Why Believe Jesus Never Had Sex?

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Bean me up Scotty.

That's some bean-- is it garbanzo, pinto or habanero?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

If you can't attack the evidence, attack the author.

Can you come up with something with a little more substance?

If the author has an Agenda? That's a fair cop.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Let's see how true you are to what you are saying:

Introduction to the New Testament History and Literature | Open Yale Courses University level.

Downloadable. Second transcript

Quote: "The oldest written materials of Christianity are actually the letters of Paul. This may come as a surprise, because you get to the gospels first in the New Testament. And most people assume, "Oh, the gospels, they're about the life of Jesus. That must be the oldest stuff." Well, the gospels are actually all written after the letters of Paul were written by 20 or 30 years. So the oldest material we have are the letters of Paul. And the oldest one of those letters is 1 Thessalonians, probably, dated to around the year 50 or thereabouts."

If the "oldest written materials" from Paul is dated around 50 AD, and the Gospels were written after that date by 20 to 30 years, that caps it at 80AD.

What you gave me, was the dates of actual books that are still in existence.

So.... now that I gave you a University statement... do you change your position of thought?

No. Actually, that only makes your case worse: Paul never did write about a human/mortal Jesus character (if you ignore all the false books he allegedly wrote).

In fact, all of the accepted letters by Paul, speak of a celestial, pure-spirit being, who was never human at all.

But nevermind that... 50ACE is too little, too late-- something like a whole generation too late, in fact.

Where are your writings that were written around the year 30ACE?

 

[nPeace]

What, exactly, is the atheist narrative that you say I have been parroting?



So, you concur that God's killing of almost all humans was genocide.






So, yes. Read and understand the definition you posted.

I understand genocide to be associated with prejudice, not justice.
For example, if s government set a time to execute all murderers, I don't consider that genocide, or murder.
There must be some kind of justice. What do you think?

 

[nPeace]

We have archaeology evidence of people dating back 40,000 to 50,000 years. People leave all *sorts* of things behind, most notably garbage dumps, which contain broken tools, bones, unusable clothing, etc, etc, etc.

NONE OF THAT EXISTS to support the obviously MYTH STORY of Exodus.

Why are you so convinced about these dates?
Don't you ever wonder how it is that fossils dated hundreds of millions of years old are found on the surface of the earth, buried in dirt less than an inch deep?

How is it that a forged fossil of a finger can be dated 110 million years old?
If it's so easy to produce a fossil in less than a year - and fake fossils are part of a ginormous business - and it is dated millions of years...
Doesn't that cause you to ever question these things?

 

[nPeace]

It's not a matter of belief. It IS a matter of evidence-- you simply don't have any.


Circular Argument Logical Fallacy: you cannot use your bible to "prove" your bible.

Fail.


Too little, too late-- Josephus wasn't born early enough to be an Historian. He was repeating stories he'd heard elsewhere. As such? He cannot be proof nor evidence.

Moreover, it's been proven pretty well, that the Josephus is fake, so twice-fail.



Again? Too little, too late-- he wasn't born early enough. Not contemporary, as such, repeated hearsay.

This is old stuff, here-- christians have been desperate to "prove" the Historical Jesus, and failed, for quite a long time, now. It's kinda pathetic to attempt for twist these into some sort of "proof".



1976????! !! LMAO! Oh. My. That's hilarious! You had to go back 40 years to get an old article to agree with you!

MODERN scholarship no longer feels pressure to conform to the myths anymore. Such as the power of Christian Privilege waned.

It wasn't THAT long ago when you would be FIRED for daring to question the Jesus Myth. This is no longer the case...


100% biased website, and absolutely worthless if you do not already believe in the myths.

It's not the Bible, proving the Bible. It is the evidence both within - the strongest, and without, that proves it.

Think of a family of say, eight persons, where one or more individual in the family does something, I don't know.... something. If of those eight, six were witnesses, they are all you need to give evidence.

Investigations can also be done to gather more evidence, to verify, but there is no evidence outside the family to prove any of the family members guilty - well other than the invisible spirit forces,,,

This is how the internal evidence in the Bible works.
The external evidence is also there, but there are people that want to burn the family to death, along with any evidence, so they don't care much about the evidence.

 

[Deeje]

It already has. 2000+ years of "he's coming back any day now" -- and you christians STILL have nothing.

