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Why Ayn Rand Seems to Me So Pathetically Stupid Even When I am Drunk

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Actually, she never dated him. She just had a crush on him. Source:
So what, and who, was Ayn Rand for and against? The best way to get to the bottom of it is to take a look at how she developed the superhero of her novel, Atlas Shrugged, John Galt. Back in the late 1920s, as Ayn Rand was working out her philosophy, she became enthralled by a real-life American serial killer, William Edward Hickman, whose gruesome, sadistic dismemberment of 12-year-old girl named Marion Parker in 1927 shocked the nation. Rand filled her early notebooks with worshipful praise of Hickman. According to biographer Jennifer Burns, author of Goddess of the Market, Rand was so smitten by Hickman that she modeled her first literary creation -- Danny Renahan, the protagonist of her unfinished first novel, The Little Street -- on him.

What did Rand admire so much about Hickman? His sociopathic qualities: "Other people do not exist for him, and he does not see why they should," she wrote, gushing that Hickman had "no regard whatsoever for all that society holds sacred, and with a consciousness all his own. He has the true, innate psychology of a Superman. He can never realize and feel 'other people.'"​
Your colorfully worded source appears to be at odds wtih the Wikipedia entries for Hickman & Rand:
William Edward Hickman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ayn Rand - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I've found no credible evidence that Rand had romantic designs on Hickman, as you & your article suggest.
Certainly, there's much to legitimately criticize about her, but one ought to at least be accurate about it.
What's next...will you argue that Truman Capote was in love with Herbert Clutter?

I'm curious....what kind of writer are you?
 
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Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Your source appears to be at odds wtih the Wikipedia entries for Hickman & Rand:
William Edward Hickman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ayn Rand - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I've found no credible evidence that Rand had romantic designs on Hickman, as you & your article suggest.
Certainly, there's much to legitimately criticize about her, but one ought to at least be accurate about it.
What's next...will you argue that Truman Capote was in love with Herbert Clutter?

I'm curious....what kind of writer are you?

You have an amazing capacity for seizing on the one fact of the matter that is largely irrelevant -- That is, the question of whether Rand had a genuine crush on Hickman, or whether saying she had a crush on him is mere metaphor. Perhaps you are right that it is mere metaphor. But so what. The man kidnapped, mutilated, murdered a 12 year old girl -- and Rand admired him! Gushed about what a beautiful soul he was.

Well, he was a frickin sociopath and so, apparently, was she. Deal with it! Sorry your savior, Ayn Rand, has feet of ****, Revoltingest, but you'll just have to deal with that.

Here's some reading for you.
 
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Midnight Pete

Well-Known Member
Anyone familiar with The Fountainhead? The girl in the story fell for this John Galt character because to her, he was the Ideal Man. Herbert Clutter must have been Ayn Rand's Ideal Man IRL. Don't think about that too much if you value your sanity.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Allow me to suggest that Wikipedia has been sanitized. A fuller, more accurate, and much less sanitized account of Rand's admiration for Hickman can be found here.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
You have an amazing capacity for seizing on the one fact of the matter that is largely irrelevant -- That is, the question of whether Rand had a genuine crush on Hickman, or whether saying she had a crush on him is mere metaphor. Perhaps you are right that it is mere metaphor. But so what. The man kidnapped, mutilated, murdered a 12 year old girl -- and Rand admired him! Gushed about what a beautiful soul he was.
Rand referred to him as a "monster"....not a good thing, as I read it.
I'm willing to read your source showing how she "gushed about what a beautiful soul he was".

Well, he was a frickin sociopath and so, apparently, was she. Deal with it!
Sorry your savior, Ayn Rand, has feet of ****, Revoltingest, but you'll just have to deal with that.
Criminy, you're an angry one. How on earth did she affect you so?

Allow me to suggest that Wikipedia has been sanitized. A fuller, more accurate, and much less sanitized account of Rand's admiration for Hickman can be found here.
Wikipedia is a secret plot by Rand conspirators, no doubt.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Rand referred to him as a "monster"....not a good thing, as I read it.

You've been reading the sanitized Wikipedia entry, haven't you? Here, from Rand's notebook, is her "monster" reference in context:

"And when we look at the other side of it -- there is a brilliant, unusual, exceptional boy turned into a purposeless monster. By whom? By what? Is it not by that very society that is now yelling so virtuously in its role of innocent victim? He had a brilliant mind, a romantic, adventurous, impatient soul and a straight, uncompromising, proud character. What had society to offer him? A wretched, insane family as the ideal home, a Y.M.C.A. club as social honor, and a bank-page job as ambition and career..."


I'm willing to read your source showing how she "gushed about what a beautiful soul he was".

The source is her own notebook entries on Hickman, which can be found here. Be sure to read down to the second time "beautiful soul" is mentioned by Rand.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Anyone familiar with The Fountainhead? The girl in the story fell for this John Galt character because to her, he was the Ideal Man. Herbert Clutter must have been Ayn Rand's Ideal Man IRL. Don't think about that too much if you value your sanity.
Galt is in Atlas Shrugged, not The Fountainhead.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
You've been reading the sanitized Wikipedia entry, haven't you? Here, from Rand's notebook, is her "monster" reference in context:

"And when we look at the other side of it -- there is a brilliant, unusual, exceptional boy turned into a purposeless monster. By whom? By what? Is it not by that very society that is now yelling so virtuously in its role of innocent victim? He had a brilliant mind, a romantic, adventurous, impatient soul and a straight, uncompromising, proud character. What had society to offer him? A wretched, insane family as the ideal home, a Y.M.C.A. club as social honor, and a bank-page job as ambition and career..."
Nothing there to suggest that she had a "crush" on him or any romantic interest whatsoever.

