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Why aren’t we learning?

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
OK. Then I did misunderstand you. My version of Christianity taught that the world would be literally destroyed in a fiery apocalypse. Maybe a different choice of words next time, like the world will be changed?

Thanks for that. That helps me to understand your worldview and why you reminded me of the JWs that came to the door. Can you tell me what you think that they lost interest in me when I told them that I disagreed that the world was a terrible place and that as I told you, man is in for a rough patch with climate change and this widespread trend toward authoritarianism, but that I expect humanity and life to survive it and come back after a sharp correction?

If you make house calls, is that something that you would do as well? It made me feel like they thought they had nothing to say to say to an optimist, which I thought was strange. I knew that I couldn't impact them either, but that wasn't a reason to stop talking for me like it seemed to be for them. I never mentioned that I was an atheist, and if they had asked, I would have told them I was Catholic like most of my Mexican neighbors.
By the way, the person that first spoke to me at the door, I sent her away the first time she came. No uncertain terms. By the way, she spoke good English but had a heavy Spanish accent. Then, believe it or not, my husband invited her back next time she covered the neighborhood and I wasn't home. She left a book for me to read. I read it without telling her, was impressed with the life changes people made when they studied but I still argued with her. I was a heavy smoker and couldn't stop but I read how people stopped certain unhealthful habits like smoking as they continued studying with Jehovah's Witnesses. She finally said something that made me decide to study with her and her husband. Part of what I am trying to tell you is that there are publications the Watchtower publishes that give an overview about what the Bible teaches. They are guidebooks. And what I believe. If you go to www.jw.org you will get some further information on many subjects.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
By the way, the person that first spoke to me at the door, I sent her away the first time she came. No uncertain terms. By the way, she spoke good English but had a heavy Spanish accent. Then, believe it or not, my husband invited her back next time she covered the neighborhood and I wasn't home. She left a book for me to read. I read it without telling her, was impressed with the life changes people made when they studied but I still argued with her. I was a heavy smoker and couldn't stop but I read how people stopped certain unhealthful habits like smoking as they continued studying with Jehovah's Witnesses. She finally said something that made me decide to study with her and her husband. Part of what I am trying to tell you is that there are publications the Watchtower publishes that give an overview about what the Bible teaches. They are guidebooks. And what I believe. If you go to www.jw.org you will get some further information on many subjects.
Thank you, but I've got a worldview (atheistic humanism) that has served me well for decades now and with which I am content.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Humanity has come a long way scientifically. We are able to reach for the stars and communicate instantly over thousands of miles.

Yet mankind has not advanced in the social or spiritual realms. Wars have plagued us for centuries and religions continue to conflict.

Why aren’t we learning lessons from our past? We have billions of religious people but no peace.

Why has humanity failed to progress socially and spiritually but only materially?
The way I see it is that we have two huge cognitive impediments to get past. The first huge impediment is that the people that want to be 'in charge', and that are constantly acting to gain that responsibility are exactly the people that we should never allow to be in charge of anything. The very fact that they want this control so intently is very strong evidence that if they get the control they crave, they will only abuse it. Time and time and time again we humans have allowed those who will do anything to become our 'leaders' to get that control. And once they have gained it, they have used it to cause everyone else great suffering and harm. And yet as soon as one of these despots falls, there are three more vying to take his place. And we will stupidly allow them to do so. Why can't we stop doing this? Why can't we set up a system that would identify and preclude these F'ed up control freaks from gaining positions of social responsibility. We can see them coming a mile away, so it really shouldn't be that difficult.

