Why Aren't you a Libertarian?

[Curious George]

Historical tidbit....
Back when the LP (Libertarian Party) was founded in 1971, we were
pro-gay marriage. Both the Democrat & Republican parties opposed it.
Even Dick Cheney was pro before Bill or Hillary Clinton.

And they should be commended for their progressive thinking here.

 

[Shad]

The bigger question i have is, how do we fix bad people? Systems, laws, regulations wont fix them. How do we fix them?

It isn't our responsibility to fix people. IF said people want help the community can lend a hand by choice. However this takes a step from the problem individual.

Because of them freedom is taken away from good people. Its not right.

Such example are merely used as excuse to power grab by many.

Good peoples time and energy and money is taken from them because of these regulations, all due to the existence of bad people in the world.

This really depends on the regulation. Some regulations are helpful such as sanitation standards in the case of restaurants.

 

[Jollybear]

In order to punish one of the bad ones, you need to have a law under which they can be punished. If you are making such laws, then you are creating regulations. It is really that simple.

Your not understanding what im saying. I agree, we need laws. Laws are regulations, yes.

But, theres certain laws that cause good peoples time, energy and money to be taken from them. This to me is not right. But these laws exist because of bad people. But, i say, just punish the bad people, dont take time, energy and money from good people.

Despite the obvious disagreement between libertarians about which regulations are excessive and which are necessary, get a whole bunch of them together and they like to pat each other on the back shouting how much they hate regulation.

Its not exactly like that. We need some laws. But some laws are designed to take everyones time, energy and money away, this includes good people. So, good people are indirectly punished for the actions of bad people. This is a legitimate problem. Its in fact the problem that bothers me the most and is the biggest reason im a libertarian. Theres more reasons, but this reason is the main kicker for me.

You will get landlords that love to complain about landlord tenet laws, you will get manufacturers who love to complain about OSHA laws, farmers who complain about FDA laws, and it seems most complain about some EPA law or another.

When it comes to all these laws, we got to ask WHY they complain. I can only speak for my own experience with laws. Im not a landlord, so i cannot speak on that. Or a farmer, ect. But, ill give you some examples ive had experience with and ill tell you why i complain about it.

Example one: dry food wearhouse i use to work. One day i was rotating the boxes of gronola. The recent dates would have to go in the back, and the later dates came forward. So, i rotated them. Plus i was doing orders.

Anyhow, to rotate, i would take the ones already on pallets or on the shelf, id take them off and place them on the floor. Then id take the knew boxes and place them on the pallets and the shelves. Then id take the old boxes and push them in front of the ones on the shelf. Id place old ones on top of the new ones on the pallets.

Anyhow, the boss came in and said FDA wont allow us to place any of the boxes on the floor, it must always be on the pallets.

So i asked, even if im rotating and there on the floor for a few minutes? They said yes.

I asked why. They said because FDA thinks bugs will bore a hole in the boxes and get at the food.

My face dropped. As if a bug cant crawl up pallets that are on the floor and go in the box now. Plus, no bugs wer in sight. Plus even if a bug came near the box, boring a hole in it is unlikely.

But, not only is this regulation STUPID, it also created a EXTRA burden of time consumption that was not necessary.

But, do you think the FDA will compensate for the extra time? Hell no.

Also, in one room. I was stacking boxes all the way up to the cealing against the wall, no sprinklers wer blocked. Which the sprinklers are in the middle anyway. Well, the other branch of government that deals with safety did not want the boxes touching the cealing. Mind you, there was not enough room anywhere else. And sprinklers wer not blocked. So, i had to clutter the aisles with boxes because of the government. Then move them to get around. But do they compensate the company for this extra time and stupidity? Hell no.

They are a diverse group who are strung together by their dislike of "laws" and "taxes." Less common are the libertarians that take the time to honestly consider the purpose and reasonableness for even the laws which they specifically oppose.

Thats not exactly how it is. We like GOOD laws, not stupid or bad laws. We like taxes, when they go to proper spending.

Let me give you a second example.

Truck driving: just recently, 2 weeks ago i had to renew my DOT medical card. To do this i had to take off 1 day of work. I renewed my green card the same day. Killed 2 birds with one stone. 1 day took away 250$ off my check. Plus, the medical card cost 110$. Plus the renewel for the green card cost 500$.

So, lets see, the government took from me a total of 860$ in one day. But, will they compensate for my complience? Hell no.

But, not only did they take all that money, but they took away my time because i had to go to the medic office to do this BS. And i had to go to the other office for immigration.