We are very patient people. We understand that the Creator of the universe is not restricted by the time created by the earth's rotation. In fact the apostle Peter even said that 1000 earth years is like "a day" to God. (2 Peter 3:8)

He even mentioned that people like yourself would be common in our time....

"First of all know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as they were from creation’s beginning.” (2 Peter 3:3-4)

As I said...time will tell. There are reasons for everything.

 

[nPeace]

It’s not surprising there’s ‘no mention’; it ended up being a humiliating experience for the Egyptians....not just the ruler, but for the entire Kingdoms.. And most today know that embarrassing events were often omitted in the official records of those ancient nations.

There are people even now trying to remove any evidence of Hitler’s Holocaust, denying this recent event ever happened!

Not surprising at all.

That's true. There are many problems with Egyptian chronology. Uncertainties are multiple.

The works of Manetho, used to give order to the fragmentary lists and other inscriptions, are preserved only in the writings of later historians, such as Josephus (first century C.E.), Sextus Julius Africanus (third century C.E., hence over 500 years from Manetho’s time), Eusebius (fourth century C.E.), and Syncellus (late eighth or early ninth century C.E.).

As stated by W. G. Waddell, their quotations of Manetho’s writings are fragmentary and often distorted and hence “it is extremely difficult to reach certainty in regard to what is authentic Manetho and what is spurious or corrupt.”

After showing that Manetho’s source material included some unhistorical traditions and legends that “introduced kings as their heroes, without regard to chronological order,” he says: “There were many errors in Manetho’s work from the very beginning: all are not due to the perversions of scribes and revisers. Many of the lengths of reigns have been found impossible: in some cases the names and the sequence of kings as given by Manetho have proved untenable in the light of monumental evidence.” - Manetho, introduction, pp. vii, xvii, xx, xxi, xxv.

The probability that concurrent reigns rather than successive reigns are responsible for many of Manetho’s excessively long periods is shown in the book Studies in Egyptian Chronology, by T. Nicklin (Blackburn, Eng., 1928, p. 39): “The Manethonian Dynasties . . . are not lists of rulers over all Egypt, but lists partly of more or less independent princes, partly . . . of princely lines from which later sprang rulers over all Egypt.”

Professor Waddell (pp. 1-9) observes that “perhaps several Egyptian kings ruled at one and the same time; . . . thus it was not a succession of kings occupying the throne one after the other, but several kings reigning at the same time in different regions. Hence arose the great total number of years.”

Professor J. A. Wilson states: “A warning should be issued about the precise historical value of Egyptian inscriptions. That was a world of . . . divine myths and miracles.” Then after suggesting that the scribes were not above juggling the chronology of events to add praise to the particular monarch in power, he says: “The historian will accept his data at face value, unless there is a clear reason for distrust; but he must be ready to modify his acceptance as soon as new materials put the previous interpretation in a new light.” - The World History of the Jewish People, 1964, Vol. 1, pp. 280, 281.

Absence of information concerning Israel. This is not surprising, since the Egyptians not only refused to record matters uncomplimentary to themselves but also were not above effacing records of a previous monarch if the information in such records proved distasteful to the then reigning pharaoh. Thus, after the death of Queen Hatshepsut, Thutmose III had her name and representations chiseled out of the monumental reliefs.
This practice doubtless explains why there is no known Egyptian record of the 215 years of Israelite residence in Egypt or of their Exodus.

The pharaoh ruling at the time of the Exodus is not named in the Bible; hence, efforts to identify him are based on conjecture. This partly explains why modern historians’ calculations of the date of the Exodus vary from 1441 to 1225 B.C.E., a difference of over 200 years.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I understand genocide to be associated with prejudice, not justice.
For example, if s government set a time to execute all murderers, I don't consider that genocide, or murder.
There must be some kind of justice. What do you think?

Well, there is Justice, and then? There is Mercy.

In truth, most folk don't want Justice-- they want either Mercy or Revenge, depending if it's them (mercy), their family (mercy again) or someone they feel has Done Them Wrong (revenge).

Of course... Justice must be commiserate with the crime.

And, of course, the whole Hell shtick doesn't meet that criteria-- a finite lifetime of behaviors is never-ever worthy of infinite results. Ever.

