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Why can not religious beliefs and theory of evolution go hand in hand?

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I don't think there is any overlap, that's why it's called non-overlapping magisteria.
If it can be measured (in SI units), it is science, if it can't, it is not science and open for grabs between maths, philosophy, law, economics, etc. But science is out.
The margins between e.g. philosophy and religion are a bit more blurry and believers will surely object to my proposal that religion should be constrained to their core subjects like "sin", "salvation", "karma", etc.

We cannot measure the truth of the spirit through scientific means any more than we can assess the truth of science through a spiritual sensitivity. And too, both traditions bring forth fruits in their own terms—rockets to the moon and atomic power in the former case, for example, and institutions of humane concern and visions of the moral good in the latter. Neither, within its own terms, can produce what the other offers. Constructionism asks us to eliminate the traditional opposition: Science vs. Religion. Rather, we move to a position of both/and, where we are invited to explore from many standpoints both the positive and negative consequences of each.
(Gergen, K. J., & Gergen, M. (2010). Social construction entering the dialogue. Css Pub. )

 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No. There has to be a mutual respect, acknowledgment of each discipline. Problems arise when one field crosses over to the other. Science may find a creator God unnecessary, but to insist there is no creator God crosses over to the field of theology.
And, of course, science doesn't insist there is no god, though it does maintain that humans evolved like all other animals.
No to the first. As I stated, the same as stating a creator God is not necessary.
No. Saying a creator God is not necessary for evolution, or earthquakes, or floods, or photosynthesis; saying these things can be explained by ordinary, unguided chemistry or physics, is well within the purview of science.
 
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Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Due to an other OP about ToE i wanted to ask this.

Why is it so difficult to be an believer in God (or other deities) and still say.
Theory of evolution may have a lot of truth in It?

Belief is a belief/ Theory of Evolution just a Theory about how life started in our universe.

Non of them give a 100% clear answer.

Or what do you think?
Evolution is a boring theory. I think that's what I hate the most about it.

As far as why it doesn't fit with my beliefs?
Men aren't animals. We are rulers of the earth.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
But they make conflicting claims. For them not to "overlap", one or both of them need to retreat from territory they both currently claim. Some sort of deference would be necessary to actually achieve NOMA.

For one thing, you are asking science to 'prove' a negative. I think that's the reason science holds to 'a creator God is not necessary as opposed to God does not exist.

For another example of the ‘hard’ use of science by theology, consider the initial reactions of theologians to Darwin’s theory of evolution by natural selection. These reactions were, in fact, extremely varied; and some theologians, at least, had no problem whatsoever with them. For an example of this, we need look no further than The Origin of Species itself. The second edition of that work includes the following statement from Darwin:
A celebrated author and divine has written to me that ‘he has gradually learnt to see that it is just as noble a conception of the Deity to believe that He created a few original forms capable of self-development into other and needful forms, as to believe that He required a fresh act of creation to supply the voids caused by the action of His laws.’
Science and Theology: Consonances | Thinking Faith: The online journal of the Jesuits in Britain
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
No. Saying a creator God is not necessary for evolution, or earthquakes, or floods, or photosynthesis; saying these things can be explained by ordinary, unguided chemistry or physics, is well within the purview of science.
[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

Science cannot 'prove' a creator God does not exist, only not required.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Evolution is a boring theory. I think that's what I hate the most about it.

As far as why it doesn't fit with my beliefs?
Men aren't animals. We are rulers of the earth.
Doesn't claiming men aren't animals trespass dangerously far into science's magisterium?
Are animals and rulers of the Earth supposed to be mutually exclusive?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Science cannot 'prove' a creator God does not exist, only not required.
Exactly! -- which is why science ignores the whole issue.
For one thing, you are asking science to 'prove' a negative. I think that's the reason science holds to 'a creator God is not necessary as opposed to God does not exist.
I think a large part of it is in response to religion's use of known, explicable scientific phenomena, like evolution, as evidence of divine magic.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I don't think there is any overlap, that's why it's called non-overlapping magisteria.
If it can be measured (in SI units), it is science, if it can't, it is not science and open for grabs between maths, philosophy, law, economics, etc. But science is out.
[/quote]
Obviously there is a conflict between science and religion. As I pointed out to @pearl , religion often makes claims that conflict with our scientific understanding.

Do you mean that some idealized version of religion doesn't conflict with science? Because I'm talking about actual religion and actual science; they do overlap.


The margins between e.g. philosophy and religion are a bit more blurry and believers will surely object to my proposal that religion should be constrained to their core subjects like "sin", "salvation", "karma", etc.
So you don't think that religions should consider empirical questions like these to be within their scope?

