Why can't some people understand that Evolution is not Atheism.

[OurCreed]

That's wrong. An infinite period of time can still have a starting point, and there's no reason why an infinite period of time cannot be sequential. You're operating under a fundamental misconception about what "infinity" actually is.


I'm pretty certain Albert Einstein had a better grasp of infinity, and I'm also pretty sure that Albert Einstein was not a theist.


Again, this is based on a misunderstanding of what both infinity and the big bang were. The big bang wasn't necessarily the "beginning" of everything, it was just the point at which the matter that comprises our Universe expanded out from a singularity. We treat that as the beginning of our Universe for practical purposes, but there's not really any reason why nothing came before it (or even if "before" the big bang is a valid concept).


Your questions already assume that something (or someone) had to. You cannot assume that, and have no basis for it whatsoever.


False dichotomy. We know next to nothing about the physical laws which govern the Universe at the point of the planck time, so to assume that the Universe conformed to these assumptions at that time is utterly meaningless.


Again, you're wrong. There is nothing in science which says that the Universe could not have sprung into being without some sort of intelligent agency. That's utterly false.


Actually, it tells us neither. We cannot make any assessment of "nothing" since "nothing" isn't a thing we can observe and test. I also suggest you watch the Lawrence Krauss lecture "a Universe from nothing" on YouTube, in which he clearly explains how something can come from nothing, but what scientists mean by "nothing" isn't what most people mean.


Except it's completely unfalsifiable, unverified and has no evidence supporting it.


I dunno. Instead of making up an answer based on poor logic, go and talk to some cosmologists.


No it doesn't.


And yet they never published it. How weird.


Einstein was not a theist. He publicly denied rumours that he believed in a God, and stated that any God he made reference to was largely metaphorical.

In any case, why should it matter what Einstein believed? Even great minds can be wrong.

1) An infinite period of time that goes on eternally in the past...cannot have a starting point.

2) Albert Einstein believed in a Creator, not necessarily a God of the Abrahamic religions or any other religion, but he did accept the fact that this universe had a mastermind behind it, because he understood that a universe with a past that went on forever could not possibly be possible, because we exist on a certain point of existence of the universe. So the universe had a starting point, and since many scientists are intelligent, Einstein knew how great and complex this universe is.

So yes, he fully accepted the ideology of a certain greater being that was responsible for the creation of this universe.

We religious folk just take the step further and talk about Him sending messengers but that's another topic.

3) Where did those particles come from before the expansion (Big Bang)?

4) Yes we can, it couldn't have happened by itself. And if it did, it created such a perfect and beautiful world. Too much points towards God, the Designer, Creator, and Fashioner of all things.

5) You probably don't know anything, but we do.

6) What are you talking about, science FULLY supports it.

How can something just come into being in such a perfect state of harmony and correlation WITHOUT there being any intelligent DESIGNER behind it? First of all, are you denying the complexity of this magnificent universe?

It seems like only religious folks are in awe of this massive world.

7) Nothing is what nothing is...it is nothing. The reason you can't test it, is because it is not a THING to test. NO THING.

8) Logic completely supports it.

9) So far, this logic hasn't been bent by your arguments, you are just denying it and putting your own opinions into the mix.

10) So far, yes, everything IS pointing towards God.

What are the odds that messengers are coming down to Earth and bringing people to God, and these messengers somehow have brought miraculous scriptures with them with billions of followers?

11) You assume science is like one group of people?

12) I never said Einstein was a Theist.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

1) An infinite period of time that goes on eternally in the past...cannot have a starting point.

But an infinite period of time doesn't have to go eternally into the past, it can still have a starting point.

2) Albert Einstein believed in a Creator, not necessarily a God of the Abrahamic religions or any other religion, but he did accept the fact that this universe had a mastermind behind it, because he understood that a universe with a past that went on forever could not possibly be possible, because we exist on a certain point of existence of the universe. So the universe had a starting point, and since many scientists are intelligent, Einstein knew how great and complex this universe is.

Please quote Einstein where he says that there is a mastermind behind the Universe, and that he isn't speaking poetically.

3) Where did those particles come from before the expansion (Big Bang)?

We don't know yet. Again, speak to a cosmologist or a physicist.

4) Yes we can, it couldn't have happened by itself.

Please demonstrate that it couldn't have happened by itself, otherwise your assumption is invalid.

