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Why can't some people understand that Evolution is not Atheism.

shawn001

Well-Known Member
My last post in this thread was lost in the noise. I wrote an article that I think is relevant to this thread explaining why God is needed for positive human evolution. Evolution and the Old Testament actually support each other.

any god or Gods are needed? Is it also possible we evolved the need for "gods" or God"? I am asking you this question and am not an atheist.


You didn't changed the really wrong information you have in there on animals?

fschmidt, do you know what the cosmic microwave background radiation or (CMB) is by any chance?

Ever heard of it?
 

fschmidt

Old Testament Reactionary
You're wrong, I'm a libertarian misotheist, although I don't see how that has any bearing on the topic.

Close enough. I had to look up "misotheist". Sounds like an honest atheist, so I give you credit for that. I love the Old Testament and hate modern thought. Our views of the world are too far apart for us to be able to have meaningful discussion.
 

secret2

Member
Close enough. I had to look up "misotheist". Sounds like an honest atheist, so I give you credit for that. I love the Old Testament and hate modern thought. Our views of the world are too far apart for us to be able to have meaningful discussion.

It's nothing close at all.

And differences in 'views of the world' has nothing to do with discussion about 'the world' either.
 

fschmidt

Old Testament Reactionary
any god or Gods are needed? Is it also possible we evolved the need for "gods" or God"? I am asking you this question and am not an atheist.
What is the distinction? We need God now to avoid evolving into beasts. The reason for this need comes from evolution (so yes we evolved this need) combined with cultural changes.

You didn't changed the really wrong information you have in there on animals?
Which is that?

fschmidt, do you know what the cosmic microwave background radiation or (CMB) is by any chance?

Ever heard of it?
No, never heard of it.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
You didn't answer about the change in there that is wrong you have on animals?

any god or Gods are needed? Is it also possible we evolved the need for "gods" or God"? I am asking you this question and am not an atheist.


What is the distinction? We need God now to avoid evolving into beasts. The reason for this need comes from evolution (so yes we evolved this need) combined with cultural changes.

Have we been evolving into beasts in the last 6 million years?

A ton of people have been killed over religion.

Man is kind enough when he is not excited by religion.
Mark Twain


Which is that?

This one

"Humans are truly unique among animals because when we form communities, we can agree on a set of rules. This ability to agree on rules to define a society is what separates people from animals."

Is totally wrong.


No, never heard of it.

CMB

First Year Results on the Oldest Light in the Universe

WMAP 1 Year Mission Results Press Release


Universe Today and CMB

Cosmic Background Radiation

I post this just for your information, its slightly off topic.


However, this

"Now let's look at the evolution of marriage and monogamy. The common evolutionary explanation is that there is a benefit to having both parents cooperate to raise children, the benefit being that the child's chances of survival are better if supported by two parents instead of just one. And for many species, particularly birds, this explanation seems complete. But for humans there is another clear benefit that is never mentioned because it is too politically incorrect."

Isn't quite right either.

The history of marriage wasn't about love or the "benefit to having both parents cooperate to raise children"

Evolution has "benefit to having both parents cooperate to raise children", but that has nothing to do with marriage.

Nor are humans or birds monogamists.
 

fschmidt

Old Testament Reactionary
The history of marriage wasn't about love or the "benefit to having both parents cooperate to raise children"

Evolution has "benefit to having both parents cooperate to raise children", but that has nothing to do with marriage.
It has everything to do with marriage. By marriage, I don't mean that ridiculous license issued by our corrupt liberal government. By marriage, I mean a commitment by a couple to stay together. Without this commitment, it is very unlikely that the father will stick around to raise the kids.

Nor are humans or birds monogamists.
Males of many species mate-guard with varying degrees of success. There is never perfection of any kind in the real world including perfect monogamy, but the more (reproductively) monogamous people are, the better for evolution.
 

beerisit

Active Member
It has everything to do with marriage. By marriage, I don't mean that ridiculous license issued by our corrupt liberal government. By marriage, I mean a commitment by a couple to stay together. Without this commitment, it is very unlikely that the father will stick around to raise the kids.