- the historicity of the religion's founder(s)
- the efficacy of their religion's prayers
- dating of religious relics
- past deeds of their god(s)
- the factualness of the religion's miracle claims

Really? That's bonkers.

I mean, it's one thing to disagree with the claims that a religion makes, but it's a whole other kettle of fish for you, an outsider to their religion, to say that they're doing their religion "wrong" and that their religion shouldn't even consider it okay to explore these issues.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Obviously there is a conflict between science and religion. As I pointed out to @pearl , religion often makes claims that conflict with our scientific understanding.
Until the 18th century, religion was basically all there was to explain the world. Science took that supremacy away by being of better utility. But people still living in the 18th century are fighting against science and want religion to keep its power.
NOMa is a peace offering. Science is not going to touch on religion if religion isn't interfering with science. Some religions took that offer, others did not and they try to invade schools and universities. They risk scientists going into churches and holding lectures there.
Do you mean that some idealized version of religion doesn't conflict with science? Because I'm talking about actual religion and actual science; they do overlap.
Because some religions can't live in peace with science. They basically believe that reality depends on what you believe, if you believe hard enough.
So you don't think that religions should consider empirical questions like these to be within their scope?

- the historicity of the religion's founder(s)
Nope.
- the efficacy of their religion's prayers
Nope.
- dating of religious relics
Nope.
- past deeds of their god(s)
Yep.
- the factualness of the religion's miracle claims
Nope.
Really? That's bonkers.

I mean, it's one thing to disagree with the claims that a religion makes, but it's a whole other kettle of fish for you, an outsider to their religion, to say that they're doing their religion "wrong" and that their religion shouldn't even consider it okay to explore these issues.
Religion, at it's core, is about belief in the spiritual. That's what only religion can deal with.
Some religions have additional, secondary aspects which, if they want to deal with, should deal with the tools of trade they are using - not belief.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
The main reason science and religion cannot see eye to eye is science education appears to be using a revisionist history approach to religion. it is judging by the wrong standards. For example, the modern definition of human is connected to DNA, with DNA not discovered until the 1950's.

Science before this discovery of DNA, had no idea about DNA and genes. Evolution in 1940's was based on Darwin as well as some wild notions that were not exactly true. Now we are taught that religion from 6000 years ago should have known better that science did in 1940's. The Bible should have explained Genesis using DNA. Science was wrong many times, especially before Darwin. Why do we think that science is infallible and correct now and why expect the past to use the present state of the art; revisionist history.

A more rational way to approach the ancient past is to take into account the state of the art for that time and not our time. About 6000 years ago, science was embryonic. The first theories appear; Genesis. However, the people of that time appear to have a good handle on human nature. They saw human nature acting within the fixed matrix of a creation that was beyond their embryonic science comprehension. The world was magic, but human nature was understood in terms of basic needs, fears and desires.

If they say the first human appeared, it would not be connected to DNA, since this was not in their science wheelhouse to claim. It had to be connected to human nature and new type of temperament. This new type of human had what they called will and choice, and therefore was no longer at the mercy of instincts. The new human brain could learn and comprehend good and evil, which is a human construct not condoned by creation or God.

Adam and Eve, as the first two modern humans, appears to be connected to the operating system of the brain, since a major change would be needed to allow consciousness to have willpower and choice. It was not about looking different or having more fingers and toes. It may have been epigenetic at the level of neurons, cause old genes to do new things in new ways. But they saw a difference in behavior and abilities. Deeper in Genesis human become corrupt in terms of unnatural behavior; choice.

In Genesis, the authors went out of their way to show that Adam and Eve were not born by natural procreation methods. The birth was not a biological birth. 6000 years ago, the humans were migratory herder and gathers who would have understood sexual reproduction and breeding. Adam and Eve were explained differently than the common sense of their time; sexual. It was not bloodline, like the rest of the Bible genealogy. It was like a quantum jump in disposition.

Adam and Eve have two children Cain and Abel. Cain was the tiller of soil and Abel was the herder of animals. When Cain kills Abel farming supersedes migratory herding and civilization sticks. The new human disposition begins to dominate.

In terms of DNA, these disposition difference between their two children; old and new human, shows that even though both the dispositions of Adam and Eve had been created in ways different from natural reproduction; conditioned, their human DNA decided the output of procreation; going both ways; past and future. Cain is sent away and Adam and Eve have a third son Seth, Seth is more balanced in terms of instinct and willpower.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
For one thing, you are asking science to 'prove' a negative. I think that's the reason science holds to 'a creator God is not necessary as opposed to God does not exist.
I think you're misrepresenting what I've said in the thread so far. There's way more to religion besides the claim "God exists;" for instance, there are religious claims about the origins of life and humanity (i.e. what this thread is about).