And if it did, it created such a perfect and beautiful world.

The concepts of beauty and perfection are entirely subjective, non-inherent qualities in the Universe itself. You have no basis on which to judge objectively that the Universe is either.

Too much points towards God, the Designer, Creator, and Fashioner of all things.

Except nothing does, as no God has ever been demonstrated to exist.

5) You probably don't know anything, but we do.

Then please demonstrate it.

6) What are you talking about, science FULLY supports it.

Then please show it.

How can something just come into being in such a perfect state of harmony and correlation WITHOUT there being any intelligent DESIGNER behind it?

You think the Universe is in a "perfect state of harmony and correlation"? The big bang was over 14 billion years ago. The vast, vast majority of the Universe is empty space.

First of all, are you denying the complexity of this magnificent universe?

No. Where did I say the Universe was't complex?

It seems like only religious folks are in awe of this massive world.

No, they just come up with a childish explanation for it that has no basis in reality. Just because rainbows are beautiful doesn't mean there has to be a leprechaun and a pot of gold sitting at the end of it.

7) Nothing is what nothing is...it is nothing. The reason you can't test it, is because it is not a THING to test. NO THING.

Which is exactly why we cannot make assertions about it such as "something cannot come from nothing", since we don't have any examples of "nothing" to test and observe. Have you looked up the lecture by Lawrence Krauss, yet?

8) Logic completely supports it.

Then how come your logic is so poor?

9) So far, this logic hasn't been bent by your arguments, you are just denying it and putting your own opinions into the mix.

No, I'm not. Go and watch a couple of lectures on the nature of infinity. Go and read up on the big bang. Go ask a few physicists or cosmologists their opinions on the scientific validity of God.

10) So far, yes, everything IS pointing towards God.

Garbage.

What are the odds that messengers are coming down to Earth and bringing people to God, and these messengers somehow have brought miraculous scriptures with them with billions of followers?

Very, very low, I'd say. Obviously.

11) You assume science is like one group of people?

No, there are lots of prevailing views in science. You're assuming that God is "scientifically accepted", yet I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of the world's scientists, in almost any field, do not agree with you on that.

12) I never said Einstein was a Theist.

Yet you clearly implied that Einstein reached the same conclusion you had, which he hadn't. Einstein never believed in a literal God, repeatedly spoke out against claims that he did, and never claimed that God was at all scientifically viable as a concept. Your argument is a lie.

 

[camanintx]

Is this universe finite, or infinite?

The universe is most likely finite but unbounded.

 

[OurCreed]

The universe is most likely finite but unbounded.

That means it had a start.

Who or what started it?

And whatever started it, was the starter finite or infinite?

 

[averageJOE]

That means it had a start.

Who or what started it?

And whatever started it, was the starter finite or infinite?

Apply these questions to your god.

 

[OurCreed]

Apply these questions to your god.

WHY do people keep asking the SAME questions!!!

God is infinite. THAT is the answer. The answer to the creation of the universe is that since this universe is finite, it HAD to have an INFINITE creator, because of it had a finite creator, then EVEN the creator then had to be created.

The only answer to ANYTHING existing all points to the infinite source, and this infinite source encompasses ALL the intelligence, since this universe is so magnificently complex, and even Earth itself is like a computer that was created out of a tornado!

The creator of this universe was the Almighty Eternal God.

He wasn't created, since He created time and space itself.

 

[averageJOE]

WHY do people keep asking the SAME questions!!!

God is infinite. THAT is the answer. The answer to the creation of the universe is that since this universe is finite, it HAD to have an INFINITE creator, because of it had a finite creator, then EVEN the creator then had to be created.

The only answer to ANYTHING existing all points to the infinite source, and this infinite source encompasses ALL the intelligence, since this universe is so magnificently complex, and even Earth itself is like a computer that was created out of a tornado!

The creator of this universe was the Almighty Eternal God.

He wasn't created, since He created time and space itself.

Cliche response. The universe needs a creator because it "is so magnificently complex", yet a god, who should be even more magnificently complex, doesn't.

 

[mycorrhiza]

WHY do people keep asking the SAME questions!!!

God is infinite. THAT is the answer. The answer to the creation of the universe is that since this universe is finite, it HAD to have an INFINITE creator, because of it had a finite creator, then EVEN the creator then had to be created.