Males of many species mate-guard with varying degrees of success. There is never perfection of any kind in the real world including perfect monogamy, but the more (reproductively) monogamous people are, the better for evolution.
Would you prefer a licence issued by a corrupt conservative government?
 

fschmidt

Old Testament Reactionary
Would you prefer a licence issued by a corrupt conservative government?
No, I would prefer that the government get out of the marriage business and let couples sign private marriage contracts enforced under standard contract law. These contracts could come from their church, from Nolo Press, or wherever they want.
 

beerisit

Active Member
No, I would prefer that the government get out of the marriage business and let couples sign private marriage contracts enforced under standard contract law. These contracts could come from their church, from Nolo Press, or wherever they want.
Enforced under standard contract law and government get out of it. Two mutually exclusive concepts.
Edit: I've gotta say tho that karate is a kick **** religion.
 
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fschmidt

Old Testament Reactionary
Texas has a liberal government? Since when?
It's all relative, isn't it? As a reactionary, I see "conservatives" as liberals. I like the Old Testament and respect Anabaptists, Orthodox Jews, and Muslims. I don't have much use for the mainstream.
 

Viker

Your beloved eccentric Auntie Cristal
Enforced under standard contract law and government get out of it. Two mutually exclusive concepts.
Edit: I've gotta say tho that karate is a kick **** religion.

It's Karaite, sort of sounds like car 'aight ( I think ). He's a "rogue" Jew which is as awesome as Karate as a religion.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
It has everything to do with marriage. By marriage, I don't mean that ridiculous license issued by our corrupt liberal government. By marriage, I mean a commitment by a couple to stay together. Without this commitment, it is very unlikely that the father will stick around to raise the kids.


Males of many species mate-guard with varying degrees of success. There is never perfection of any kind in the real world including perfect monogamy, but the more (reproductively) monogamous people are, the better for evolution.

"By marriage, I don't mean that ridiculous license issued by our corrupt liberal government."

That not what you wrote in your article.

"corrupt liberal government."

The US has the greatest goverment on earth. Or were our founding fathers wrong? If you don't like this country why do you live here?

You should actually research the history of marriage, it was orginally about land and power and money. Not love or rasing children.

A "commitment" is not "marriage."


"Males of many species mate-guard with varying degrees of success. There is never perfection of any kind in the real world including perfect monogamy, but the more (reproductively) monogamous people are, the better for evolution"

This is basically wrong too.

There are only two animals on earth that are Totally monogamous. Its almost impossible to completely monogamous animals.

There are some benefits for some animals in choosing to be monogamous.

Live Science
Monogamous Animals May Be More Likely To Die Out

" New research reveals a surprising risk factor for extinction: monogamy. Large mammals that live in pairs or have small harems are far more likely to die out than those with big harems in reserves in Ghana. "In avoiding extinction, it pays to be promiscuous," says Justin Brashares of the University of British Columbia in Vancouver, who presents this work in the June issue of Conservation Biology. "This study is the first to show a strong link between social behavior and risk of extinction in mammals."

Monogamous Animals May Be More Likely To Die Out


Is extinction good for evolution?
 

fschmidt

Old Testament Reactionary
"By marriage, I don't mean that ridiculous license issued by our corrupt liberal government."

That not what you wrote in your article.
What did I write in my article?

"corrupt liberal government."

The US has the greatest goverment on earth. Or were our founding fathers wrong? If you don't like this country why do you live here?
I don't care much about government, I care about culture. I hate American culture but I live in El Paso where the culture is Mexican. There is no really good culture in the modern world, but American culture is among the worst that I have seen.

You should actually research the history of marriage, it was orginally about land and power and money. Not love or rasing children.

A "commitment" is not "marriage."
I can guess the source of this lie, that book by Coontz. The way this works is that Liberals write books of lies that other Liberals reference to support their position. The way around the Liberal matrix of lies is to go to original sources as I did.

