Why Aren't you a Libertarian?

[Revoltingest]

At this point I'm not sure what you support. I'm asking if you would support coerced servitude... e.g. where the person agrees to serve as needed, but only because it was a condition of getting a job, getting a place to live, getting rid of a major debt, etc.

I don't think you & I would agree on what "coerced" means.

 

[Valjean]

Libertarians have never produced a working example of a society based in its principles. Until that happens why become a Libertarian?

How about Somalia?

 

[Revoltingest]

How about Somalia?

Recognizing that the OP is about the Libertarian Party, which advocates constitutional
government, we see that Somalia uses a different governmental & economic model.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't think you & I would agree on what "coerced" means.

Is that your way of saying that you'd be okay with a company drafting people into its private army the way I described... or at least not propose prohibiting this by law?

 

[Revoltingest]

Is that your way of saying that you'd be okay with a company drafting people into its private army the way I described... or at least not propose prohibiting this by law?

What a tedious way to bicker.
It doesn't interest me.

 

[Stevicus]

That's a lot to respond to.
I'll pick the union question.
Treat unions the same as business....
- Allow their formation
- No law giving neither unbalanced power over the other.
- Prevent monopolies

Would you consider a labor union to be a monopoly?

This is one of my favorite movie scenes of all time. Tell me what you think, from a libertarian point of view.

F.I.S.T. (1978) - IMDb

I think it's the only way to deal with big business, as they're speaking in the only language they understand.

They're not going to listen to bleeding heart liberals or pleas of "Oh please pay us a living wage, big business person."

There are some things that capitalists just don't seem to understand, and I've always wondered why. Perhaps you can explain it to me.

As for which has the greater power to pose a danger to us, we'll
have to agree to disagree whether it's government or business.
Your experience & mine differ too greatly.

In this country, it's often hard to tell where government ends and where business begins. They seem so closely intermeshed with each other.

 

[Revoltingest]

Would you consider a labor union to be a monopoly?

There's no general answer.
As with companies, it would depend upon the extent of control of the market.

Btw, I'll pass on the video.
Suffice to say that I eschew violence.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What a tedious way to bicker.
It doesn't interest me.

If you want something different, you could answer my questions about company towns.

 

[Nakosis]

But they are. What libertarians see as detrimental is interference with the market. It is not that they just want to remove detrimental regulations it os that they believe most regulations are detrimental.

That's what you believe. I can't defend non-specific accusations.

However here is a link to several people answering this question.

https://www.quora.com/What-regulation-do-libertarians-advocate

 

[Jollybear]

Define "harm."

Harm can be in a few areas. Robbing others freedom or rights. Rape, murder, theft.

And consider being the first libertarian iin this thread to respond to my post about company towns.

Company towns?

Because the cost for care of serious conditions is often overwhelming for one person, but manageable when it's pooled.

If health insurence companies wer abolished then the medic field would have no choice but to lower there costs. Either that or go out of business or severely downsize.

Because having a single entity purchasing all the health care services allows for negotiation strength and economies of scale that would be impossible for an individual, so the same quality of health care will be cheaper.

It wouldnt be just an individual negotiating though, it be all the middle class and poor and even SOME of the rich.

Because health care often deals with life-or-death situations, so a laissez-faire approach will often lead to situations where individuals can be coerced.

Not if the individuals are ALL the middle class and poor and some of the rich.

Because there are tremendous barriers to entry in the health care field, so if it was left to market forces alone, it would often result in monopolies and other market inefficiencies.

No monopoly if theres compitition. Just like compitition between grocery stores.

Because the typical American system of attaching health insurance to a person's employment can make them less free to leave the job they have for one they want more.

All the more reason to get rid of health insurence system.

... but to get back to my question: I take it that you're opposed to universal health care. How do you reconcile this with a "pro-freedom" position? Is the freedom to choose between watching your child die of cancer and living with crushing debt for the rest of your life the sort of "freedom" you're after? Personally, I think there's more freedom in another option: paying an affordable amount all the time to have health care when you need it.

I think you assume it would be "crushing debt" undet the libertarian system, for reasons in the above responses.

 

[Jollybear]

Cart before the horse thinking. If Libertarian principles worked, they would manifest themselves first, then the voters would follow in due course. But Libertarian principles haven’t mainfestly demonstrated that they work, not in the many decades since the party was founded. Blaming the market (the voters) for not buying the product the erstwhile producers wants to sell (the Libertarians) is wrong. For all the talking Libertarians do about free markets you would think they would “get it”, but they don’t seem to.

How can the libertarian principles work when there not given the chance too?

Thats like if i said i have this mighty warior of a man, hes locked in a cage, he can defiet anyone, i mean anyone, man or beast that comes against him.

But, you say no he cant. I say, yes he can, you want me to prove it and let him out? You pick the man or beast you want him to fight.

You say, no. He cant win because if he could then he already would have.

Your reasoning dont make sense. You judge it before giving it a chance to prove itself.

Thats not smart, but, the whole world is NOT very smart.

But what can i say? The whole darn world is crazy i say.

 

[Revoltingest]

How can the libertarian principles work when there not given the chance too?

Some have been given the chance, eg, gay marriage, right to a jury trial, right to abortion.
But these can go further, eg.....
- Reversing USSC attacks on jury trial rights.
- Expanding bodily autonomy rights beyond abortion.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Harm can be in a few areas. Robbing others freedom or rights. Rape, murder, theft.

Yes, all those are no-brainers. How about coercion? How about market manipulation?

Company towns?

Company towns: post 140

If health insurence companies wer abolished then the medic field would have no choice but to lower there costs. Either that or go out of business or severely downsize.

They'd lower by magic?

And abolishing health insurance companies sure doesn't sound libertarian to me.