The only answer to ANYTHING existing all points to the infinite source, and this infinite source encompasses ALL the intelligence, since this universe is so magnificently complex, and even Earth itself is like a computer that was created out of a tornado!

The creator of this universe was the Almighty Eternal God.

He wasn't created, since He created time and space itself.

How about if our current Universe is finite, but there's a wider eternal reality (like a multiverse) or if the Universe is cyclic? Then there's no need for an eternal creator at all. It's a much simpler scenario since it does not require a creator that is much much more complex than the Universe it created.

 

[camanintx]

That means it had a start.

Who or what started it?

And whatever started it, was the starter finite or infinite?

Nothing started the universe. Unbounded means there was nothing before it to start it. You might as well be asking what's north of the north pole.

 

[OurCreed]

How about if our current Universe is finite, but there's a wider eternal reality (like a multiverse) or if the Universe is cyclic? Then there's no need for an eternal creator at all. It's a much simpler scenario since it does not require a creator that is much much more complex than the Universe it created.

The possibility of that is not compared to the possibility of there being a creator.

So if we go by your ideology, then we have two likely possibilities.

-Eternal multi-verse
-Eternal Creator

The multi-verse isn't even any intelligent being, how can it create something so complex like the Earth?

The Creator is an intelligent being, it makes perfect sense how He has created the Earth in perfect harmony and correlation.

Tell me, what are the odds that Messengers have been coming in this world throughout different times of history POINTING at the reality of point number 2, the Eternal Creator?

WHAT ARE THE ODDS?

And they brought with them their scriptures...ALL pointing towards point 2. Again, what are the odds?

 

[OurCreed]

Nothing started the universe. Unbounded means there was nothing before it to start it. You might as well be asking what's north of the north pole.

That contradicts science.

 

[FearGod]

It is very frustrating reading post after post in thread after thread where people claim to be arguing against the theory of evolution when it is very apparent that they have no idea what the theory of evolution is, and in fact that they have an issue with is atheism.

The theory of evolution has nothing at all to do with whether of not there is a "God", or "Gods". The vast majority of the scientific communities agrees that the theory of evolution is accurate well established scientific theory. It is not just the Atheists. Evolution is no more atheistic than any other scientific theory. So why do people insist on conflating evolution with atheism?

If you want to attack atheism go ahead, have at it. But to try to attack atheism by denying evolution is ridiculous. It is like trying to attack your enemy by banging your own head against a wall. You are not going to harm your enemy and you certainly are not going to harm the wall.

All they are doing is denying themselves a full understanding and appreciation of the world we live in.

For me it is frustrating, but for them it is an absolute tragedy.

What are the factors that playing role in the evolution process other than nature and the living organism ? assuming that there is no supernatural power controling the process.

 

[Musty]

It is very frustrating reading post after post in thread after thread where people claim to be arguing against the theory of evolution when it is very apparent that they have no idea what the theory of evolution is, and in fact that they have an issue with is atheism.

The theory of evolution has nothing at all to do with whether of not there is a "God", or "Gods". The vast majority of the scientific communities agrees that the theory of evolution is accurate well established scientific theory. It is not just the Atheists. Evolution is no more atheistic than any other scientific theory. So why do people insist on conflating evolution with atheism?

If you want to attack atheism go ahead, have at it. But to try to attack atheism by denying evolution is ridiculous. It is like trying to attack your enemy by banging your own head against a wall. You are not going to harm your enemy and you certainly are not going to harm the wall.

All they are doing is denying themselves a full understanding and appreciation of the world we live in.

For me it is frustrating, but for them it is an absolute tragedy.

Many do have a problem with the theory of evolution and whilst they they may have a distorted understanding of evolution the implication that evolution has regarding humans place in the natural order of things runs contrary to their beliefs.

These same people dislike atheism because they are usually the type that believe that you can't have morals etc.. without being religious, or more accurately being a member of their religion.

It's to be expected that the two get lumped together even if strictly speaking the two are mutually exclusive of one another.

 

[mycorrhiza]

The possibility of that is not compared to the possibility of there being a creator.

So if we go by your ideology, then we have two likely possibilities.

-Eternal multi-verse
-Eternal Creator

Or a cyclical Universe. In the scenario you present, we need there to be an eternal being that is much more complex than the thing it created. I'd say that my scenario(s) are simpler and require less.

The multi-verse isn't even any intelligent being, how can it create something so complex like the Earth?

