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Why are you not an atheist?

Are you an atheist or agnostic? (if you are a Deist, vote no)

  • Yes

    Votes: 15 39.5%
  • No

    Votes: 23 60.5%

  • Total voters
    38

PureX

Veteran Member
Indeed, those are proper questions to ask.

We all ought to take responsibility for what we choose to believe in.
What if we choose to believe that it's not our responsibility. Some people do believe this.
Perhaps. That is not very settled a matter, and not very satisfactory for dealing with consensual reality.
Reality isn't especially consensual, from what I can tell; neither subjectively nor objectively.
Still, faith, by your definition, has rather formidable drawbacks. It leads to an affinity to self-delusion, moral and emotional fragility. It is also not very helpful in developing rational clarity or moral honesty, either. At least when compared to the alternatives.
You assume these traits will work best for everyone else because you find them to work best for you. But they are not you. What works best for them is for them to determine, not you.
Rather the love for pursuing accuracy, honesty and truth to the best of human ability, as opposed to half-truths and lies that may sometimes be of immediate confort but all too often lead us astray.
You still aren't getting the fact that your presumptions about what those are, and their value to humanity, are YOUR PRESUMPTIONS. And are based just as surely on your own biases, limitations, and "delusions" as anyone else's presumptions about truth and reality are.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
"transcendence" has to me a very precise meaning - that is, something which exists but i can't experience.
the examples of your post (and mine too) refer to "transcendentality".
god , afterlife, etc are transcendent. life, friendship, consciousness , etc are transcendental.
Well, if you define something out of existence, and then proclaim that it doesn't exist, ...
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Why are you not an atheist?

I don't find any positive reality in Atheism/Agnosticism. I believe, Atheism has no basis, please.
Others are welcome to believe in whatever they think suits them with reason and arguments, if any, or without them, please.
Regards
Anybody from the Atheism/Agnosticism who find Atheism having a positive basis , please.
Regards
 

1213

Well-Known Member
You do realize that atheist simply state that they have no evidence to believe that a god(s) does exist, NOT that god doesn't exist , right?

I understand that they want to represent themselves that way, because it is easier, but in practice they deny the existence of God. Otherwise they would be agnostics.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
I understand that they want to represent themselves that way, because it is easier, but in practice they deny the existence of God. Otherwise they would be agnostics.

Nope, that's not the case. An atheist hasn't enough evidence to believe in any god. An agnostic views the evidence and isn't sure if they believe in any god.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
What if we choose to believe that it's not our responsibility. Some people do believe this.

I don't see how they can truly avoid such a responsibility, although I am well aware that many try fiercely and, to the best of my understanding, sincerely.

The chips still fall where they may. Reality does not seem spare people due to their creeds - and it certainly does not spare those who suffer the consequences of said creeds.

Reality isn't especially consensual, from what I can tell; neither subjectively nor objectively.

It might be a good thing if it were not, or it might not. But plenty is consensual enough, including several ecological and demographic parameters that can't be in good faith overlooked.

You assume these traits will work best for everyone else because you find them to work best for you. But they are not you. What works best for them is for them to determine, not you.

Sure. As soon as they find a way to live in a world of their own where their mistakes do not affect me, that is.

Until then, we are all in the same figurative boat, for better or worse.

You still aren't getting the fact that your presumptions about what those are, and their value to humanity, are YOUR PRESUMPTIONS. And are based just as surely on your own biases, limitations, and "delusions" as anyone else's presumptions about truth and reality are.
Sorry, that shoe does not fit me all that well. The challenge exists, but it must be faced upfront, not avoided.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I understand that they want to represent themselves that way, because it is easier, but in practice they deny the existence of God. Otherwise they would be agnostics.
In practice, a god that leaves no evidence must be treated as non-existent, regardless of any sincere efforts at agnosticism.
 

qaz

Member
Well, if you define something out of existence, and then proclaim that it doesn't exist, ...

i defined transcendence as "out of experience" , not existence.
i personally don't believe in anything that you can't experience, so, yes, to me (and to logic*) existence and experience do coincide.
methodologically speaking, i find the concept of transcendence an unnecessary and unuseful postulate.