No-- hell is just Revenge, never Justice. Oh well.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Why are you so convinced about these dates?.

Who said I'm convinced? I think the dates are quite reasonable. I have also made a study of how things are dated, using multiple disciplines. Carbon 14 is but one tiny tool in the arsenal, but it's well collaborated by the other methods. But yeah-- 40-50 thousand years ago are some of the oldest human-created artifacts. They are over in Australia, by the way. The aborigines have an unbroken history going back that far at least.

They must have had a huge laugh, when the world was "created" a scant 6000 years ago, and wondered what all the fuss was, having had a history many times that.

Don't you ever wonder how it is that fossils dated hundreds of millions of years old are found on the surface of the earth, buried in dirt less than an inch deep?.

Not even slightly worried. Because I understand how fossils are made, and I also understand how erosion works... the planet is not static, not even slightly. The surface is constantly being churnned up, eroded, uplifted, re-made, re-deposited and so on.

Look at the Mississippi Delta, for example-- it is literally made of the corpses of mountains...

How is it that a forged fossil of a finger can be dated 110 million years old?
If it's so easy to produce a fossil in less than a year - and fake fossils are part of a ginormous business - and it is dated millions of years...
Doesn't that cause you to ever question these things?

Sorry-- but your link points to "bible dot ca" which means? It is absolutely not to be trusted even a LITTLE bit, with respect to actual archaeology. So I reject your link out of hand, wholesale, with barely a glance.

I absolutely do not accept a single word that website says.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

It's not the Bible, proving the Bible. It is the evidence both within - the strongest, and without, that proves it..

What? What is this ... ahem... "evidence" you cite, but do not actually say what it is?

Think of a family of say, eight persons, where one or more individual in the family does something, I don't know.... something. If of those eight, six were witnesses, they are all you need to give evidence..

NOT in actual SCIENCE. Eyewitness is *never* acceptable as evidence. It's simply unreliable to the extreme.

Sorry about that, Chief.

Investigations can also be done to gather more evidence, to verify, but there is no evidence outside the family to prove any of the family members guilty - well other than the invisible spirit forces,,, .

See above. It may work in a court of law (unfortunately) but it'll never fly in Science.

This is how the internal evidence in the Bible works.
The external evidence is also there, but there are people that want to burn the family to death, along with any evidence, so they don't care much about the evidence.

So. You have zero actual evidence, then? None, nada, zip, nothing, not-one-thing?

Got it. I already knew that, actually, but there you go...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

We are very patient people. We understand that the Creator of the universe is not restricted by the time created by the earth's rotation. In fact the apostle Peter even said that 1000 earth years is like "a day" to God. (2 Peter 3:8).

Yet? Your Jesus character promised that none of that generation would die before he returned... .and he utterly, completely, 100% failed to return.

ooops!

He even mentioned that people like yourself would be common in our time....

"First of all know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as they were from creation’s beginning.” (2 Peter 3:3-4)

As I said...time will tell. There are reasons for everything.

Laah-de-dah. People would doubt the utter bollocks that is the bible? What a surprise THAT would be... right?

LMAO!

 

[Hockeycowboy]

We have archaeology evidence of people dating back 40,000 to 50,000 years. People leave all *sorts* of things behind, most notably garbage dumps, which contain broken tools, bones, unusable clothing, etc, etc, etc.

NONE OF THAT EXISTS to support the obviously MYTH STORY of Exodus.

Interesting that you should mention garbage, and “unusable clothing”. FYI, while in the wilderness wandering, “their sandals did not wear out.” — Deuteronomy 29:5.

Just sayin’.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

That's some bean-- is it garbanzo, pinto or habanero?

Umm.....habanero is a pepper.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

....commiserate....

I think you mean commensurate.

I’m sure it was your computer’s predictive text....that messes me up a lot.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The Egyptians were meticulous record-keepers. Very meticulous-- they included the annual sales of olive oil (for example).

No mention -- ever -- of large numbers of Hebrew Slaves. In the entire written history of Egypt.

No mention -- ever -- of large numbers of slaves (of any brand) escaping. In all the history of Egypt.

