Why can't Muslims criticize Islam

[FearGod]

That is neither a very realistic view nor a very religious one, though.

Nor is it particularly compatible with a discussion forum.

Thank you

 

[sun rise]

That is neither a very realistic view nor a very religious one, though.

Nor is it particularly compatible with a discussion forum.

From what I've seen most people here and in other forums operate with this philosophy I have my views and my own opinions, it may go against yours and I defend mines,

 

[LuisDantas]

From what I've seen most people here and in other forums operate with this philosophy I have my views and my own opinions, it may go against yours and I defend mines,

Two people speaking at the same time do not a dialog make.

Understanding takes willingness to listen and to accept the logical consequences of what one says.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I will criticize Islaam as much as I see fit to. As should anyone.

I fear that you will be consistently disappointed if you expect anything else.

And of course, you should be so disappointed as long as you maintain such an unreasonable expectation.

I have no idea of why you would expect otherwise.

There is a different between criticizing and trolling and simply commenting for the sake of commenting.

 

[LuisDantas]

Indeed, there is.

 

[Cooky]

That's a pretty lowly thing to think of Arabs. Myself, I do blame the religion. Sane and rational people do not normally, usually, or typically become violent without provocation. But the books of Jehovah demand violence for many different things. Even Jesus turned violent at the Temple.

I'm glad that in the end, we agree. It is the books that make the radically religious violent.

...They call it "fundamentalism".

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I don't think anyone needs to scare the masses about Islam. We all see, with our own two eyes and hear with our own two ears what goes on. The abuses toward women, the fighting in the name of God.

I see the same things in the United States. You forget, I work at a medical facility in an area that touts itself as a religious community(Devout Catholic). I get women that come in abused because of a drunken husband but find themselves back at Sunday Mass.

...People quote verses from the Quran for answers as to where and why these religious fanatics do such awful things in this day and age.

This is a behavior that all people of faith who follow a religious text do. They either take the text for literal value and exhibit said behaviors to the extreme or they discern the allegorical, the metaphorical, or literal. This isn't allocated to one specific religion but people in general.

There is a high correlation between education and extremism as well as poverty. So mix all that together you'll get your extremist.

 

[Cooky]

I see the same things in the United States. You forget, I work at a medical facility in an area that touts itself as a religious community(Devout Catholic). I get women that come in abused because of a drunken husband but find themselves back at Sunday Mass.



This is a behavior that all people of faith who follow a religious text do. They either take the text for literal value and exhibit said behaviors to the extreme or they discern the allegorical, the metaphorical, or literal. This isn't allocated to one specific religion but people in general.

There is a high correlation between education and extremism as well as poverty. So mix all that together you'll get your extremist.

I think you misunderstand. I'm against the 'Lording-over' type. People who want to control other people's lives based on their *fundamentalist* religious beliefs. A drunken husband is not exactly the fundamentalist type which I'm referring to, whom I have problems with.

...That's a different kind of problem altogether.

 

[Cooky]

...Why so much fundamentalism in Islam?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I think you misunderstand. I'm against the 'Lording-over' type. People who want to control other people's lives based on their *fundamentalist* religious beliefs. A drunken husband is not exactly the fundamentalist type which I'm referring to, whom I have problems with.

...That's a different kind of problem altogether.

The fact of the matter is the drunken person comes from a religious community, a community that espouses divinely inspired morals and a code of conduct, that is the point. We consequentially base our views off of the religious beliefs and their community at large through the actions of individuals. If Islam is subject to such a critique then so are all the religions in the world. I've had very poor direct experiences with Sikhs and Hindus, and Buddhist, with that being said am I right to have a worldview of their faith based off my own negative encounters, or should I comparmentalize these experiences as outliers?

I'm sure my Muslim college mates who are just as American as I, could show you a great time in Long Beach and are as chill as anyone that I know. I think my overall position I'm trying to make is we cannot judge from what we see on television as if the actions of a few represent that of a billion people. I've met Muslims from Indonesia, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Ethiopia, and many although submit to their respective cultural norms, are as cool as any other American. What I don't like is the fearmongering.

As I said earlier I'm more of being in danger from a Christian here in the United States, than a Muslim.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

As I said earlier I'm more of being in danger from a Christian here in the United States, than a Muslim.

That's pretty much the reality here in America. We are so very privileged to have large oceans along our borders, making a barrier that not even Julius Ceasar, Napoleon, Alexander, or Hannibal could march across. Other than 9/11, we'll probably never even know or have the degree of Islamic extremism Europe has. And certainly the Muslims I've met have been far more polite and courteous than the average American.
Those Bible Thumping Christians though, they may not blow themselves up but they are guilty of perpetuating violence at all levels from the streets to our highest institutions. I tend to relate and get along with Muslims even if for no other reason than a mutual understanding that we are both outsiders in this land. But those Christian fundies pretty much make it known and clear upfront that we are enemies, unable to have even mutual understandings because they won't give me that consideration.
But it wouldn't surprise me if a study found that marginalized groups tend to get along better with each other than they do the culturally dominate group that marginalizes them.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Those Bible Thumping Christians though, they may not blow themselves up

Give it time. Asymetric warfare is a tool of the oppressed, and suicide attacks the tactic of the desperate. As religion becomes less important to the mainstream, and the extremists tell each other how persecuted that makes them, I wouldn't be surprised to see it start.

I hope I'm wrong.

The rise of Trump and his empowering of the sorts of people I'd expect to resort to such tactics may keep them at bay a while longer. It may be one of the few positive effects of his presidency.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

we'll probably never even know or have the degree of Islamic extremism Europe has.