*do you even agree that having faith in a god is not logical? otherwise we were not here talking about that.
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
i defined transcendence as "out of experience" , not existence.
i personally don't believe in anything that you can't experience, so, ...
You have effectively defined it as non-existent.
... yes, to me (and to logic*) existence and experience do coincide.
So only that which you can experience, exists? That doesn't sound very logical to me.
... methodologically speaking, i find the concept of transcendence an unnecessary and unuseful postulate.
That's just a personal bias, not logic.
do you even agree that having faith in a god is not logical? otherwise we were not here talking about that.
Faith is not only logical, it's necessary to human survival. And faith in 'god' is a particularly effective strategy in that it is so broadly applicable. For both those reasons I would say that practicing faith in "God" is both logical and beneficial. BUT, it also depends on the ideal of "God" one chooses to place that faith, in. Some god-ideals are far more reasonable and positively effecting than others.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I'm not an atheist for many reasons, many of which I shared.

I've found peace and joy blending Catholicism, Buddhism, Shamanism, Shintoism, and Hindu Asceticism together.

I also watched documentaries where people give eye witness accounts of miraculous healings from a pilgrimage, eye witnesses of the vision at Fatima Portugal, and read about the medical Bureau at Lourdes which certifies miracles that are of an incurable disease, instantaneous healing, complete healing, and no medical or scientific explanation.

I've read testimonies from Doctor's and Scientists similar to what this scientist would say:
This Agnostic Scientist Converted After Witnessing a Miracle at Lourdes | ChurchPOP

"The alleged apparitions at Lourdes were reported to have taken place between 11 February and 16 July 1858. After this time, reports of apparently miraculous cures began to accumulate, prompting calls for the Roman Catholic Church to recognise these events as miracles. The earliest investigations of these cases were carried out by an Episcopal Commission of Inquiry led by Canon Germain Baradère and reporting directly to Mgr Laurence, bishop of Tarbes.

In 1859, Professor Henri Vergez from the Faculty of Medicine at Montpellier was appointed medical consultant to the Episcopal Commission of Inquiry. Vergez's views were often at odds with those of his clerical colleagues. Vergez decided that only eight of the early cases were genuinely inexplicable.[1]

In 1883 a body called the Bureau des Constatations Médicales was established by doctors affiliated with the sanctuary. This was the forerunner of the current Medical Bureau. Its first titular head was the nobleman Baron Dunot de Saint-Maclou, and the Bureau was housed at the residence of the Garaison Fathers in Lourdes. Following the establishment of the Bureau des Constatations Médicales, the number of recognised cures dropped dramatically, from 143 in 1883 to only 83 in 1884.[2]

Dunot de Saint-Maclou died in 1891 and was succeeded by Dr. Gustave Boissarie who headed the Medical Bureau until 1914, and met with the French author Émile Zola when he visited Lourdes in August 1892. Dr. Bonamy, a character in Zola's 1894 novel Lourdes, is unflatteringly based on Boissarie. Boissarie wrote a celebrated book, L'Histoire Médicale de Lourdes in 1891, which was praised by Pope Leo XIII. Boissarie moved the offices of the Bureau to accommodation beneath the right ramp of the Upper Basilica, where he met with people who claimed to have been cured.[3]

In 1905, Pope Pius X decreed that claims of miraculous cures at Lourdes should "submit to a proper process", in other words, to be rigorously investigated. At his instigation, the current Lourdes Medical Bureau was formed.

In 2011, the cure of a French man is under further examination to determine officially whether another miraculous cure has taken place. Twenty doctors from the medical bureau have concluded that the formerly paralysed man's recovery, which occurred in 2002, was 'remarkable'

Lourdes Medical Bureau - Wikipedia

There's many other testimonies like that in modern history.

I believe Padre pio, 20th century stigmatic priest, Franciscan Friar, and canonized Saint, worked the miracles that are attributed to him:
The Most Unbelievable Miracles of St. Padre Pio

I suppose it could all be a work of fiction. I was not there.
I do indeed sympathize with atheists. There is a lot of religious hysteria and nonsense out there. God does a very poor job of shepherding and guiding his flock. There is a lot of corruption amongst religious people, and much scandal, deception, and atrocities. I'm very skeptic.