And yes, they did record defeats, and failures, so that lame excuse simply does not fly. (the excuse being that they don't record fails-- false)

The fact is? EXODUS NEVER TOOK PLACE, BECAUSE THE HEBREWS WERE NEVER IN EGYPT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

http://www.2001translation.com/Authenticity.htm#_4

 

[Kenny]

No. Actually, that only makes your case worse: Paul never did write about a human/mortal Jesus character (if you ignore all the false books he allegedly wrote).

In fact, all of the accepted letters by Paul, speak of a celestial, pure-spirit being, who was never human at all.

But nevermind that... 50ACE is too little, too late-- something like a whole generation too late, in fact.

Where are your writings that were written around the year 30ACE?

So... Yale University (regardless of whether he wrote about Jesus) as a dating point which says that they were written before the end of the first century, fulfilling all the requirements that you asked for wasn't enough.


I REST MY CASE!

Nothing will ever suffice (contrary to what you said)

PS - I loved the bean statement

Have a great day... signing off of this line of discussion

 

[nPeace]

Well, there is Justice, and then? There is Mercy.

In truth, most folk don't want Justice-- they want either Mercy or Revenge, depending if it's them (mercy), their family (mercy again) or someone they feel has Done Them Wrong (revenge).

Of course... Justice must be commiserate with the crime.

And, of course, the whole Hell shtick doesn't meet that criteria-- a finite lifetime of behaviors is never-ever worthy of infinite results. Ever.

No-- hell is just Revenge, never Justice. Oh well.

"Justice must be commiserate with the crime."
What do you mean? Do you mean like, "I'm not going to chop off your head, because you didn't cut anyone's head off. you only stabbed them to death." Is that what you mean? Just asking to be sure.

Um... but I said nothing about hell.

 

[nPeace]

Who said I'm convinced? I think the dates are quite reasonable. I have also made a study of how things are dated, using multiple disciplines. Carbon 14 is but one tiny tool in the arsenal, but it's well collaborated by the other methods. But yeah-- 40-50 thousand years ago are some of the oldest human-created artifacts. They are over in Australia, by the way. The aborigines have an unbroken history going back that far at least.

They must have had a huge laugh, when the world was "created" a scant 6000 years ago, and wondered what all the fuss was, having had a history many times that.



Not even slightly worried. Because I understand how fossils are made, and I also understand how erosion works... the planet is not static, not even slightly. The surface is constantly being churnned up, eroded, uplifted, re-made, re-deposited and so on.

Look at the Mississippi Delta, for example-- it is literally made of the corpses of mountains...



Sorry-- but your link points to "bible dot ca" which means? It is absolutely not to be trusted even a LITTLE bit, with respect to actual archaeology. So I reject your link out of hand, wholesale, with barely a glance.

I absolutely do not accept a single word that website says.

Yes. I find this is common with atheist, and skeptics, on these forums. Something that is generally considered unfair, and a closed-minded approach.

However, I think everyone has their own choices to make, and if some choose to close their eyes, and clasp their ears, and sing "La La La." That's their privilege.
I certainly have that privilege as well.

The reason I gave you the link was to show the source of the fossil, and hope you did your own research into it.
Although dated 110 million years ago, it is considered a fraud.
Perhaps you might more like these non-creationist links then...

An Alleged Cretaceous Finger
A Topical Summary of the Paluxy "Man Track" Controversy
Paluxy Man — The Creationist Piltdown

Then we have the ones that are still being considered... baffling - to say the least.

This 290-million-year-old human footprint has experts baffled
The Zapata Track
In 1987 paleontologist Jerry MacDonald discovered a number of fossilized tracks from many different species of animals and birds in a Permian strata dated at 290 to 248 million years ago. Among the tracks were prints of a human foot.

500 Million-Year-Old Human Footprint Fossil Baffles Scientists
...found a fossilized human footprint about the size of a US 13 shoe (3.5″W x 10.25″L) stepping on a trilobite. Now, trilobites only existed between 260 to 600 million years ago, so this makes it the oldest human fossil footprint ever discovered!

Trilobites were small marine invertebrates related to crabs and shrimps. Scientists currently think humans emerged 1 or 2 million years ago and only began wearing such shoes a few thousand years ago.
This archaeological discovery could be sufficient to overturn all conventionally accepted ideas of human and geological evolution.

Another astonishing trilobite fossil discovery was made in Antelope Spring, Arizona on July 20, 1968 by Dr. Clifford Burdick, a consulting geologist from Tucson, Arizona. He found an impression of a child’s foot in a bed of shale.