The second gigantic impediment to human ethical advancement is the blindness caused by our own fear, greed, and stupidity. We continue to compete with each other for everything we need in life to survive and thrive, and we continue to pile it up far beyond the level of our need, and then we continue to guard, hoard, and protect it even as we watch the humans right next to us suffer and die for the lack of it. This is INSANE behavior and yet we cannot see the insanity of it through the blindness of our own fear, greed, and stupidity. Everyone's life would be so much easier and better off if we simply stopped competing with each other for everything and began cooperating with each other toward the goal of increasing everyone's collective well-being. But we just can't seem to overcome our fear of being left without. And because we cannot, billions of us are being left without. How is it not obvious to us that cooperation is far more efficient and effective than competition? I don't know. It should be obvious. But it's just not.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The way I see it is that we have two huge cognitive impediments to get past. The first huge impediment is that the people that want to be 'in charge', and that are constantly acting to gain that responsibility are exactly the people that we should never allow to be in charge of anything. The very fact that they want this control so intently is very strong evidence that if they get the control they crave, they will only abuse it. Time and time and time again we humans have allowed those who will do anything to become our 'leaders' to get that control. And once they have gained it, they have used it to cause everyone else great suffering and harm. And yet as soon as one of these despots falls, there are three more vying to take his place. And we will stupidly allow them to do so. Why can't we stop doing this? Why can't we set up a system that would identify and preclude these F'ed up control freaks from gaining positions of social responsibility. We can see them coming a mile away, so it really shouldn't be that difficult.

The second gigantic impediment to human ethical advancement is the blindness caused by our own fear, greed, and stupidity. We continue to compete with each other for everything we need in life to survive and thrive, and we continue to pile it up far beyond the level of our need, and then we continue to guard, hoard, and protect it even as we watch the humans right next to us suffer and die for the lack of it. This is INSANE behavior and yet we cannot see the insanity of it through the blindness of our own fear, greed, and stupidity. Everyone's life would be so much easier and better off if we simply stopped competing with each other for everything and began cooperating with each other toward the goal of increasing everyone's collective well-being. But we just can't seem to overcome our fear of being left without. And because we cannot, billions of us are being left without. How is it not obvious to us that cooperation is far more efficient and effective than competition? I don't know. It should be obvious. But it's just not.
Yes, insatiable greed and the lust for power are human failings that hold us back. Earlier on this thread, I worded a similar sentiment like this:

"If we [humanists] could only wrestle control from the authoritarians, underregulated capitalists, and regressive religions, we could reshape the world. We could end war, feed the hungry, control population growth, reverse climate change, and mitigate or prevent poverty." All of those apart from humanism exist to concentrate wealth and power.

It is common knowledge that there is a spectrum of people both intellectually and morally. There seems to be two main strains of human beings - selfishly antisocial people and socially minded people. Whether it is cultural or biological evolution, some of us are simply not connected to the rest of humanity. I'm leaning toward there being an element of both cultural and biological evolution involved.

We saw these two types depicted in The Lord of The Flies and also in Gremlins, where one group seems culturally evolved and another is primitive, selfish, violent and brutal. We see that in politics, especially American politics these days, with Biden and Trump serving as archetypes for these two, and the MAGA members of House Representatives behaving like gremlins post-watering as their Democratic colleagues sit shaking their heads in disbelief.

We saw it again during the vaccine and mask wars - one group of scientifically literate (or at least not antiscience) community minded people thinking about herd immunity and a group of watered gremlins selfishly acting out in public.

These types aren't new, but it feels like the bad gremlins are more prevalent than in the past, or more vocal, or more organized. They're a palpable threat today. Yes, we grew up in the Cold War years, which constituted a nuclear threat, but this is so much worse today what with democracy close to collapsing in the States and climate change dwarfing even actual nuclear war as a threat to life on earth.

I just don't identify with any of that. Such people are so different from me that I feel like I belong to a different and more evolved strain of humanity than they do. And increasingly, I resent having to share a planet with them.

We live humbly and want little. There's nothing that I want that I don't have. There's nothing that I want to do that I can't do. I literally want no more money or power. Neither have any allure. When I first started earning money as a physician, I did spend a lot, but that due to the novelty of having money, which eventually got boring as well.

As soon as I could afford to retire, I did. That was fifteen years ago (age 55), and most of my similarly aged colleagues are still working to pay for their big homes. I wanted that once and had it, too, but as I alluded, I outgrew it and downsized my life.