The source is her own notebook entries on Hickman, which can be found here. Be sure to read down to the second time "beautiful soul" is mentioned by Rand.
You're still not making your case. Yes, she was struck by what a compelling character he was & by his
circumstances, but the same could be said of Capote, Waumbaugh, etc, etc.
No sign of love & affection.
You seem awfully obsessed with painting her as Satan on Earth. What's up with that?

Why don't you actually attempt to refute my notion that Wikipedia has been sanitized instead of just dismissing it?
You're free to edit the articles with your corrections. Your edits will stick if they're neutral & referenced.
I'm not even a writer & I edit articles there. It should be a piece of cake for you, a writer.
 
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Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Nothing there to suggest that she had a "crush" on him or any romantic interest whatsoever.


You're still not making your case. Yes, she was struck by what a compelling character he was & by his
circumstances, but the same could be said of Capote, Waumbaugh, etc, etc. No sign of love & affection.

She admired a sociopath who kidnapped, dismembered, and murdered a 12 year old girl, among other things. And she admired him precisely because he was a sociopath. Get it? It's not about a romantic crush, Revoltingest. I've already said that. When are you going to learn to read English?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
You're free to edit the articles with your corrections. Your edits will stick if they're neutral & referenced.
I'm not even a writer & I edit articles there. It should be a piece of cake for you, a writer.

So what? How is what you've said relevant here?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
You seem awfully obsessed with smearing me rather than deal with the charges against your hero, Ayn Rand. What's up with that?
I see that my posts make you feel that way. But you should note that I've provided sources...& even a little bit of reasoning.
Rather than smear you, I only hope that perhaps you'll have some understanding of & tolerance for the loyal opposition.
If a misanthrope like me play nice with commies & lefties, then certainly you can reciprocate with Rand fans & libertarians.

So what? How is what you've said relevant here?
You claim what sounds like a Randian plot to purge Wikipedia of unflattering facts.
I challenge you to set the record straight in Wikipedia. You're allowed to change it. If your edits are worthy (ie, neutral, accurate & properly sourced), then they will stick.
If they don't, then I'll start calling it "Randipedia".
But methinks your love interest angle is entirely invented for personal reasons. I couldn't care less what personal faults she has. But it seems unnaturally important to you.
I see that you won a "creative thread" award.....I can see why.
 
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Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
You claim a plot to sanitize Wikipedia articles on Rand.
I challenge you to set the record straight in Wikipedia. You're allowed to change it. If your edits are worthy (ie, neutral, accurate & properly sourced), then they will stick.

I don't have an interest in writing articles for Wikipedia.

But methinks your love interest angle is entirely invented for personal reasons.

Can you -- or can you not -- grasp the difference between literal and figurative speech? When I say Rand had a crush on Hickman, I mean it figuratively, not literally. Comprendre?

I couldn't care less what personal faults she has. But it seems unnaturally important to you.

If it's not "unnaturally important" to you, then why are you going on and on and on about it? Methinks you must be stretching the truth a bit to state Rand's personal faults mean nothing to you.

I see that you won a "creative thread" award.....I can see why.

I know I've touched a sore spot with you by attacking Rand for her personal faults, but there's still no need for cheap shots, Revoltingest.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
How many times are you going to modify post #93, Revoltingest? Just curious.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
How many times are you going to modify post #93, Revoltingest? Just curious.
I don't know. It's a design engineer's disease....we compulsively change things.
I know it annoys some, but I keep finding shortcomings in my posts.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Anyone who is interested in Rand's admiration for the child-killer Hickman should read Michael Prescott's analysis of Rand's writings about Hickman. They can be found here.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I mean it figuratively, not literally. Comprendre?
I do now.

If it's not "unnaturally important" to you, then why are you going on and on and on about it?
It's interesting. And things are quiet on another forum where I'm posting.

Methinks you must be stretching the truth a bit to state Rand's personal faults mean nothing to you.
I think of her the way I do other important figures, eg, Jefferson, Darwin, Ghandi, Hitchcock.
The did some important & meaningful work, in spite of (or partly because of) their personal failings.
They are who they are. Were I to want them to be different, they wouldn't honor my wish.

I know I've touched a sore spot with you by attacking Rand for her personal faults, but there's still no need for cheap shots, Revoltingest.
If you sense cheap shots, then look to your own behavior. It's not out of reverence for Rand. I don't really even like her, but neither do I dislike her.
I do try to be civil, but I fail on occasion. How's about you?

Anyone who is interested in Rand's admiration for the child-killer Hickman should read Michael Prescott's analysis of Rand's writings about Hickman. They can be found here.
It reminds me of AIG & ICR. You could try sourcing her original notes instead.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Don't blame me for your behavior, boy. Be a man and take some responsibility for yourself.
I take full responsibility for my posts. But I will point out that if you're hostile & contrary, then I'll banter appropriately (with
a little mirth tossed in for fun). I'm flexible, but I'd prefer that we have spirited & friendly discussion. I'm always open to that.

Btw, when you started this thread, I could see that you were a little tipsy & wanted to blow off some steam. I purposely
stayed out of it so you could have some fun with like minded folk. I only jumped in later, after that ran its course.
Even I can be considerate at times.

You make me sick. I'm putting you on ignore.
I get that sometimes.
You'll become curious though.
 
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