Im healthy, theres nothing wrong. Some people may be like, well if im healthy then i got nothing to hide right? Yea, but its not about that. Its about the time and money that was taken from me. Plus, there medic examination is easy to pass. Even a unhealthy person could pass it by lying. Not in every case though. But again, why not punish the unhealthy person IF they crash due to a health issue? Why bother me a healthy person? I resent it. I understand the regulation is there because some very unhealthy people will be irresponsible and still try to drive. But, punish them, not me.

But, theres more. The regulation itself is too hard on drivers in my opinion. You got a bad back. They disqualify you. You got a hernia, they frown on it. You got diabetes, disqualified. You got a bad heart, disqualified. Do they do this stuff to pizza delivery drivers? No, there on the road, but they dont treat them like this. Its insane. You can be semi sick and still drive a truck. Its stupid too me. Also do you think the government will take care of the sick truck driver if they disqualify him? Hell no.

Also, im not a terrorist, i pay taxes, yet i gotta keep doing this immigration BS. Go after bad people. Quit wasting our tax dollars bothering people like me. Thats how i see it.

Ok. Ill stop with the examples for now. Your turn.

 

[Curious George]

Your not understanding what im saying. I agree, we need laws. Laws are regulations, yes.

But, theres certain laws that cause good peoples time, energy and money to be taken from them. This to me is not right. But these laws exist because of bad people. But, i say, just punish the bad people, dont take time, energy and money from good people.

I do not think you understand.

Its not exactly like that. We need some laws. But some laws are designed to take everyones time, energy and money away, this includes good people. So, good people are indirectly punished for the actions of bad people. This is a legitimate problem. Its in fact the problem that bothers me the most and is the biggest reason im a libertarian. Theres more reasons, but this reason is the main kicker for me.

No the laws are not designed to take everyone's time, energy, and money.

When it comes to all these laws, we got to ask WHY they complain. I can only speak for my own experience with laws. Im not a landlord, so i cannot speak on that. Or a farmer, ect. But, ill give you some examples ive had experience with and ill tell you why i complain about it.

Example one: dry food wearhouse i use to work. One day i was rotating the boxes of gronola. The recent dates would have to go in the back, and the later dates came forward. So, i rotated them. Plus i was doing orders.

Anyhow, to rotate, i would take the ones already on pallets or on the shelf, id take them off and place them on the floor. Then id take the knew boxes and place them on the pallets and the shelves. Then id take the old boxes and push them in front of the ones on the shelf. Id place old ones on top of the new ones on the pallets.

Anyhow, the boss came in and said FDA wont allow us to place any of the boxes on the floor, it must always be on the pallets.

So i asked, even if im rotating and there on the floor for a few minutes? They said yes.

I asked why. They said because FDA thinks bugs will bore a hole in the boxes and get at the food.

My face dropped. As if a bug cant crawl up pallets that are on the floor and go in the box now. Plus, no bugs wer in sight. Plus even if a bug came near the box, boring a hole in it is unlikely.

And this is likely the misunderstanding of your boss. You can't blame the law for your boss not understanding.

But, not only is this regulation STUPID, it also created a EXTRA burden of time consumption that was not necessary.

But, do you think the FDA will compensate for the extra time? Hell no.

Also, in one room. I was stacking boxes all the way up to the cealing against the wall, no sprinklers wer blocked. Which the sprinklers are in the middle anyway. Well, the other branch of government that deals with safety did not want the boxes touching the cealing. Mind you, there was not enough room anywhere else. And sprinklers wer not blocked. So, i had to clutter the aisles with boxes because of the government. Then move them to get around. But do they compensate the company for this extra time and stupidity? Hell no.

This would likely depend on how high the ceiling was. Not familiar with the code that we are discussing here. However, I can say that you have no business stacking boxes to a dangerous height. And your boss needs to discourage such unsafe practices. That said, blocking exits doesn't sound too safe either. Perhaps a better rotation system should have been implemented.

Thats not exactly how it is. We like GOOD laws, not stupid or bad laws. We like taxes, when they go to proper spending.

Let me give you a second example.

Truck driving: just recently, 2 weeks ago i had to renew my DOT medical card. To do this i had to take off 1 day of work. I renewed my green card the same day. Killed 2 birds with one stone. 1 day took away 250$ off my check. Plus, the medical card cost 110$. Plus the renewel for the green card cost 500$.

So, lets see, the government took from me a total of 860$ in one day. But, will they compensate for my complience? Hell no.

But, not only did they take all that money, but they took away my time because i had to go to the medic office to do this BS. And i had to go to the other office for immigration.