Maybe that's the result of my profession and career. During my working years, I had both more money and more power than most people. I wrote "orders" on medical charts and others carried them out. I was self-employed and didn't take orders from a boss. Yet even as a child, I never wanted anything more than personal autonomy, not control over others, and I had no dreams of being rich, just comfortable. So who knows why I feel as I do. I don't.

It's interesting to me how you and I can agree on matters like these and then have such different conversations about gods and empiricism, where we disagree about virtually everything. That's rare for me. I find most people compatible or incompatible with my thoughts on both, which kind of supports the idea that there are two strains of people.

There's another poster on RF with whom I have the same mixed experience, but it's the other way around. He's a MAGA atheist. His comments on science versus religion resemble mine, but his political opinions make me shake my head.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Thank you, but I've got a worldview (atheistic humanism) that has served me well for decades now and with which I am content.
OK, before I studied I did not have the same viewpoint as you. Be that as it may, could be your attitude was why the Witnesses did not revisit you. Similar to a Catholic or Jew or Muslim or anyone was satisfied with their worldview and did not want to examine what the Bible says.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Why not? Maybe you use the word differently than I do. For me, spirituality has nothing to do with spirits.

I feel connected to nature, a feeling that also inspires awe, gratitude, and a sense of mystery. An informed experience of the night sky begins with an understanding of what that drop of starlight signifies about its source and the times and distances involved to reach my retina and announce its existence, as well as understanding our connection to it as the source of the heavy elements that comprise our bodies and surroundings. And then comes the affective component - the spiritual experience which I've described as a blend of a sense of connection, belonging, mystery, awe, and gratitude. That's what an authentic spiritual experience is for me.

I cherish the beasts and the environment. My sense of connection to the rest of humanity has taken a hit in the last few years watching people acting out about elections and health mandates, but that reflects a decadent and decaying culture in one country. I still feel connected to posterity. As indicated, I expect man to move into a better place culturally after a major correction that lasts for several decades, perhaps twenty (two centuries), but perhaps many fewer.

And there's that darkness, that pessimist, that nihilism. You're thankful that the world is not going to last? How about asking your god to save it rather than celebrating apocalypse and the extinction of life on earth?

So, do you consider yourself a spiritual person? You aren't by my definition of the word given your extreme pessimism and apparent lack of connection to our world and nature. Your loyalty is to another world you believe exists outside of nature and to an unseen deity. It sounds like you're anxiously awaiting death. I know that many Christians are. It's paradoxical to me to hear people refer to mindsets like that as spiritual. I liken it to somebody waiting at a bus stop to be taken away to a better place.

I assume that you don't like reading these opinions, but I can assure you that they're carefully considered, sincerely believed, and constructively offered. It would be nice for you to feel that missing sense of connection to and belonging in our world you once enjoyed and restore your hope for the future of the planet rather than hoping for its destruction.
Just wondering if you have a thought, concept, or opinion as to what happens to you or anyone when they die?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
could be your attitude was why the Witnesses did not revisit you.
Did you mean why they left so quickly (they've been back once, but I didn't take time to speak to them since). My wife answered the door and said, "No, thank you" to them before I knew they had been there.

But maybe my attitude was off-putting to them. It seemed so. The discussion lasted less than five minutes. My attitude was cheerful, I was cordial, and my message optimistic.
Similar to a Catholic or Jew or Muslim or anyone was satisfied with their worldview and did not want to examine what the Bible says.
We never got that far. One of the first things they said was that the world was in a bad way. I agreed that many have miserable lives, but also that there have never been so many living good lives as there are today, and that I was happy. It ended immediately thereafter with a friendly goodbye from them, which surprised me.
Just wondering if you have a thought, concept, or opinion as to what happens to you or anyone when they die?
I consider it likely that the time after death will feel about the same as the time before birth.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Did you mean why they left so quickly (they've been back once, but I didn't take time to speak to them since). My wife answered the door and said, "No, thank you" to them before I knew they had been there.

But maybe my attitude was off-putting to them. It seemed so. The discussion lasted less than five minutes. My attitude was cheerful, I was cordial, and my message optimistic.

