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Why can't some people accept that the Israelites were black?

My first name means "tower." Doesn't mean I'm made of bricks. :)

The Ancient Egyptians weren't what most folk think of as "black," and I'm fair certain Canaan was in the Middle East.
Oh, PLEASE! The Romans "ruthlessly persecuted" anyone and everyone, including one another and people considerably paler than they were. You're veering into conspiracy nut territory here.

May I ask why this issue is so important to you?
If a people lose the knowledge of who they are, they have lost the knowledge of their Nationality, History and Heritage. A people without a History is a people that doesn't exist.

In scripture the children of Israel are prophesy to lose the knowledge of who they really are. This is also part of their punishment, for disobeying the most high.
 

Drolefille

PolyPanGeekGirl
According to Zondervan's Compact Bible Dictionary listed under Ham it defines as such:

He became the progenitor of the dark races; not the Negroes, but the Egyptians, Ethiopians, Libyans and Canaanites.

The Bible refers to Egypt as Ham.

Psalms 105:23 Then Israel entered Egypt; Jacob lived as an alien in the land of Ham.

Psalm 78:51 He struck down all the firstborn of Egypt, the firstfruits of manhood in the tents of Ham. (NIV)


The "kohan" (priestly/Levitical) gene test is a joke because they don't have any true levites to test against. The only way that a Levite can be proven is through their family records which were destroyed (or stolen) during the 2nd Temple period.
I'm certainly not a biblical scholar but doesn't "Not the Negroes" actually contradict your point?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I guess this thing didn't recognize that my responses were written above in bold, but there they are.
Your responses?
So, you're saying that you are Quest-News-Serv... who on Tuesday 04/20/2010 at 19:23. submitted THIS?

You do know that plagiarism is a crime, don't you?
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
If a people lose the knowledge of who they are, they have lost the knowledge of their Nationality, History and Heritage. A people without a History is a people that doesn't exist.

In scripture the children of Israel are prophesy to lose the knowledge of who they really are. This is also part of their punishment, for disobeying the most high.
Do you think people are defined by skin tone?
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
According to Zondervan's Compact Bible Dictionary listed under Ham it defines as such:

He became the progenitor of the dark races; not the Negroes, but the Egyptians, Ethiopians, Libyans and Canaanites.

The Bible refers to Egypt as Ham.

Psalms 105:23 Then Israel entered Egypt; Jacob lived as an alien in the land of Ham.

Psalm 78:51 He struck down all the firstborn of Egypt, the firstfruits of manhood in the tents of Ham. (NIV)


The "kohan" (priestly/Levitical) gene test is a joke because they don't have any true levites to test against. The only way that a Levite can be proven is through their family records which were destroyed (or stolen) during the 2nd Temple period.

Yes, Ham is poetically associated with Egypt. Still has nothing to do with blackness. And while there is an isolated Rabbinic midrash that chimes with the Zondervan definition, there is simply nothing in the plain meaning of the text, or in the way that the later portions of the text refer to the older, to support the hypothesis that Ham is to be associated with black people.

And as for the kohen gene, you believe what you like about the accuracy of levitical lineage. But whether you accept accuracy of the oral transmission of lineage or not, the indisputible fact still remains that over 90% of the people claiming priestly heritage shared a specific gene marker basically not found in any other populace. And this gene marker appears in not only European and Middle Eastern Jews, but those of sub-Saharan Africa and those of India and Asia as well. Call it whatever you like, but it proves a constant genetic link between Jewish populations, including those separated for many centuries from the rest.

That has nothing to do with names, and everything to do with science.
 
Yes, Ham is poetically associated with Egypt. Still has nothing to do with blackness. And while there is an isolated Rabbinic midrash that chimes with the Zondervan definition, there is simply nothing in the plain meaning of the text, or in the way that the later portions of the text refer to the older, to support the hypothesis that Ham is to be associated with black people.

And as for the kohen gene, you believe what you like about the accuracy of levitical lineage. But whether you accept accuracy of the oral transmission of lineage or not, the indisputible fact still remains that over 90% of the people claiming priestly heritage shared a specific gene marker basically not found in any other populace. And this gene marker appears in not only European and Middle Eastern Jews, but those of sub-Saharan Africa and those of India and Asia as well. Call it whatever you like, but it proves a constant genetic link between Jewish populations, including those separated for many centuries from the rest.

