Why Arrogant "New Atheists" Annoy Me

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Not just that either, many ideologies, love, fear, 'following orders', etc can have such an effect.

Many awful crimes are perpetrated by people who believe they are doing the right thing, which is why I find the quote so inane.

Religion is just one of wide range of things, and replacements for religious beliefs may be even worse as your example demonstrates.

In Russia, the thing that communism replaced was serfdom - slavery - imposed by an oppressive aristocracy and supported by the official church. Starvation and other hardship was common.

Do you really think that communism was worse than this?

 

[Augustus]

Dude - they're T-shirts. Do you also shout at bumper stickers for lack of nuance?

People share such memes because they believe they convey a pity piece of wisdom.

Well, they ought to take a dose of their own medicine and examine the rich history of criticism of theism, which has more than its share of great thinkers, too.

New Atheists would be far more interesting if they had examined the rich history of criticisms of theism.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Not arrogant, mostly ignorant and just wrong.

Don't you think it's arrogant on your part to dismiss the opinion of a Nobel laureate and one of the preeminent philosophers and logicians of the 20th century this way?

 

[Augustus]

In Russia, the thing that communism replaced was serfdom - slavery

That was ended in the 19th C

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Don't you think it's arrogant on your part to dismiss the opinion of a Nobel laureate and one of the preeminent philosophers and logicians of the 20th century this way?

I don't care who he is. That's an argument from authority fallacy (although he really isn't an authority on this subject; like how Dawkins is a good biologist but a moron when it comes to religion). What he says goes against scientific and historical research into the origins of religious experience and behavior. It also goes against the lived experience of a great number of people and the paradigms of many religions.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

People share such memes because they believe they convey a pity piece of wisdom.

Or just because they think they're funny.

New Atheists would be far more interesting if they had examined the rich history of criticisms of theism.

What do you think they're missing?

People have posted works from all of the "Four Horsemen" in searchable formats. Pick a person or a term that you think they ought to have known about, explain why you think it's important, and then we'll see if they cite it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't care who he is. That's an argument from authority fallacy (although he really isn't an authority on this subject; like how Dawkins is a good biologist but a moron when it comes to religion). What he says goes against scientific and historical research into the origins of religious experience and behavior. It also goes against the lived experience of a great number of people and the paradigms of many religions.

So you understand my feeling when I read the OP.

BTW: the quote wasn't Richard Dawkins; it was Bertrand Russell... who actually was an expert in the philosophy of religion (among other things).

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

So you understand my feeling when I read the OP.

BTW: the quote wasn't Richard Dawkins; it was Bertrand Russell... who actually was an expert in the philosophy of religion (among other things).

I know who the quote was from. I wonder how he managed to get it so wrong.

 

[Drizzt Do'Urden]

I don't care who he is. That's an argument from authority fallacy (although he really isn't an authority on this subject; like how Dawkins is a good biologist but a moron when it comes to religion). What he says goes against scientific and historical research into the origins of religious experience and behavior. It also goes against the lived experience of a great number of people and the paradigms of many religions.

As if religion isn't the ultimate appeal to authority fallacy going these days?

Religion tells us how we're to live our lives, what are morals are supposed to be, and what propitiation's are required and says "That's it, end of discussion. See this holy book here? In it, god says THIS is the way it's supposed to be..."

 

[Augustus]

Or just because they think they're funny.

The long winter nights must just fly by...

What do you think they're missing?

People have posted works from all of the "Four Horsemen" in searchable formats. Pick a person or a term that you think they ought to have known about, explain why you think it's important, and then we'll see if they cite it.

Can start with some of the stuff from the post you quoted:

Now an old atheist, Nietzsche said:

The greatest recent event - that 'God is dead'; that the belief in the Christian God has become unbelievable - is already starting to cast its first shadow over Europe... Even less may one suppose many to know at all what this event really means - and, now that this faith has been undermined, how much must collapse because it was built on this faith, leaned on it, had grown into it - for example, our entire European morality. The Gay Science


Many New Atheists fail to realise the degree to which contemporary society has been shaped by religion, and that rejecting it ultimately this destroys the foundations on which existing morality is built.

This leads to an attempt to recast such ideas in a secular context, the thing is that it doesn't make these things any more 'true' or more representative of 'reality'. This is why for centuries, atheists have tried to create a science of morality, although the results have not always been liberal.