True. but we also take in impoverished people (See Trump's ignoranrt views of migrant Mexicans coming to the United States) with some among the population that actually do harm to their host country. If Muslims as a general whole, really were that dogmatic I think our policies towards Muslim countries would be a lot different, I mean after all we can do business with the Saudis.

And certainly the Muslims I've met have been far more polite and courteous than the average American.

Same with me. I've met some really cool Muslims that are so chill, I mean they smoke Hookah, drink hot tea and discuss the same stuff I'd discuss over beer whether its football or politics or the California weather. These are the same individuals that read the Holy Qur'an and pray five times a day facing the Qibla. I've met gay Muslims who are super chill and in casual conversation I've often asked whether their alternative lifestyles conflict with their spiritual beliefs and I'm always told "allahu a'lam" or God knows best.

While the average Muslim migrant is just worried about making a life here in the states, I see the average American trying to get over on the next man, or conduct homophobic or racist practices or creating systems of injustice even to those with disabilities.

I tend to relate and get along with Muslims even if for no other reason than a mutual understanding that we are both outsiders in this land. But those Christian fundies pretty much make it known and clear upfront that we are enemies, unable to have even mutual understandings because they won't give me that consideration.
But it wouldn't surprise me if a study found that marginalized groups tend to get along better with each other than they do the culturally dominate group that marginalizes them.

I think you and I are on the same page as I hold the same sentiments. I may not agree with everything Muslims believe or do, but I can relate to the struggles of hardship of being an outsider or to be casted negatively to the general public. I even hold court and hold other so-called Christians especially black Christians in contempt for espousing the same rhetoric that was espoused to those of the civil rights movement. These same Christians that are supposed to be "God fearing," these same Christians are also the ones influential in the killings of people like Matthew Shepard. Or plan abortion clinic attacks or the ones that attack Jewish Centers as well as influence people to walk in historic black churches to kill parishioners.

Like I said earlier I'm more in danger of losing my life to a Catholic cholo, or a Christian Crip gang member than someone from ISIS. I think most Americans are, but we often feed into the "Islam-is-taking-over-the-world" rhetoric.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Give it time. Asymetric warfare is a tool of the oppressed, and suicide attacks the tactic of the desperate. As religion becomes less important to the mainstream, and the extremists tell each other how persecuted that makes them, I wouldn't be surprised to see it start.

I hope I'm wrong.

The rise of Trump and his empowering of the sorts of people I'd expect to resort to such tactics may keep them at bay a while longer. It may be one of the few positive effects of his presidency.

Trump has embolden the racist in this country to be more outspoken and active which has caused the death of one in Charlottesville already.

 

[Notanumber]

Everyone that objects to being controlled by Islam is automatically a racist.

 

[Cooky]

The fact of the matter is the drunken person comes from a religious community, a community that espouses divinely inspired morals and a code of conduct, that is the point. We consequentially base our views off of the religious beliefs and their community at large through the actions of individuals. If Islam is subject to such a critique then so are all the religions in the world. I've had very poor direct experiences with Sikhs and Hindus, and Buddhist, with that being said am I right to have a worldview of their faith based off my own negative encounters, or should I comparmentalize these experiences as outliers?

I'm sure my Muslim college mates who are just as American as I, could show you a great time in Long Beach and are as chill as anyone that I know. I think my overall position I'm trying to make is we cannot judge from what we see on television as if the actions of a few represent that of a billion people. I've met Muslims from Indonesia, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Ethiopia, and many although submit to their respective cultural norms, are as cool as any other American. What I don't like is the fearmongering.

As I said earlier I'm more of being in danger from a Christian here in the United States, than a Muslim.

But everyone sins, Epic. It's part of our human nature.

...What I'm referring to here are the negative outcomes based on being religiously devout. Being religiously negligent, is something else.

I have noticed that the most devout fundamentalists from both Protestantism and Islam, are often cold hearted. They tend to see everything in black and white, if you know what I mean. These are the same ones that tend to become furious with their peers, or family members should they criticize their faith.

There has never been a strict fundamentalist movement that has not become bent on control. It is a guaranteed road to failure.

 

[Cooky]

For me, my interests currently lie in Catholic Mysticism. Something completely contrary to funfamentalism. It is also completely orthodox, mainstream Catholicism -many people don't realize that.

Sufism would be a similar path in Islam I think.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

But everyone sins, Epic. It's part of our human nature.

...What I'm referring to here are the negative outcomes based on being religiously devout. Being religiously negligent, is something else.

I have noticed that the most devout fundamentalists from both Protestantism and Islam, are often cold hearted. They tend to see everything in black and white, if you know what I mean. These are the same ones that tend to become furious with their peers, or family members should they criticize their faith.

There has never been a strict fundamentalist movement that has not become bent on control. It is a guaranteed road to failure.

But not all fundamentalists that are devout are fanatical. I agree that in history the most devout seemingly have done the most damage and that rings true today. But we must remember that fundamentalism also has its positive uses as well.

But I agree fundamentalist fanaticism is a problem

 

[Notanumber]

Trump has embolden the racist in this country to be more outspoken and active which has caused the death of one in Charlottesville already.

If we had Donald Trump running the UK, we would not be on this slippery slope of being silenced.

 

[LuisDantas]

...Why so much fundamentalism in Islam?

It is difficult to avoid a fundamentalist attitude in a doctrine that conceives of itself as literally god-ordained, perfect until the end of times, and divinely protected from any need of renewal.

"Islam" translates as "Peaceful submission to God". And it shows.