Im healthy, theres nothing wrong. Some people may be like, well if im healthy then i got nothing to hide right? Yea, but its not about that. Its about the time and money that was taken from me. Plus, there medic examination is easy to pass. Even a unhealthy person could pass it by lying. Not in every case though. But again, why not punish the unhealthy person IF they crash due to a health issue? Why bother me a healthy person? I resent it. I understand the regulation is there because some very unhealthy people will be irresponsible and still try to drive. But, punish them, not me.

But, theres more. The regulation itself is too hard on drivers in my opinion. You got a bad back. They disqualify you. You got a hernia, they frown on it. You got diabetes, disqualified. You got a bad heart, disqualified. Do they do this stuff to pizza delivery drivers? No, there on the road, but they dont treat them like this. Its insane. You can be semi sick and still drive a truck. Its stupid too me. Also do you think the government will take care of the sick truck driver if they disqualify him? Hell no.

Also, im not a terrorist, i pay taxes, yet i gotta keep doing this immigration BS. Go after bad people. Quit wasting our tax dollars bothering people like me. Thats how i see it.

Ok. Ill stop with the examples for now. Your turn.

Yeah, except everyone thinks they are healthy until they are not. Some drivers spend long hours on the road, I am not familiar with the list of disqualifying medical conditions but we could go through them if you want. Commercial drivers are different than pizza drivers. Pizza drivers aren't driving 5 ton trucks either. On the roadway with such a large vehicle, you represent an increased risk to other drivers. I do not think making sure someone is medically fit to do so is too much to ask.

The fees for the cards represent the bureaucracy that is required to maintain such oversight. Obviously the safety of the road is important and obviously immigration is important. In order to maintain proper oversight, these fees are necessary.

What so many fail to understand is that we create laws, most of the time, to address real problems. Sometimes they are hyped problems, but most of the time they are real issues that need addressing.

 

[Jollybear]

I do not think you understand.


No the laws are not designed to take everyone's time, energy, and money.

Well, that may not be the intent, but they do take away time and money. I gave you examples.

And this is likely the misunderstanding of your boss. You can't blame the law for your boss not understanding.

How do you know the boss did not understand?

This would likely depend on how high the ceiling was. Not familiar with the code that we are discussing here. However, I can say that you have no business stacking boxes to a dangerous height.

The way they wer stacked was secured and not dangerious. To know this youd have to be there. But, in anycase, it was not about the hight, it was about the last boxes on top TOUCHING the cealing. I had to remove all the top boxes that touched the cealing. This means the rest wer allowed to be stacked very high, almost touching the cealing.

Are you seeing how stupid this picture is?

As for the top boxes, there was no where else to put them other then the aisles.

I dont work there anymore, but i know they moved to a bigger wearhouse because of the problem.

And your boss needs to discourage such unsafe practices. That said, blocking exits doesn't sound too safe either. Perhaps a better rotation system should have been implemented.

Is it really unsafe to block an exit? Not really. Even if there was a fire, you could easily still manuever around a box to go out a fire exit. But, by law, having a box in front of a fire exit is still pettyfully against the law.

Its not like the whole thing is blocked with a massive tank or something.

The law can be petty. And the law does not leave room for trust and personal judgement.

Again, punish bad people. Go after them.

Yeah, except everyone thinks they are healthy until they are not.

Right, until there not. I could drive monday and take a heart attack. Its possible. You could be healthy and it happen. The law wastes peoples time and money.

Some drivers spend long hours on the road, I am not familiar with the list of disqualifying medical conditions but we could go through them if you want.

Sure. How about diabetes. That one.

Commercial drivers are different than pizza drivers. Pizza drivers aren't driving 5 ton trucks either. On the roadway with such a large vehicle, you represent an increased risk to other drivers. I do not think making sure someone is medically fit to do so is too much to ask.

True, its driving a bigger rig then a car. But, you could be driving 50 mile an hour, pass out and just role and bump something. Then a car, a person could be driving 70mph, pass out and kill someone.

It all varies and depends. These laws amas power, money and take peoples time away. I highly doubt it that if these laws did not exist, the percentages of truck crashes would really change much if any.

The fees for the cards represent the bureaucracy that is required to maintain such oversight.

Get rid of the bureaucracy then.

Obviously the safety of the road is important and obviously immigration is important. In order to maintain proper oversight, these fees are necessary.

There would be no need for immigration if everyone was honest and good. Go after terrorists and tax evadors. I a good guy dont need to spend 500$ for a worthless piece of plastic for some bureaucrat sitting behind an office when he should go get a real job, like going after terrorists and tax evadors. Not bother people like me.

What so many fail to understand is that we create laws, most of the time, to address real problems. Sometimes they are hyped problems, but most of the time they are real issues that need addressing.

Yea, the real problem is bad people.

The way weve addressed this is by burdening EVERYONE instead of going after just the bad people.