 

[stvdv]

Out of curiosity: is this the sort of opinion that people are dismissing as an "arrogant" product of uneducated new atheism?

Religion is based primarily upon fear. It is partly the terror of the unknown and partly as the wish to feel that you have a kind of elder brother who will stand by you in all your troubles and disputes. Fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand. It is because fear is at the basis of those two things.

Interesting quote. I freak out already when a black widow touches me [though so small]. So for me "life contains quite a bit of fear", I am aware of that. So any act I do might be prompted by fear (eat because of fear to die when I don't get enough). So I would not be surprised if religion is fear based. Personally I choose religion because I was intrigued with it, age 22. Not out of fear, just interested in it. Age 33 dokters told me I was going to die. Fear popped in big time, and then my religion indeed helped me to get over this fear/reality. I had full faith in my religion, so I refused the treatment docters advised. But I admit there was heaps of fear at that time.

So I agree for me religion is related with fear. But definitely not the only part or biggest part. Many people marry out of fear to be left alone or being lonesome. Many people want children out of fear to be alone when old in some countries. So maybe everyone has fears, all deal with it in their own way.

If you say "religion is fear based", then I think it would be fair to add "but I am aware that most humans live fear based". Would be more accurate I feel. So although I think the statement is parthly correct, it feels it's made by a person who is not religious himself. Therefore the feeling I get is that he sees religion less or not valuable. Which I do not agree with. But of course I can be wrong, I don't know the person.

So if an atheist says religion is based on fear, it might also be self reflection that he himself has fear, but deals with this in another way.

Ignorance plays for me also a big part in this "religion and fear". And if religion can help you to get rid of ignorance and attain wisdom, then, although it started with fear, it might have served it's purpose well.

So definitely a good thought giving me new perspectives. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

As if religion isn't the ultimate appeal to authority fallacy going these days?

Religion tells us how we're to live our lives, what are morals are supposed to be, and what propitiation's are required and says "That's it, end of discussion. See this holy book here? In it, god says THIS is the way it's supposed to be..."

You're thinking of Abrahamic religions and Christianity and Islam in particular. That is hardly religion in general. That is a big problem with many modern atheists who criticize religion and theism. They often look at fundamentalist and extremist strains of Abrahamic religions and then project that onto all the thousands of religions around the world in general, ignoring that most religions are not like that and that is only a very narrow example of religious belief and behavior. They also assume that the fundamentalist reading of holy texts are the most correct. It's very frustrating. Then when you bring up, for example, that you are a polytheist who worships, say, the deities of a pre-Christian culture, you often get the very same smug, rude and ignorant replies that you would from an ignorant Christian or Muslim like "no one worships Zeus anymore" or "pagans made up gods like Thor because they didn't know how thunder and lightning work but we know better now". That's very insulting.

 

[Drizzt Do'Urden]

You're thinking of Abrahamic religions and Christianity and Islam in particular. That is hardly religion in general. That is a big problem with many modern atheists who criticize religion and theism. They often look at fundamentalist and extremist strains of Abrahamic religions and then project that onto all the thousands of religions around the world in general, ignoring that most religions are not like that and that is only a very narrow example of religious belief and behavior. They also assume that the fundamentalist reading of holy texts are the most correct. It's very frustrating. Then when you bring up, for example, that you are a polytheist who worships, say, the deities of a pre-Christian culture, you often get the very same smug, rude and ignorant replies that you would from an ignorant Christian or Muslim like "no one worships Zeus anymore" or "pagans made up gods like Thor because they didn't know how thunder and lightning work but we know better now". That's very insulting.

Everything of value that people get from religion can be had more honestly, without presuming anything on insufficient evidence.

The rest is self-deception, set to Gothic music.

God gave us reason, NOT religion.

Religion is just man made nonsense about god, and it's been the cause of countless suffering throughout history.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Everything of value that people get from religion can be had more honestly, without presuming anything on insufficient evidence.

The rest is self-deception, set to Gothic music.

God gave us reason, NOT religion.

Religion is just man made nonsense about god, and it's been the cause of countless suffering throughout history.

I have no clue what this has to do with what I said, but it's another example of the low quality of discussion of religion prevelant in the West at this time...

 

[Drizzt Do'Urden]

I have no clue what this has to do with what I said, but it's another example of the low quality of discussion of religion prevelant in the West at this time...

Well, let me unpack it for you then...