That has nothing to do with names, and everything to do with science.
You should ask them what original DNA are they testing them against. The fact is that they are testing them against people who dwell in the region today such as the Sephardic Jews who are said to be Edomites. Besides, only approximately 10% of the Ashkenazi Jews show that they are even related to the Sephardim.[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica][/FONT]

The skeletons and skulls of the Ancient Egyptians clearly reflect they were Negroid people with features very similar to those of modern Black Nubians and other people of the Upper Nile and of East Africa.

Anthropologist, Count C. Volney spoke about the race of the Egyptians that produced the Pharaohs. He said: "The ancient Egyptians were true Negroes of the same type as all native born Africans."
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
You should ask them what original DNA are they testing them against. The fact is that they are testing them against people who dwell in the region today such as the Sephardic Jews who are said to be Edomites. Besides, only approximately 10% of the Ashkenazi Jews show that they are even related to the Sephardim.

This is patently false. The results of these tests have been published in highly reputable, peer-reviewed journals, and have been demonstrated repeatedly by replication.

And I have no idea where these slanders about the Sefardim come from, let alone the claptrap about the Ashkenazim.

You need to do actual research, involving reputable and legitimate sources. I have presumed that the things you've said are said from ignorance, but you should be aware that the use of such pseudoscience and rumor-mongery in anti-Semitic hate literature makes it even more offensive than it is on the surface. Many others who hear it will not be willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.
 

Sylvan

Unrepentant goofer duster
The Sparda... are you an affiliate of the Isrealite Church of Universal Practical Knowledge or one of their descendant organizations? There is a church of theirs a few blocks away from me with a really awesome picture of the triumphant return of black Jesus on a huge horse surrounded by flaming ezikiel UFO's marked with stars of david.

Confused?

Article
More info re: "real" black jews

To answer your question I think the reason is because most people accept the Black Hebrew Isrealite movement as a movement on its own with a history related to itself, early Black nationalism, and movements like the Nation of Islam as opposed to having anything to do with bona fide Judaism or its study.

1. JUDAH AFRICAN AMERICANS
2. BENJAMIN WEST INDIANS
3. LEVI HAITIANS
4. SIMEON DOMINICANS
5. EPHRAIM PEURTO RICANS
6. MANASSEH CUBANS
7. GAD N. AMERICAN INDIANS
8. REUBEN SEMINOLE INDIANS
9. ZEBULON GUATEMALA TO PANAMA
10. ASHER COLUMBIA TO URUGUAY
11. NAPTHALI ARGENTINA TO CHILE
12. ISSACHAR MEXICANS
THOSE PEOPLE WHOSE FATHERS ARE OF NEGROID OR INDIAN DESCENT
ARE GOD’S CHOSEN PEOPLE.
 
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Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
It is quickly becoming common knowledge to people waking up that the Israelites were indeed a black people. It is also understood that many (if not most or all) blacks of slave descent are Israelites as well.
Not really.

Why is it that in light of such information, people have such a hard time accepting these facts?
because its not true.

Looking at your explanations to fallingblood, I have to say that it takes minimal knowledge to debunk them. but I believe Levite has done a good job already. I will only add that you are using two 'conspiracy theories', perhaps because you find it comfortable. one is of course that it is certainly not common knowledge that the Israelites were black. it has also been claimed that the Jews were the English people, that the lost tribes of Israel are found all the way in Denmark and Scandinavia, that the true Jews where white Aryans, etc. in fact most people know Jesus as a bright hair bright eyed man. every ethnic group seem to have a thing for describing Jesus and the Biblical people as resembling to them. you are simply not different.

the other conspiracy theory that you use and claim that it is well founded, is about the Khazars. again, I'm sorry to disappoint you. but most Ashkenazi Jews are not descendent of the Khazars. it is true that the nobility and royalty of the Khazars have converted to Judaism, but this community was later absorbed into a larger Ashkenazi community of largely central European descent.
another interesting piece of information, that seems to be neglected here, but is very relevant. is that through the majority of Jewish history, it was the Sephardim who were the majority of world Jewry and only in the last few centuries the Ashkenazim, because of improving living standards in the European continent have become the majority of world Jewry. the fact is that inside Israel, it is pretty even. many are middle eastern Jews, descendent of people who always lived in the middle east, and many others are European Jews. so in this regard, you have still not accounted for the fact that throughout history the majority of the world Jews could not have come from the Khazars, and the fact that a great segment of the Jewish population in modern Israel always lived in the middle east.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
This is patently false. The results of these tests have been published in highly reputable, peer-reviewed journals, and have been demonstrated repeatedly by replication.

