Why Arrogant "New Atheists" Annoy Me

[Saint Frankenstein]

Pointing it out, which is what New Atheists are doing, isn't going along with it.

Lol, I'll let you sit and think about how you've contradicted yourself there.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Well, I'm sorry you dislike him, but it doesn't lessen the truth of his statement. People DO hold religion to a different standard of evidence "You just gotta have faith"

Anyway, do I think that a world without religion would be a world without war and strife?

Certainly not! But at least the wars and strife would be over real and tangible things instead of whose fairy tale about god is more right.

That's a fairly optimistic approach considering the death toll of anti-religious communistic regimes. I don't believe religion brings anything to the table that isn't already a part of human nature, including irrational placement of certain axioms and ideals on platforms.

I often hear that the way to fix these fundamentalists is to expose them to more moderate religious views, but fundamentalists are all pretty much alike psychologically whether they're Christian or Muslim, or whatever other religion you want to talk about...

Citation?

I think we can both agree that the answer to alcoholism is NOT to drink more moderately, to cut back and to binge less. That the REAL answer is to no longer drink alcohol

Comparing religion, even religious extremism, to alcohol and alcoholism is already a bad faith argument.

To only use reason and logic and evidence to make claims about things. To abhor religious dogma no matter what form it takes

That's very dogmatic of you.

eligions, and superstitious people who act religious about a belief, do dumb things BECAUSE OF/ON BEHALF OF their religious and superstitious beliefs

So when new wave atheistic groups crop up with budding sexism, transphobic and antitheistic discrimination what do we blame it on?

 

[Augustus]

That being said, let us say that only 5% of the people that have ever lived died because of religious reasons... That is 5 billion people who have died.

Why should we say that? You just plucked it out of thin air and it's ludicrous.

I think the number is much higher actually because if you think about it in depth, you can attribute tons of deaths of people to religious and superstitious thinking.

Think about people who believe that faith and prayer alone can heal them of whatever malady they're afflicted with. I know some like to talk about stories where they've been healed through prayer, giving anecdotal evidence such as they had cancer and couldn't afford a doctor so they prayed and were healed, etc... But how many people have just tried to pray an illness away and actually died because of that belief?

How many people? Not that many I'd guess. Almost no one prays instead of going to the doctor for a serious condition, and remember we are aiming at 5 billion here.

Anyway, until the 20th C, you were actually better off not going to the doctor if you wanted to prolong your life

(not that many people could afford it).

It's probably a heck of a lot more people.

I'd say it's more probable that Jesus returns to earth tomorrow giving Yoda a piggyback and juggling chainsaws.

Great example for how irrational many atheists are when it comes to religion though

 

[Drizzt Do'Urden]

Lol, I'll let you sit and think about how you've contradicted yourself there.

LOL, I'll let you sit and think about how you didn't think your snarky comment through enough.

No, not really, I can't let you be wrong... Maybe I'm wrong and misread you, but you said:

Christianity and Islam (and their offshoots like the Baha'i cult) tend to be supremacist religions, believing themselves to be superior to all other worldviews. They want to be the representatives and measuring stick of religion.

This is a true statement, and New Atheists often point these kinds of things out...

In the next sentence, you said:

New Atheists, in their ignorance, are basically going along with that.

Again, New Atheists aren't going along with the Christian, Islamic beliefs that they have supremacy, they're merely pointing it out.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Of course, but by presenting certain forms of Christianity and Islam as representative of all religion, it promotes a certain viewpoint.

Representative of most religion, not all.

Basically, Christianity and Islam (and their offshoots like the Baha'i cult) tend to be supremacist religions, believing themselves to be superior to all other worldviews. They want to be the representatives and measuring stick of religion. New Atheists, in their ignorance, are basically going along with that.

So by saying that most religious people belong to Abrahamic religions, we’re emboldening Abrahamics, which you see as bad.

... but since it sure seems to be true, isn’t this just something you’ll have to live with?