"Males of many species mate-guard with varying degrees of success. There is never perfection of any kind in the real world including perfect monogamy, but the more (reproductively) monogamous people are, the better for evolution"

This is basically wrong too.

There are only two animals on earth that are Totally monogamous. Its almost impossible to completely monogamous animals.
You are calling me wrong and then agreeing with what I said. That sounds like Liberal thinking.

There are some benefits for some animals in choosing to be monogamous.

Live Science
Monogamous Animals May Be More Likely To Die Out

" New research reveals a surprising risk factor for extinction: monogamy. Large mammals that live in pairs or have small harems are far more likely to die out than those with big harems in reserves in Ghana. "In avoiding extinction, it pays to be promiscuous," says Justin Brashares of the University of British Columbia in Vancouver, who presents this work in the June issue of Conservation Biology. "This study is the first to show a strong link between social behavior and risk of extinction in mammals."

Monogamous Animals May Be More Likely To Die Out

Is extinction good for evolution?
Of course you left out the explanation which is in the article itself.

I didn't come here to debate Liberals whom I despise and want nothing to do with. I came here to share my thoughts with decent religious people.
 
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ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
What is it with the repeated use of the word "liberals" in some people's vernacular? I'm not even sure when such people use the word "liberal" they entirely understand what it means, other than "people who I personally dislike due to arbitrarily designating them as 'liberal' on a count of them having different views to me". It's a very lazy, intellectually vapid shorthand for "I can dismiss everything you say and all facts you say because you're part of the 'liberal agenda'". What the hell is wrong with people that they have to be so freaking partisan?
 

fschmidt

Old Testament Reactionary
What is it with the repeated use of the word "liberals" in some people's vernacular? I'm not even sure when such people use the word "liberal" they entirely understand what it means, other than "people who I personally dislike due to arbitrarily designating them as 'liberal' on a count of them having different views to me". It's a very lazy, intellectually vapid shorthand for "I can dismiss everything you say and all facts you say because you're part of the 'liberal agenda'". What the hell is wrong with people that they have to be so freaking partisan?

I have written a long article on exactly what I think liberalism is. Feel free to read it for details. As for being "freaking partisan", a common element of most religions is good versus evil which is fundamentally partisan.
 
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tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
What does all this have to do with why many adherents of Creationism and ID associate biological evolution with the philosophy of atheism?
 

RubyEyes

Truth Seeker
Fschmidt, if you don't want to argue "liberals" then why do you come to a part of the forum, a thread, which is open to anyone? If you don't debate people who oppose your views, then you will not debate at all. You will just get someone who thinks like you to nod at all what you say. Also, consider if "despising people" is an adequate attitude in a debate site. Debate is based upon understanding that there are other positions, and it implies tolerance before anything else.

Of course you left out the explanation which is in the article itself.

I didn't come here to debate Liberals whom I despise and want nothing to do with. I came here to share my thoughts with decent religious people. I hope that some religious people will have a chance to read my article on human evolution.
I have read your article, and let me say several things:

1) The Genesis problem. The Bible is not a science book, and the line you follow that "it's more accurate than other myths" is simply not an excuse. We cannot cover the fact that Genesis' creation myth is just a myth. It's an account of facts, the way humans narrated it; it could either be right or wrong, and it's wrong in many aspects. You can interpret and re-interpret, some parts will never match reality. It doesn't mean God doesn't exist though, just that the creation doesn't happen as depicted in Genesis. I'm a Christian like you and I have no problem accepting this. I do believe in God and in a creation, but not in the Genesis book.

2) The case you offer about peacock tails' evolution and present as "evolution gone wild" or "evil" is plain nonsense, for the lack of a better word, and it spreads your misunderstanding all over the rest of the examples, which I'll talk about later. It is called sexual selection and was already described by Darwin. It's an inherent part in evolution, which you explained yourself previously. You should be able to understand perfectly that these genetic traits are not morally oriented, they simply happen in nature. If sexual selection occurs, it's because it also makes animals more apt, in reproduction, as you said. It's an inherent part of nature and if God created nature that way then that's what God wants to happen. Peacock females don't choose to find certain traits more sexually appealing.