And I have no idea where these slanders about the Sefardim come from, let alone the claptrap about the Ashkenazim.

You need to do actual research, involving reputable and legitimate sources. I have presumed that the things you've said are said from ignorance, but you should be aware that the use of such pseudoscience and rumor-mongery in anti-Semitic hate literature makes it even more offensive than it is on the surface. Many others who hear it will not be willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

True that. the only people I saw using the 'Edomite' argument were white supremacists. it is also popular for them to use the Khazar argument.

the facts remain. it were the Jews through out history who still retained Judaism. who still held the Jewish laws and traditions, used Hebrew and other Jewish dialects. who were still considered by everyone around them and by themselves as Jews.
these new theories are modern, and seem to be a substitute for historical replacement theology now that the shift of supremacy has moved from religion to nationalism.
throughout history Jews were persecuted for the very reason that they were Jews. now people try to undermine Jewish identity by saying that Jews are not Jews. its pretty twisted really. but not original or new if you look at history. replacement theologies and theories are very historical, and they are no different today than they have always been. rooted in pseudo-history.
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
It is quickly becoming common knowledge to people waking up that the Israelites were indeed a black people. It is also understood that many (if not most or all) blacks of slave descent are Israelites as well.

Why is it that in light of such information, people have such a hard time accepting these facts?

maybe because the jews we see are a light skinned race ;)
 
Not really.


because its not true.

Looking at your explanations to fallingblood, I have to say that it takes minimal knowledge to debunk them. but I believe Levite has done a good job already. I will only add that you are using two 'conspiracy theories', perhaps because you find it comfortable. one is of course that it is certainly not common knowledge that the Israelites were black. it has also been claimed that the Jews were the English people, that the lost tribes of Israel are found all the way in Denmark and Scandinavia, that the true Jews where white Aryans, etc. in fact most people know Jesus as a bright hair bright eyed man. every ethnic group seem to have a thing for describing Jesus and the Biblical people as resembling to them. you are simply not different.

the other conspiracy theory that you use and claim that it is well founded, is about the Khazars. again, I'm sorry to disappoint you. but most Ashkenazi Jews are not descendent of the Khazars. it is true that the nobility and royalty of the Khazars have converted to Judaism, but this community was later absorbed into a larger Ashkenazi community of largely central European descent.
another interesting piece of information, that seems to be neglected here, but is very relevant. is that through the majority of Jewish history, it was the Sephardim who were the majority of world Jewry and only in the last few centuries the Ashkenazim, because of improving living standards in the European continent have become the majority of world Jewry. the fact is that inside Israel, it is pretty even. many are middle eastern Jews, descendent of people who always lived in the middle east, and many others are European Jews. so in this regard, you have still not accounted for the fact that throughout history the majority of the world Jews could not have come from the Khazars, and the fact that a great segment of the Jewish population in modern Israel always lived in the middle east.
The bible clearly shows us, that the children of Israel would be identifiable by their characteristics, or the things that are distinctive to them. Every racial group or nation has characteristics that are particular to them. The Hebrews / Israelites are no different in that manner.

Israel was put under punishment from the Most High. This punishment came in the form of "CURSES." These curses were to be a sign and a wonder. A sign is an indicator, so whatever race of people are suffering the fate of the curses found in the books of the law (bible) are Israelites.

The Europeans are the "Ten Lost Tribe of Israel"? My immediate response to this is to ask the question, "Can you please explain to me how those people relate to the curses and prophecies pertaining to Israel?" As was stated in the opening paragraph, the curses are a part of who the Israelites are as a people. Any people who claim Israelite heritage must fit the curses and prophecies. There is no way around it.

European Khazars became “Jews” in 740 A.D. In the 13th Tribe, Arthur Koestler traces the history of the Khazars and their rise to power.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
The bible clearly shows us, that the children of Israel would be identifiable by their characteristics, or the things that are distinctive to them. Every racial group or nation has characteristics that are particular to them. The Hebrews / Israelites are no different in that manner.

Israel was put under punishment from the Most High. This punishment came in the form of "CURSES." These curses were to be a sign and a wonder. A sign is an indicator, so whatever race of people are suffering the fate of the curses found in the books of the law (bible) are Israelites.