I mean, it’s not like you’re going to tell us about some previously unknown Wakanda-esque country with a couple of billion Pagans that nobody in the outside world knew about before, right? The numbers are what they are.

 

[Augustus]

To only use reason and logic and evidence to make claims about things.

That being said, let us say that only 5% of the people that have ever lived died because of religious reasons... That is 5 billion people who have died.

 

[Drizzt Do'Urden]

Why should we say that? You just plucked it out of thin air and it's ludicrous.



How many people? Not that many I'd guess. Almost no one prays instead of going to the doctor for a serious condition, and remember we are aiming at 5 billion here.

Anyway, until the 20th C, you were actually better off not going to the doctor if you wanted to prolong your life

(not that many people could afford it).



I'd say it's more probable that Jesus returns to earth tomorrow giving Yoda a piggyback and juggling chainsaws.

Great example for how irrational many atheists are when it comes to religion though

First of all, I'm not an atheist. I am a deist.

Secondly, yes I picked 5% out of thin air, but it isn't ludicrous at all.

With war alone, you've got the soldiers in the armies who die as a result of direct conflict. You've got citizens and bystanders to the war who die because of things like raping and pillaging and taking slaves, etc. People die because society suffers during a war with resources being strained, etc...

Whatever, I'm not going to argue about this with you because it's a fruitless exercise, but...

Did you know that if you go through the bible and tally up all the people killed by the god of the bible, or in his name at the hands of his adherents, the total comes close to 2.4 million people dead.

That DOESN'T even take into account all the first born of Egypt who died (that number is never told to us by the bible). Also, how many untold millions died in his supposed great flood, the Noah's Ark tale?

Now, go through the bible and tally up all the dead by the hand of Satan... THAT total is nine people... Job's family.

The silly god of Abraham made a BET with his creation, Satan, and let Satan destroy Job's crops and kill off his herds, and when that didn't work he killed off Job's children one by one to see if Job's devotion to your god could be "shaken"...

The god of Abraham let him do that.... WHAT an A**hole

 

[Augustus]

With war alone, you've got the soldiers in the armies who die as a result of direct conflict. You've got citizens and bystanders to the war who die because of things like raping and pillaging and taking slaves, etc. People die because society suffers during a war with resources being strained, etc...

There haven't been 5 billion deaths from war in human history, let alone religious wars (about 7% of all wars).

To make it a bit easier, can you get to 100 million religious war deaths in recorded history?

Whatever, I'm not going to argue about this with you because it's a fruitless exercise

Being obviously wrong is pretty fruitless I agree.

Did you know that if you go through the bible and tally up all the people killed by the god of the bible, or in his name at the hands of his adherents, the total comes close to 2.4 million people dead.

That DOESN'T even take into account all the first born of Egypt who died (that number is never told to us by the bible). Also, how many untold millions died in his supposed great flood, the Noah's Ark tale?

Now, go through the bible and tally up all the dead by the hand of Satan... THAT total is nine people... Job's family.

The silly god of Abraham made a BET with his creation, Satan, and let Satan destroy Job's crops and kill off his herds, and when that didn't work he killed off Job's children one by one to see if Job's devotion to your god could be "shaken"...

The god of Abraham let him do that.... WHAT an A**hole

I was talking about actual deaths that relate to events that actually happened.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Representative of most religion, not all.


So by saying that most religious people belong to Abrahamic religions, we’re emboldening Abrahamics, which you see as bad.

... but since it sure seems to be true, isn’t this just something you’ll have to live with?

I mean, it’s not like you’re going to tell us about some previously unknown Wakanda-esque country with a couple of billion Pagans that nobody in the outside world knew about before, right? The numbers are what they are.

Now you're misrepresenting what I'm saying. What I'm saying has nothing to do with numbers.