So, why am I not an atheist? The biggest reason is because I was miserable and hopeless as an atheist. I gave up on life, didn't feel equipped to care for myself without a supernatural guide, and attempted suicide, breaking multiple bones and winding up in a wheelchair for 10 weeks, and fortunate to not be paralyzed for life.

If I was an atheist, I would not only be suicidal again, but would be more selfish. For instance, there were many times I wanted to tell a lie, wanted to abuse drugs, wanted to steal etc. but I didn't because I had the inner conviction that it would offend God, and the supernatural spirits that I'm devoted to, as well as harm my soul.

I also have done a lot of volunteer work at missions in the ghetto, feeding the hungry and giving clothing and what not to the needy, as a result of my inner convictions. I have given away money and other items, because of my belief that it was pleasing to supernatural entities.

One big reason I'm not an atheist is because prayer for me has been sometimes euphoric, blissful, peaceful, joyful, and transforming. I have often felt like other spirits were influencing my thoughts, words, and emotions...the happiest day of my life was march 19 2018, and nothing good happened that day externally. The joy and euphoria was entirely grace and spiritual ecstasy received through prayer.

It could all be BS, and simply endorphins and dopamine being released in the brain...of course I am skeptic, but I found what makes me happy. If I am mistaken about the existence of Heavenly beings, once I'm dead, I won't regret the time spent in prayer or being mistaken.

And maybe...just maybe, there will be reward on the other side...


So, why aren't you an atheist?
Thanks, it is good to hear why you are not an atheist, you having been one...
It is good to hear the reasons because lately I have been wishing that I could be an atheist...
But I cannot be an atheist because there is too much evidence that God exists... :rolleyes:
But it would be much easier to be an atheist. :)

I do not like religion, but I have to do the right thing, so I will keep believing.
Also, I am afraid of what could happen if I reject God now, since God knows I was a Baha'i...
I am afraid of what might happen to me in the afterlife.
I know I am not supposed to believe in God for a reward and I don't, but I do not want to be punished either.... :eek:
I have just been in a sorry way lately. :(

There will be a reward on the other side, I know that, but I do not want that reward, partly because i am so mad at God :mad: for making me go through this life, which has been no picnic for me... :(

But also, I do not want to live forever, because I cannot imagine anything joyful since I have never experienced much joy.

Long story short, I do not think it is fair for God to expect us to believe that the afterlife will be so glorious with no way to verify that. :oops: I believe in it anyway, I just wish I had a brochure. o_O

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Thanks, it is good to hear why you are not an atheist, you having been one...
It is good to hear the reasons because lately I have been wishing that I could be an atheist...
But I cannot be an atheist because there is too much evidence that God exists... :rolleyes:
But it would be much easier to be an atheist. :)

I do not like religion, but I have to do the right thing, so I will keep believing.
Also, I am afraid of what could happen if I reject God now, since God knows I was a Baha'i...
I am afraid of what might happen to me in the afterlife.
I know I am not supposed to believe in God for a reward and I don't, but I do not want to be punished either.... :eek:
I have just been in a sorry way lately. :(

There will be a reward on the other side, I know that, but I do not want that reward, partly because i am so mad at God :mad: for making me go through this life, which has been no picnic for me... :(

But also, I do not want to live forever, because I cannot imagine anything joyful since I have never experienced much joy.

Long story short, I do not think it is fair for God to expect us to believe that the afterlife will be so glorious with no way to verify that. :oops: I believe in it anyway, I just wish I had a brochure. o_O

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329
I get angry at God as well. I tried to end my life by jumping off the building. I broke my back in two places, cracked my knee, broke my ribs, broke my arm, broke my pelvis, tore my ACL, tore my Meniscus in both knees, had a concussion, and I'm lucky I didn't put myself in a wheelchair for the rest of my life.

Life is a cross, and an affliction. I can't wait to die, but that's going to be on God's timing not mine.

We have to suffer in this life, and sometimes we feel completely abandoned by God.

That is part of the Cross we must carry!