The Europeans are the "Ten Lost Tribe of Israel"? My immediate response to this is to ask the question, "Can you please explain to me how those people relate to the curses and prophecies pertaining to Israel?" As was stated in the opening paragraph, the curses are a part of who the Israelites are as a people. Any people who claim Israelite heritage must fit the curses and prophecies. There is no way around it.

European Khazars became “Jews” in 740 A.D. In the 13th Tribe, Arthur Koestler traces the history of the Khazars and their rise to power.

Really? this is your criteria for being Jewish? a supernatural belief in curses?
I'm sorry. no archaeology department, history department, or genetic department is going to accept that.

again. as for the Khazars. you simply need to really read academic material about this. the Khazars also converted to Christianity and Islam. in fact most of them DID NOT convert to Judaism. only the nobility and the royalty did. the majority of Ashkenazi Jews were ALREADY in existence. Ashkenazi Jewry did not begin with the Khazars.

these theories are highly popular among supremacist and racist groups, but are not accepted by scholars. ask your self, why?

EDIT:

another wrong information you listed is that the Khazars were European. technically that is not true, they were a Turkic people.
 
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Iti oj

Global warming is real and we need to act
Premium Member
True enough... Technically, we're all descended from Africans.

Doesn't make my lily white butt any darker, though. ;)
I thought multiregional theory was in for human evolution atm
 
Really? this is your criteria for being Jewish? a supernatural belief in curses?
I'm sorry. no archaeology department, history department, or genetic department is going to accept that.

again. as for the Khazars. you simply need to really read academic material about this. the Khazars also converted to Christianity and Islam. in fact most of them DID NOT convert to Judaism. only the nobility and the royalty did. the majority of Ashkenazi Jews were ALREADY in existence. Ashkenazi Jewry did not begin with the Khazars.

these theories are highly popular among supremacist and racist groups, but are not accepted by scholars. ask your self, why?

EDIT:

another wrong information you listed is that the Khazars were European. technically that is not true, they were a Turkic people.
This is a religious forum, is it not?

Thank you for the correction. The Khazars, a Turkish tribe who had established a Kingdom in the Caucasus region, and converted to Judaism in the 8th century A.D. Must have seen the doings of the Romans and Greeks, and seen it as an opportunity for them to take over the Hebrew identity, and thus control of the orthodox branch of the Hebrew religion - which indeed they did. They logically thinking that if 'Jesus' can be White, why not then, the entire Hebrew nation - which was by then a diaspora anyway?
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
This is a religious forum, is it not?
Correction: this is a Religious Education Forum. people will challenge you for making claims that you cannot support academically or objectivally.

Thank you for the correction. The Khazars, a Turkish tribe who had established a Kingdom in the Caucasus region, and converted to Judaism in the 8th century A.D. Must have seen the doings of the Romans and Greeks, and seen it as an opportunity for them to take over the Hebrew identity, and thus control of the orthodox branch of the Hebrew religion - which indeed they did. They logically thinking that if 'Jesus' can be White, why not then, the entire Hebrew nation - which was by then a diaspora anyway?
You are again wrong. history again disppoints the conspiracy theorists, but proves to be just as exciting. the Khazar royalty and nobility converted to Judaism because the two major powers around them: Byzantium and the Caliphate, were Christian and Muslim respectively. politicaly, they needed a religious ideology that is more solid than paganism. to repeat what I said, the majority of the Khazars DID NOT convert to Judaism, many of them converted to Christianity and Islam. it was the aristocracy who converted to Judaism.
your connection to Jesus is completely unrelated, because Jesus is in no way part of Jewish theology.
 

JacobEzra.

Dr. Greenthumb
It is quickly becoming common knowledge to people waking up that the Israelites were indeed a black people. It is also understood that many (if not most or all) blacks of slave descent are Israelites as well.

Why is it that in light of such information, people have such a hard time accepting these facts?


Lol where is it common knowledge?

As to why people have such hard time accepting these "facts" are because for one they are not facts. And it could also be because instead of just converting, or simply enjoying a foreign culture, some try to hijack it as their own and then get mad at the Jews who don't agree. Especially the "Black Hebrew Israelites" here, who have been videotaped making fun of the Shoah, and going on about how hte White man is the devil and has stolen the black mans identity. Which is far from the truth.

Not to mention thous who accept such "facts" are still a very very small minority within the black community
 
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