We never got that far. One of the first things they said was that the world was in a bad way. I agreed that many have miserable lives, but also that there have never been so many living good lives as there are today, and that I was happy. It ended immediately thereafter with a friendly goodbye from them, which surprised me.

I consider it likely that the time after death will feel about the same as the time before birth.
So it does not seem likely that you expect to see any change on the earth. Such as men not going to war and killing each other, things like that?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Did you mean why they left so quickly (they've been back once, but I didn't take time to speak to them since). My wife answered the door and said, "No, thank you" to them before I knew they had been there.

But maybe my attitude was off-putting to them. It seemed so. The discussion lasted less than five minutes. My attitude was cheerful, I was cordial, and my message optimistic.

We never got that far. One of the first things they said was that the world was in a bad way. I agreed that many have miserable lives, but also that there have never been so many living good lives as there are today, and that I was happy. It ended immediately thereafter with a friendly goodbye from them, which surprised me.

I consider it likely that the time after death will feel about the same as the time before birth.
By the way, you said your message was optimistic. In what way? People are suffering now, and have been for a long time. Do you disagree with that?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So it does not seem likely that you expect to see any change on the earth. Such as men not going to war and killing each other, things like that?
That is incorrect. I expect significant changes to occur over the next few centuries just as has occurred over the past few centuries. I expect the immediate future to be worse followed by better.
you said your message was optimistic. In what way? People are suffering now, and have been for a long time. Do you disagree with that?
No, I don't disagree with that, but as I indicated, I do expect that after several decades of decline, the human condition will improve.

We used to have a prolific poster who I haven't seen on RF in years, an Aussie woman and Jehovah's Witness, who used to chastise me for making comments like that. She would ask me how dare I be happy when so many are suffering. She also didn't see anything good in mankind or any reason to be optimistic for the future.

So, you, she, and the JWs that came to my door all share that same outlook - extreme pessimism for mankind. It must originate with your denomination's teachings to its adherents. Where else would you all have gotten that idea?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Yes, insatiable greed and the lust for power are human failings that hold us back. Earlier on this thread, I worded a similar sentiment like this:

"If we [humanists] could only wrestle control from the authoritarians, underregulated capitalists, and regressive religions, we could reshape the world. We could end war, feed the hungry, control population growth, reverse climate change, and mitigate or prevent poverty." All of those apart from humanism exist to concentrate wealth and power.

It is common knowledge that there is a spectrum of people both intellectually and morally. There seems to be two main strains of human beings - selfishly antisocial people and socially minded people. Whether it is cultural or biological evolution, some of us are simply not connected to the rest of humanity. I'm leaning toward there being an element of both cultural and biological evolution involved.

We saw these two types depicted in The Lord of The Flies and also in Gremlins, where one group seems culturally evolved and another is primitive, selfish, violent and brutal. We see that in politics, especially American politics these days, with Biden and Trump serving as archetypes for these two, and the MAGA members of House Representatives behaving like gremlins post-watering as their Democratic colleagues sit shaking their heads in disbelief.

We saw it again during the vaccine and mask wars - one group of scientifically literate (or at least not antiscience) community minded people thinking about herd immunity and a group of watered gremlins selfishly acting out in public.

These types aren't new, but it feels like the bad gremlins are more prevalent than in the past, or more vocal, or more organized. They're a palpable threat today. Yes, we grew up in the Cold War years, which constituted a nuclear threat, but this is so much worse today what with democracy close to collapsing in the States and climate change dwarfing even actual nuclear war as a threat to life on earth.

I just don't identify with any of that. Such people are so different from me that I feel like I belong to a different and more evolved strain of humanity than they do. And increasingly, I resent having to share a planet with them.

We live humbly and want little. There's nothing that I want that I don't have. There's nothing that I want to do that I can't do. I literally want no more money or power. Neither have any allure. When I first started earning money as a physician, I did spend a lot, but that due to the novelty of having money, which eventually got boring as well.

As soon as I could afford to retire, I did. That was fifteen years ago (age 55), and most of my similarly aged colleagues are still working to pay for their big homes. I wanted that once and had it, too, but as I alluded, I outgrew it and downsized my life.