SIX MILLION-YEAR-OLD HUMAN FOOTPRINT DISCOVERED IN CRETE RAISES MAJOR QUESTIONS ABOUT OUR EVOLUTION
THESE 550-MILLION-YEAR-OLD FOOTPRINTS COULD BE THE OLDEST EVER DISCOVERED
Scientists discover 'oldest footprints on Earth' in southern China dating back 550 million year
Fossil footprints challenge established theories of human evolution
600 Million-year-old Humanoid fossils found in Antarctica
The most puzzling thing about these fossils, however, is that they predate the dinosaurs, hundreds of millions of years before anything resembling hominids first appeared. The two near perfectly preserved skeletons are thought to be 600 million years old. Older than any previously discovered vertebrates. Older than any land-living organism yet discovered in the fossil record. Much older than anything even resembling a creature complex enough to be a biped.

Tiny, 540-Million-Year-Old Human Ancestor Didn't Have an Anus
A speck-size creature without an anus is the oldest known prehistoric ancestor of humans, a new study finds.
Oldest known lizard fossil pushes group’s origins back 75 million years
Prehistoric teeth fossils dating back 9.7 million years 'could rewrite human history'
The dental remains were found by scientists sifting through gravel and sand in a former bed of the Rhine river near the town of Eppelsheim.
They resemble those belonging to “Lucy”, a 3.2 million-year-old skeleton of an extinct primate related to humans and found in Ethiopia.
However, they do not resemble those of any other species found in Europe or Asia.

Scientists were so confused by the find they held off from publishing their research for the past year, Deutsche Welle reports.
Herbert Lutz, director at the Mainz Natural History Museum and head of the research team, told local media: "They are clearly ape teeth. Their characteristics resemble African finds that are four to five million years younger than the fossils excavated in Eppelsheim.

“This is a tremendous stroke of luck, but also a great mystery."
At a press conference announcing the discovery, the mayor of Mainz suggested the find could force scientists to reassess the history of early humans.

The London Hammer (also known as the "London Artifact") is a name given to a hammer made of iron and wood that was found in London, Texas in 1936. Part of the hammer is embedded in a limy rock concretion, leading to it being regarded by some as an anomalous artifact, asking how an obviously man-made tool could come to be encased in a 400 million year old rock. It has been stated that carbon dating "showed inconclusive dates ranging from the present to 700 years ago."

... and the ones called fake being accepted as real.

'Fake' fossil is actually 189 million-year-old remains of undiscovered species
For 30 years, an overlooked dinosaur fossil at the Doncaster Museum and Art Gallery in Doncaster, U.K. was believed to be a plastic replica of an ichthyosaur, a prehistoric aquatic reptile. Thanks to the work of one young paleontologist, not only was the fossil found to be real, but it is the 189 million-year-old remains of a previously unknown species of the ancient reptile.
Dinosaur fossil thought to be fake for 30 years turns out to be 189 million-year-old undiscovered species - NY Daily News

... and the ingenious fakes

Fatal flaw fingers fake fossil fly
The unique and almost perfect specimen of Fannia scalaris – the latrine
fly – is preserved in amber and was thought to have originated from the
Baltic region some 38 million years ago.


As my sister said, time will tell.
As it remains, what you are applying to Christians seems very much to apply you - you have nothing.
Moreover, what you imagine you have appears to be nothing more than dreams, hope, and beliefs.

 

[nPeace]

What? What is this ... ahem... "evidence" you cite, but do not actually say what it is?



NOT in actual SCIENCE. Eyewitness is *never* acceptable as evidence. It's simply unreliable to the extreme.

Sorry about that, Chief.



See above. It may work in a court of law (unfortunately) but it'll never fly in Science.


So. You have zero actual evidence, then? None, nada, zip, nothing, not-one-thing?

Got it. I already knew that, actually, but there you go...

I can and have provided evidence.

Don't you know if you resemble any of your family members?
Don't you have evidence that you inherited characteristics from family members?
Or do you need scientists to tell you those things?

No scientists ever entered my home, nor ventured into my backyard, but there is tons of evidence there. I actually feel sorry for those who feel they need to rely on scientists to tell them how to live their lives, and by what means to do so, when scientists don't even venture into that field.

That's revealing, isn't it?