You will experience great joy on the other side, and God will reward you for your pain! :)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I get angry at God as well. I tried to end my life by jumping off the building. I broke my back in two places, cracked my knee, broke my ribs, broke my arm, broke my pelvis, tore my ACL, tore my Meniscus in both knees, had a concussion, and I'm lucky I didn't put myself in a wheelchair for the rest of my life.
I hope all of that healed. I have been suicidal many times, but the last time was in 2014 and I finally turned to God after that, reluctantly so because I am still angry. :mad:
Life is a cross, and an affliction. I can't wait to die, but that's going to be on God's timing not mine.
I know it is, but my beef is that it isn't that way for everyone. :rolleyes:
We have to suffer in this life, and sometimes we feel completely abandoned by God.

That is part of the Cross we must carry!
Some of us feel abandoned, but not all do... :oops:
You will experience great joy on the other side, and God will reward you for your pain! :)
I think that will happen but I don't know how I am going to endure the next 30 or so years, if I live as long as my mother did. I guess I am going to have to try to change something about my life. o_O
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
I hope all of that healed. I have been suicidal many times, but the last time was in 2014 and I finally turned to God after that, reluctantly so because I am still angry. :mad:

I know it is, but my beef is that it isn't that way for everyone. :rolleyes:

Some of us feel abandoned, but not all do... :oops:

I think that will happen but I don't know how I am going to endure the next 30 or so years, if I live as long as my mother did. I guess I am going to have to try to change something about my life. o_O
Most people that seem happy really are not. There were a lot of comedians who are the life of the party, and who seemed very happy, who died of drug overdoses or suicide.

Some of them were vomiting before they got on stage.

Things are not what they seem. Most people are suffering.

Most of the world doesn't even have running water... could you imagine not having a working sink, toilet, or a shower?

Do you have hands, arms, legs,? some people don't.

I'm assuming you have eyes, so you can see.

Many people do not have the ability to see.

I'm sure if you look at things fairly, you will see that you're actually very lucky! :)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Most people that seem happy really are not. There were a lot of comedians who are the life of the party, and who seemed very happy, who died of drug overdoses or suicide.

Some of them were vomiting before they got on stage.

Things are not what they seem. Most people are suffering.

Most of the world doesn't even have running water... could you imagine not having a working sink, toilet, or a shower?

Do you have hands, arms, legs,? some people don't.

I'm assuming you have eyes, so you can see.

Many people do not have the ability to see.

I'm sure if you look at things fairly, you will see that you're actually very lucky! :)
Thanks again... You always make me feel better. :)

You are absolutely right, I have nothing to complain about, at least not now that I have overcome a lot of what I had to overcome earlier in my life, all my psychological problems and many of my spiritual problems...

I have my health and a good job and three houses and more money than I will ever need and a good husband. In a few months I will have everything I own paid for in full so I will have no debt at all... I should be happy, if material things were the source of happiness, but they aren't.

If I look at the entire world, many people are suffering, but I compare myself with the people I am surrounded by at work who all seem so happy. I think most of them are happier than me but I also think much of that is superficial so I do not want that kind of happiness.

But maybe all I am seeing is the surface and all of them are not as happy as I think; I know that some are though... But I do not think they will be better off in the afterlife because those who suffer most attain the greatest perfection. Also, we can be more compassionate than those who have not suffered.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Thanks again... You always make me feel better. :)

You are absolutely right, I have nothing to complain about, at least not now that I have overcome a lot of what I had to overcome earlier in my life, all my psychological problems and many of my spiritual problems...

I have my health and a good job and three houses and more money than I will ever need and a good husband. In a few months I will have everything I own paid for in full so I will have no debt at all... I should be happy, if material things were the source of happiness, but they aren't.

If I look at the entire world, many people are suffering, but I compare myself with the people I am surrounded by at work who all seem so happy. I think most of them are happier than me but I also think much of that is superficial so I do not want that kind of happiness.

But maybe all I am seeing is the surface and all of them are not as happy as I think; I know that some are though... But I do not think they will be better off in the afterlife because those who suffer most attain the greatest perfection. Also, we can be more compassionate than those who have not suffered.
Yes, suffering leads to Greater spiritual Perfection and greater reward in the next life.

Sometimes, the people that God loves the most must suffer the most
 
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