That being said, science "proves" negatives all the time, so I don't see why you think this is a major obstacle.

I mean, what do you think it means to declare a species extinct? To disprove a theory about physical laws? Rejecting, say, Lamarckism or phlogiston theory is "proving a negative."

I'm not sure that theism is as much of an exception as you're making it out to be.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The main reason science and religion cannot see eye to eye is science education appears to be using a revisionist history approach to religion. it is judging by the wrong standards. For example, the modern definition of human is connected to DNA, with DNA not discovered until the 1950's.

Science before this discovery of DNA, had no idea about DNA and genes.
I have no idea where you're getting this stuff from. The work that Watson, Crick & Franklin did in the 50s was about establishing the structure of DNA. The fact that DNA existed was known before that.

And genetics goes back to Gregor Mendel in the 1860s.

Edit: and the idea that offspring inherit traits from their parents is older than recorded history.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Well, yeah, I haven't seen any apes running for president although some of the people running don't seem much smarter than animals.
It seems to me that a lot of leaders who claim that humans aren't animals are spineless enough to be invertebrates, but that's probably just a coincidence.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well, yeah, I haven't seen any apes running for president although some of the people running don't seem much smarter than animals.
But we are apes, biologically, and you can't deny this without venturing into the scientific magisterium.
 

Viker

Your beloved eccentric Auntie Cristal
Evolution is a boring theory. I think that's what I hate the most about it.

As far as why it doesn't fit with my beliefs?
Men aren't animals. We are rulers of the earth.
We're definitely animals and I am sorry, bugs rule the rock they let us share with them.
 

Messianic Israelite

Active Member
No. The entire manufacturing system evolved together, by known and easily demonstrable mechanisms.
And the flood.... Don't get me started.
Hi Valjean. Good afternoon. “Because DNA and proteins depend so intimately on each other for their survival, it’s hard to imagine one of them having evolved first. But it’s just as implausible for them to have emerged simultaneously out of a prebiotic soup.” Carl Zimmer, “How and Where Did Life on Earth Arise?” Science, Vol. 309, 1 July 2005, p. 89.

Also I should mention that there is ample evidence for a world wide flood. They are occurrences all over the world which prove that the entire land was once under water. The cliffs of dover, for example. Fossils and layered strata did not form over a billion years; they formed in months.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Hi Valjean. Good afternoon. “Because DNA and proteins depend so intimately on each other for their survival, it’s hard to imagine one of them having evolved first. But it’s just as implausible for them to have emerged simultaneously out of a prebiotic soup.” Carl Zimmer, “How and Where Did Life on Earth Arise?” Science, Vol. 309, 1 July 2005, p. 89.

Also I should mention that there is ample evidence for a world wide flood. They are occurrences all over the world which prove that the entire land was once under water. The cliffs of dover, for example. Fossils and layered strata did not form over a billion years; they formed in months.
The components of life -- fatty acids, lipids, amino acids, &c will form spontaneously, through simple chemistry. Lifelike, self-reproducing structures are known to form, even nucleic acids. These have all been observed in the lab. The first "life" was not the complex, DNA programmed life we see today.

The alternative, magic poofing? That's outright magic, and a great deal less likely than the self-generation of lifelike structures we can observe in the lab.

A worldwide flood? This absolutely did not happen, and half a dozen disciplines will confirm it.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=aron+ra.+noah's+flood
 
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Heyo

Veteran Member
Also I should mention that there is ample evidence for a world wide flood. They are occurrences all over the world which prove that the entire land was once under water.
Nope. Even though we find sedimentary rock almost everywhere, you can't conclude that the landmasses have been under water at the same time.
The cliffs of dover, for example. Fossils and layered strata did not form over a billion years; they formed in months.
The Cliffs of Dover are prime evidence that the earth is old.

"During the Late Cretaceous, between 100 and 66 million years ago, Great Britain and much of Europe were submerged under a great sea. The sea bottom was covered with white mud formed from fragments of coccoliths, the skeletons of tiny algae that floated in the surface waters and sank to the bottom and, together with the remains of bottom-living creatures, formed muddy sediments. It is thought that the sediments were deposited very slowly, probably half a millimetre a year, equivalent to about 180 coccoliths piled one on top of another. Up to 500 metres of sediments were deposited in some areas.[6] The weight of overlying sediments caused the deposits to become consolidated into chalk.[7] British chalk deposits are considered stratigraphically to belong in the Chalk Group." - White Cliffs of Dover - Wikipedia

You can't find an explanation how the Cliffs could have formed in less than 100,000 years without resorting to magic.
 
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