When a person says, example:
"Religion tells us how we're to live our lives, what are morals are supposed to be, and what propitiation's are required and says "That's it, end of discussion. See this holy book here? In it, god says THIS is the way it's supposed to be...""

...they are obviously not really saying "well, this is how some people in certain religions see things and I think it's wrong". They are obviously trying to present all religion in general as being that way. So not only certain Christians, Muslims and Jews, but also Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, Shintoists, Neopagans, Satanists, Traditional African Religion, etc. They're trying to generalize about all religion with statements like that, when it's quite obvious all or even most religions do not fit that mold.

 

[Drizzt Do'Urden]

There haven't been 5 billion deaths from war in human history, let alone religious wars (about 7% of all wars).

To make it a bit easier, can you get to 100 million religious war deaths in recorded history?



Being obviously wrong is pretty fruitless I agree.



I was talking about actual deaths that relate to events that actually happened.

I get that you'd like to think I was wrong, but have you ever done any research into how many Indians were killed by the Muslims over the course of their movement into the Indian subcontinent?

An aside: I recall seeing a picture years ago of the piles of buffalo skulls created when the policy to wipe out the American Indian's food sources was implemented. Huge piles of skulls 20 feet tall or more.

The Muslims, over the course of several centuries, were able to successfully invade and conquer India several times. During the periods of conquest, Islamic leaders tried mass conversions of Hindus into Muslims. Several hundred million Indians were killed in the process of this and this is all a matter of Islamic history, told in their literature.

While not as extreme in the Americas and Africa, the Spaniards and Portuguese were especially brutal to pagan tribes and societies and were guilty of the same sort of conversion techniques.

Look at what happened in the Thirty Years War in Europe. This war began as a war between Protestant and Catholic over who's rendition of god was right and who had the right theology. Yes, the reasons for the war evolved over time to include other concerns like increasing kingdom sizes, etc, but underlying all of that was religious intent. It was Protestant kingdoms banding together to fight Catholic kingdoms. When all was said and done, over a third of the population of Europe was dead.

Again I say, billions of people throughout the history of this world have died for their religion, in the name of their religion, and in an effort to completely destroy other people's religions...

 

[Augustus]

I get that you'd like to think I was wrong, but have you ever done any research into how many Indians were killed by the Muslims over the course of their movement into the Indian subcontinent?

As it happens...

Will reply tomorrow though as its 4am here now

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

As it happens...

Will reply tomorrow though as its 4am here now

Damn, I had my popcorn ready and everything. When I saw that post, I knew right away you're going to have a lot of fun ripping it to shreds as it's a subject you've gone over a lot.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Now you're misrepresenting what I'm saying. What I'm saying has nothing to do with numbers.

When a person says, example:
"Religion tells us how we're to live our lives, what are morals are supposed to be, and what propitiation's are required and says "That's it, end of discussion. See this holy book here? In it, god says THIS is the way it's supposed to be...""

...they are obviously not really saying "well, this is how some people in certain religions see things and I think it's wrong". They are obviously trying to present all religion in general as being that way. So not only certain Christians, Muslims and Jews, but also Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, Shintoists, Neopagans, Satanists, Traditional African Religion, etc. They're trying to generalize about all religion with statements like that, when it's quite obvious all or even most religions do not fit that mold.

Do you take this approach on other issues? Do you complain about how when people talk about auto-centric culture, they don’t mention steam-powered cars, race cars, historic vehicles in museums, etc.?

 

[Drizzt Do'Urden]

Damn, I had my popcorn ready and everything. When I saw that post, I knew right away you're going to have a lot of fun ripping it to shreds as it's a subject you've gone over a lot.

I look forward to it too! I mean I get how a religious person wouldn't like to have religion characterized in such a way, but it's a good thing facts aren't concerned with the way people feel about them.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I look forward to it too! I mean I get how a religious person wouldn't like to have religion characterized in such a way, but it's a good thing facts aren't concerned with the way people feel about them.