I interjected in your discussion with a comment about how religions are the ultimate example of arguments from authority.

You had previously made note of the other fellows employment of argument from authority. You seemed to notice his use of it, and dismissed it, while forgetting that religion itself is the ultimate version of argument from authority.

I read your reply as you arguing that fundamentalists are giving religion a bad name and that religion as a whole was a worthwhile venture, thus my comment.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Well, let me unpack it for you then...

I interjected in your discussion with a comment about how religions are the ultimate example of arguments from authority.

You had previously made note of the other fellows employment of argument from authority. You seemed to notice his use of it, and dismissed it, while forgetting that religion itself is the ultimate version of argument from authority.

I read your reply as you arguing that fundamentalists are giving religion a bad name and that religion as a whole was a worthwhile venture, thus my comment.

While I do believe that fundamentalists tend to give religion a bad name, that wasn't really the point of my post. I was bringing up glaring problems in how "New Atheist" types (which are actually anti-theists and anti-religion) criticise religion.

 

[Drizzt Do'Urden]

While I do believe that fundamentalists tend to give religion a bad name, that wasn't really the point of my post. I was bringing up glaring problems in how "New Atheist" types (which are actually anti-theists and anti-religion) criticise religion.

Well, I see nothing wrong with the way "New Atheist" types are going about it.

Are some of them inelegant and not well spoken? Sure, but there's nothing really wrong with it in the sense that it's OK for them to challenge religion and confront religious bigotries meted out by the religious.

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

Mahatma Gandhi

Not that Gandhi and Hindus are without their prejudices...

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Well, I see nothing wrong with the way "New Atheist" types are going about it.

Are some of them inelegant and not well spoken? Sure, but there's nothing really wrong with it in the sense that it's OK for them to challenge religion and confront religious bigotries meted out by the religious.



Not that Gandhi and Hindus are without their prejudices...

No one said that challenging religion (whatever that's supposed to mean, regardless of how laughable that sounds) or calling out religion-based bigotry was wrong. I'm basically saying that they're often very ignorant of religion in terms of its diversity, scientific and historical origins, its social role and suchlike in the first place. Granted, most people tend to be pretty ignorant about religion. I can only roll my eyes when I see a New Atheist arguing against a fundie Christian.

Yeah, Ghandi is problematic but so is Jesus. He said and did things I view as wrong.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You're thinking of Abrahamic religions and Christianity and Islam in particular. That is hardly religion in general. That is a big problem with many modern atheists who criticize religion and theism. They often look at fundamentalist and extremist strains of Abrahamic religions and then project that onto all the thhousands of religions around the world in general, ignoring that most religions are not like that and that is only a very narrow example of religious belief and behavior. They also assume that the fundamentalist reading of holy texts are the most correct. It's very frustrating. Then when you bring up, for example, that you are a polytheist who worships, say, the deities of a pre-Christian culture, you often get the very same smug, rude and ignorant replies that you would from an ignorant Christian or Muslim like "no one worships Zeus anymore" or "pagans made up gods like Thor because they didn't know how thunder and lightning work but we know better now". That's very insulting.

About 65% of the religious people on the planet are either Christian or Muslim. These two religions dominate what “religion” is and its impact on the world.

It’s not that polytheistic pagans don’t exist; it’s that the impact of polytheistic paganism on... anything is less than the rounding error of the impact of Christianity or Islam.

Your religion may be important to you personally, but for every adherent it has, there are literally thousands of Christians and Muslims. When it comes to statements about “religion as a whole,” anything that isn’t Abrahamic is an outlier.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

About 65% of the religious people on the planet are either Christian or Muslim. These two religions dominate what “religion” is and its impact on the world.

It’s not that polytheistic pagans don’t exist; it’s that the impact of polytheistic paganism on... anything is less than the rounding error of the impact of Christianity or Islam.

Your religion may be important to you personally, but for every adherent it has, there are literally thousands of Christians and Muslims. When it comes to statements about “religion as a whole,” anything that isn’t Abrahamic is an outlier.

That's a very Western-centric viewpont of it. There are literally billions of people who are not members of the Abrahamic religions. I prefer not to feed the already monsterously bloated egos of Christianity and Islam by not letting them pretend they are the archetype of religion when it is actually them that are the misfits according to the number and forms of religion. By thinking they represent religion, you empower them and further disenfranchise religious minorities.