It wouldnt be just an individual negotiating though, it be all the middle class and poor and even SOME of the rich.

So health care recipients would have to organize into cartels?

Not if the individuals are ALL the middle class and poor and some of the rich.

... in a cartel.

No monopoly if theres compitition. Just like compitition between grocery stores.

Natural monopoly - Wikipedia

You can't buy half an MRI machine. If a town is only large enough to keep one MRI machine busy enough to be profitable, then it will only ever support one MRI clinic.

The same holds true for many different aspects of health care.

All the more reason to get rid of health insurence system.

Again: abolishing businesses is a very un-libertarian position.

I think you assume it would be "crushing debt" undet the libertarian system, for reasons in the above responses.

Your "above responses" are a mixture of anti-libertarian positions and misunderstandings of how real-world markets work.

 

[Jollybear]

Some have been given the chance, eg, gay marriage, right to a jury trial, right to abortion.
But these can go further, eg.....
- Reversing USSC attacks on jury trial rights.
- Expanding bodily autonomy rights beyond abortion.

Ok, right. So, the libertarian principles are given a slight chance. But there not permitted to have full reign, per the voters.

 

[Revoltingest]

Ok, right. So, the libertarian principles are given a slight chance. But there not permitted to have full reign, per the voters.

We'll never have anything which could be called "full reign" in this country.
We can only steer it more in our direction.

 

[Jollybear]

We'll never have anything which could be called "full reign" in this country.
We can only steer it more in our direction.

It needs to go full reign in our direction. Because our direction is the best direction.

 

[Revoltingest]

It needs to go full reign in our direction. Because our direction is the best direction.

Best for us....but most people are frightened by so much liberty.
So compromise is unavoidable.

 

[Shaul]

How can the libertarian principles work when there not given the chance too?

Thats like if i said i have this mighty warior of a man, hes locked in a cage, he can defiet anyone, i mean anyone, man or beast that comes against him.

But, you say no he cant. I say, yes he can, you want me to prove it and let him out? You pick the man or beast you want him to fight.

You say, no. He cant win because if he could then he already would have.

Your reasoning dont make sense. You judge it before giving it a chance to prove itself.

Thats not smart, but, the whole world is NOT very smart.

But what can i say? The whole darn world is crazy i say.

It isn’t anything like your analogies. Libertarians need to earn their chance by demonstrating their ideas work. If they can’t do that then they don’t deserve the privilege of governing. If Libertarians don’t understand they need to prove themselves then I guess we know why they haven’t made any headway. Politics isn’t some parlor game. Explain it to Machiavelli why Libertarians should get a “chance” without any gravitas.

 

[Jollybear]

Yes, all those are no-brainers. How about coercion? How about market manipulation?

What do you mean by coercion? Give me a scenario. And also a scenario for market manipulation.

If i understood you correctly, ill respond with this. No one needs to manipulate the market. It would be a free market. People vote businesses to prosper or die by the dollars they spend at those businesses. If a business serves well and sells a good product, then it will deserve to remain in business. No government should bail out a business or a bank or a corporation. We vote with our dollars we work hard for.

Company towns: post 140

Ok, i just read post 140. Now, your hurting my brain, making me think too hard now, lol. But, ok, here goes: if a guy buys lots of land and builds a rown and hires workers and provides for them. Why should he not be free in doing that? If some of the workers dont like it, well, there free to leave too.

Wheres the problem?

They'd lower by magic?

Yes! By pure magic. They have a magic stick. Im kidding.....no, they would be indirectly forced to lower costs to there patients. Why? Because 2 reasons: first they see MOST people wont be able to afford it, and they dont want to see them die. And second, they dont want to go out of business, so, by lowering costs, they atleast get some income comming in. Hey, puts food on the table! If i dont do surgery on mr joes bad heart, im not gonna get me some steak and potatoes tonight.

And abolishing health insurance companies sure doesn't sound libertarian to me.

Oh but it is! Remember libertarianism is about PROTECTING others from harm. And those insurences are causing more harm then good, aspeasally for freedom. You even mentioned one, people forced to stay in a job they dont want. But also healthy people giving free money away there whole lives and never needing to use the insurence. Also, like i said before, the medic field knows the insurence has big bucks, so, of course they will charge big bucks.

So health care recipients would have to organize into cartels? in a cartel.

Sure, why not. Or get signatures signed. Or videos done. There could be a representative for all of the people.

Natural monopoly - Wikipedia

You can't buy half an MRI machine. If a town is only large enough to keep one MRI machine busy enough to be profitable, then it will only ever support one MRI clinic.

The same holds true for many different aspects of health care.

Ok......i dont understand what your digging at here.

Again: abolishing businesses is a very un-libertarian position.

Not if that business is indirectly harming peoples freedom, which the insurence DOES.

Your "above responses" are a mixture of anti-libertarian positions and misunderstandings of how real-world markets work.

And thats why i need YOU to explain to me where im misunderstanding! Shoot, im listening.

 

[Jollybear]

It isn’t anything like your analogies. Libertarians need to earn their chance by demonstrating their ideas work.

How can libertarians "earn" there chance by demonstrating there ideas work when there not given a chance to denonstrate that there ideas can work? Lol

If they can’t do that then they don’t deserve the privilege of governing. If Libertarians don’t understand they need to prove themselves then I guess we know why they haven’t made any headway.

Refer back to my analogy. You want proof my warior can take on any beast or man, even multiple beasts? Just open the cage and give him the chance to prove it. So, yes, we do understand we need to prove our principles. But how can we prove it if wer not given the chance to prove it by installing it into the country for it to be tested.

This point is common sense. Just omit the word common.

Politics isn’t some parlor game.

I never said it was.

Explain it to Machiavelli why Libertarians should get a “chance” without any gravitas.

Huh?