@Augustus is an atheist and not religious.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Do you take this approach on other issues? Do you complain about how when people talk about auto-centric culture, they don’t mention steam-powered cars, race cars, historic vehicles in museums, etc.?

That's a pretty stupid analogy. Very telling of your biases, though.

 

[Drizzt Do'Urden]

@Augustus is an atheist and not religious.

Good for him/her! I'm glad to hear it!

The fact remains that over 100 billion people have come and gone since mankind's emergence as a species. A lot of those people died as a result of religious beliefs that made otherwise smart people do dumb things.

Even if it's only 2% of 100 billion people throughout the history of man, that's still billions who had died as a result of it.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Good for him/her! I'm glad to hear it!

The fact remains that over 100 billion people have come and gone since mankind's emergence as a species. A lot of those people died as a result of religious beliefs that made otherwise smart people do dumb things.

Even if it's only 2% of 100 billion people throughout the history of man, that's still billions who had died as a result of it.

LOL. I'll let Augustus have his fun with you.

 

[Drizzt Do'Urden]

LOL. I'll let Augustus have his fun with you.

It won't be much fun for either of us... As I stated above, we'll probably never come to agreement on it, and thus it'll be fruitless.

He tried to turn that on me by saying something snarky, but whatever.

With any wars or conquests, it doesn't matter what the supposed root cause was: if religion was used as the tool of choice to get people to do the killing, then it was done in religion's name. It doesn't matter that the actual reason was politics or money - the killing was carried out because of religion.

It's a moot point, however. Very recently, young girls were allowed to be burned alive in Saudi Arabia because they weren't wearing the right clothes; although we've got the numbers for the most recent event, how many times has this happened in the past?

Due to the constant pressures of religion, there have been many homosexual women and men who have taken their own lives - how many? On a similar note, many (if not most) gay-bashing that has ended in death was fueled, if not by religion, then by the prudery and prurient interest in the sexual activities of others that religion injects into culture. The KKK was (is?) a religious organization, fueled by what even I see as a gross misinterpretation of the words of the Bible - but it's still religious belief, so how many people have they killed?

In short, we have no numbers. Sure, we've got the numbers on religious wars; WHAT WE DON'T HAVE ARE THE NUMBERS ON COLLATERAL DAMAGE.

Things like the spread of AIDS in Africa: we'll never know how much of that was caused/influenced by the Catholic Church's condom doctrines.

How many people have died because religious teachings said that disease was caused by demons instead of germs?

It's just impossible to know.

My best guess is things just like these over the course of thousands of years has actually resulted in the deaths of billions of people

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That's a pretty stupid analogy. Very telling of your biases, though.

If you didn’t like that analogy, you’ll hate these stats:

- in the US, about 0.4% of people reported being Pagan.
- about 3.4% of the US vehicle fleet are RVs. (8.9 million out of 263 million)

How often do you ignore RVs when speaking about vehicles? Paganism is about 8 times less relevant to the overall religious landscape than RVs are to the automotive landscape.

Like I said: your religion may be important to you personally, but in terms of religion as a whole, it’s an outlier.

There’s nothing wrong with being an outlier. There’s nothing about being an outlier that means you can’t value your religion. There are just much larger parts of the overall picture of religion.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

If you didn’t like that analogy, you’ll hate these stats:

- in the US, about 0.4% of people reported being Pagan.
- about 3.4% of the US vehicle fleet are RVs. (8.9 million out of 263 million)

How often do you ignore RVs when speaking about vehicles? Paganism is about 8 times less relevant to the overall religious landscape than RVs are to the automotive landscape.

Like I said: your religion may be important to you personally, but in terms of religion as a whole, it’s an outlier.

There’s nothing wrong with being an outlier. There’s nothing about being an outlier that means you can’t value your religion. There are just much larger parts of the overall picture of religion.

I'm done with you since you insist on missing the point. I've said it before, but if you weren't a mod, you would've been on ignore a long time ago.