The Earth wasn't created in an instant. We (read: scientists and people who have actually read about it, not me ) know quite well how planets are formed.

The Creator is an intelligent being, it makes perfect sense how He has created the Earth in perfect harmony and correlation.

Species are constantly going extinct and there have been several mass extinctions. I wouldn't call that perfect harmony. Living things have adapted as well as they could to the environment, but it's nowhere close to harmony.

Tell me, what are the odds that Messengers have been coming in this world throughout different times of history POINTING at the reality of point number 2, the Eternal Creator?

WHAT ARE THE ODDS?

Well, only a few religions are monotheistic with a single creator God. I'd say that the odds are rather high, though. The belief in Gods and spirits exist in nearly all cultures, so it's only logical that a few of these would believe in a single creator God.

And they brought with them their scriptures...ALL pointing towards point 2. Again, what are the odds?

The odds are pretty high. Cultures that used written language wrote down their religious beliefs, because they were important to them.

 

[fantome profane]

What are the factors that playing role in the evolution process other than nature and the living organism ? assuming that there is no supernatural power controling the process.

I'm sorry, but this question is completely nonsensical to me. If you could try rephrasing it I would try to respond if I can.

 

[FearGod]

I'm sorry, but this question is completely nonsensical to me. If you could try rephrasing it I would try to respond if I can.

i'll assume that there is no supernatural conscious power that created the universe and all sort of life.

We got the unconscious nature which is a nonliving matter that can't see,can't think..etc and let's assume life started with isogamy form of life.

Now we got 2 factors that got no power to fix anything in the process of evolution which in logic we got 2 zeros (OFF) effect or power.

Unconscious Nature (OFF) + Living organism (OFF) = OFF

So where is the logic in evolution

 

[fantome profane]

i'll assume that there is no supernatural conscious power that created the universe and all sort of life.

We got the unconscious nature which is a nonliving matter that can't see,can't think..etc and let's assume life started with isogamy form of life.

Now we got 2 factors that got no power to fix anything in the process of evolution which in logic we got 2 zeros (OFF) effect or power.

Unconscious Nature (OFF) + Living organism (OFF) = OFF

So where is the logic in evolution

I am still not sure what you are trying to say, but let me say this.

We have found through scientific investigation that natural selection have an impressive ability to "fix things" so to speak. All natural selection does is to select things that work, and reject that which does not work. We have evidence that this is an amazingly effective and creatve solution, and no sentient intelligence is required.

That does not mean that no sentient intelligence exists, or that it could not have been involved. But scientifically we cannot provide evidence for or against a supernatural entity.

 

[FearGod]

I am still not sure what you are trying to say, but let me say this.

We have found through scientific investigation that natural selection have an impressive ability to "fix things" so to speak. All natural selection does is to select things that work, and reject that which does not work. We have evidence that this is an amazingly effective and creatve solution, and no sentient intelligence is required.

That does not mean that no sentient intelligence exists, or that it could not have been involved. But scientifically we cannot provide evidence for or against a supernatural entity.

But our common ancestor was working according to the theory,otherwise how evolution worked.

So our ancestor was working and the natural selection selected it,so what happened next.

i got no problem with adaptation or slight changes but to evovle from simple primitive organism to a complicated one as humans.

its like having a bike and after a million year it evolved to Porsch 2013 without human intervention,sounds crazy.

What makes the primitive organism to possess eyes,ears,nose...etc without accepting supernatural power to be envolved for such perfect design.

The primitive organism got no power to make such amazing things neither the unconscious nature.

 

[fantome profane]

But our common ancestor was working according to the theory,otherwise how evolution worked.

So our ancestor was working and the natural selection selected it,so what happened next.

i got no problem with adaptation or slight changes but to evovle from simple primitive organism to a complicated one as humans.

its like having a bike and after a million year it evolved to Porsch 2013 without human intervention,sounds crazy.

What makes the primitive organism to possess eyes,ears,nose...etc without accepting supernatural power to be envolved for such perfect design.

The primitive organism got no power to make such amazing things neither the unconscious nature.

Before I go to the effort of answering these questions, tell me do you really want any of these questions answered? Are these sincere questions, or rhetorical noise?

 

[FearGod]

Before I go to the effort of answering these questions, tell me do you really want any of these questions answered? Are these sincere questions, or rhetorical noise?

Why not, if your answer will make sense then i am more than happy to agree with you.