Maybe that's the result of my profession and career. During my working years, I had both more money and more power than most people. I wrote "orders" on medical charts and others carried them out. I was self-employed and didn't take orders from a boss. Yet even as a child, I never wanted anything more than personal autonomy, not control over others, and I had no dreams of being rich, just comfortable. So who knows why I feel as I do. I don't.

It's interesting to me how you and I can agree on matters like these and then have such different conversations about gods and empiricism, where we disagree about virtually everything. That's rare for me. I find most people compatible or incompatible with my thoughts on both, which kind of supports the idea that there are two strains of people.

There's another poster on RF with whom I have the same mixed experience, but it's the other way around. He's a MAGA atheist. His comments on science versus religion resemble mine, but his political opinions make me shake my head.
I disagree with you a little bit on this as well. But only in that think it’s not so much that there are two different kinds of people, but that we all have both kinds of people within us, and the difference comes from which one we choose to “feed”.

I am an artist, and so have never had much money or power in life. And I still don’t. But then I’ve never really wanted or needed much money or power. So it was ok. And it still is. I have always been able to achieve what I was trying to achieve without much money or power because what I was trying to achieve was beyond the reach of money and power (personal creative expression). But I still had to learn about the value of others, and why my life and well being is intrinsically tied to theirs, and likewise. And I have learned this. Because I chose not to turn away. And I think that’s the key.

As a society we need to recognize that some people among us are going to choose to turn away from the reality of our collective well being, and mutual responsibility. And that is their right, I suppose. But we are fools to then allow those people to have any sort or special control over the well being of our human collective, because they will inevitably abuse it, and abuse us as a result. So although they have the right to choose to be selfish and self-centered in life, they do not have any right to harm the rest of us in that pursuit. Which they WILL do if we do not stop them from gaining control over us.

And this also applies to our own selves. Because we all have that selfish individual within us, as a part of us. So that it is our responsibility to reign that part of us in when we’re interacting with our fellow humans. And this is the really big lesson we are not learning. We are not recognizing and appreciating our responsibility to control our own selves for the sake of our human collective. We are not seeing that their well-being is directly related to our well-being. That when we cheat or abuse them we are also harming ourselves, and becoming dumb animals instead of human beings.
 
God created man to take care of the earth. Genesis 2:5 Man also has a mind is able to think because God created man in his image. God wanted man to understand that he is the one to be obeyed. So God gave man the first test to see if he could obey God, man failed it. So all men are under a trial base's. Because we live in a world that is controlled by satan 1 John 5:19. We are tempted by many evil things. Majority of man has chosen to fall into those temptations. Only those who seek God and fall from those temptations will learn what peace and love is. Those who are of God, don't have guns, get into fights and wars that hurt others. Those who are of God live a happy life.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
God created man to take care of the earth. Genesis 2:5 Man also has a mind is able to think because God created man in his image. God wanted man to understand that he is the one to be obeyed. So God gave man the first test to see if he could obey God, man failed it. So all men are under a trial base's. Because we live in a world that is controlled by satan 1 John 5:19. We are tempted by many evil things. Majority of man has chosen to fall into those temptations. Only those who seek God and fall from those temptations will learn what peace and love is. Those who are of God, don't have guns, get into fights and wars that hurt others. Those who are of God live a happy life.
... until they become the victims of those who have guns, get into fights, and hurt others.

The lesson being that if we are to be saves from ourselves, we need to do it together.
 

Tomef

Well-Known Member
Humanity has come a long way scientifically. We are able to reach for the stars and communicate instantly over thousands of miles.

Yet mankind has not advanced in the social or spiritual realms. Wars have plagued us for centuries and religions continue to conflict.

Why aren’t we learning lessons from our past? We have billions of religious people but no peace.

Why has humanity failed to progress socially and spiritually but only materially?
People need to be willing to let go of the stories they cling to and engage with the world more openly. That requires some commitment, though.
 

vijeno

Active Member
We evolved to survive and reproduce, not to be peaceful and loving.

We should still cultivate those values - our survival as a race might depend on them - but don't count on your brain to always be the most helpful with that.
 
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