3) Evolution of monogamy and marriage. Evolution of marriage? Evolution works over long spans of time and this is a basic notion. Marriage is a cultural development, we humans made it (God's view on it is another topic, but it was us who instutionalized it). Culture hasn't been going on long enough to have such profound evolutionary impact as monogamy vs. polygamy. Let me tell you what the evolution of monogamy and polygamy look like in real nature. It's reflected in sexual dimorphism. Direct ancestors of human beings presented slight sexual dimorphism (men and women were biologically different), which implies a slight polygamy (concretely polygyny).

Walruses are natural polygamists, and they do fine like they are. It's their nature, and they are a part of creation just like we humans or, say, wolves. Some bird species are strictly monogamous.

Human sexuality has evolved to be quite varied, and in every different scenario, different behaviors evolve and do well. As I said, strictly speaking, human ancestors were slightly polygamist, and modern-day humans seem to bounce between monogamy and slight polygamy (again, talking about behaviors, not cultural constructs). Biology is not evil nor good, it is just a description about what we happen to have been created like.

4) Polygamy and monogamy affecting a warrior's enthusiasm. This is where I was going that the nonsense spread into examples. Are you aware that, say, 1.000 years of tribal wars is not enough for a species to move from monogamous to polygamous? It is cultural, not biological, behaviors which change. All the individuals, in the promiscuous and the "faithful" tribes, are about the same genetically. Biology is not playing a role in this kind of selection. You have a double confusion here:

-On the one hand, a "faithful" tribe doesn't imply everyone has a sexual mate. Alpha wolves are monogamous and yet the rest of the wolves don't get to reproduce. Why? Because evolution has shaped the species to behave that way, with different behaviors in different social roles they happen to be in or not be in.

-Human polygyny is, again, cultural. It's not like walrus polygamy, where the male walrus is completely biologically desgined to create a harem and fight against other males to keep his "wives" by his side. As it is cultural, discussing its biological inheritance is moot. Sexuality and culture are not inherited, but transmitted through imitation (sexuality has a biological factor but it's not determinant). Thus the son of a promiscuous person is not necessarily promiscuous, unless he is taught to be so.

When somebody rejects a sexual partner because of his behavior, attitude or culture, that is not plain natural selection. That is sexual selection, concretely opperating through culture. Yes, the one you called "evil". Almost all (or, all) our modern sexual choices, according to you, are being made nowadays due to an "evil" basis. And intra-religious marriage would be evil, according to you, because it encourages you to choose because of culture and not natural traits. The problem here is your confusion that evolution is somehow moral and the confusion that culture is biologically inheritable. It's separate.

5) Also, on a separate note, you're also wrong that what makes humans different from animals is society. To put it bluntly, bees also have societies. What makes us different is our intelligence.

So you cannot use this argument to defend monogamy. Monogamy does well if the species is monogamous, and polygamy does well if the species is polygamous. Human sexuality can, however, account for both. An example that polygamists are shuned upon by monogamists is moot, and that is basically what you offered.
 

fschmidt

Old Testament Reactionary
Hi RubyEyes, thank you for the first considered response. I am not a Christian. I follow the Old Testament and the Old Testament God did his fair bit of "despising", so I don't see anything wrong with that. I came here to find people who I can relate to and share ideas with, not to debate.

I agree with you about Genesis. The point I was trying to make is that for those who take Genesis seriously, it doesn't conflict with evolution as much as they think it does.

About peacock tails; It is a common issue to ask of God is all powerful then why is there evil? I am not saying that evolution is morally oriented, what I am saying is that evolution can cause results that are not in the best interest of the species, and that according to normal human morality, that seems perverse or "immoral". If one thinks of evolution as a process placed here by God, one can see how evil can happen in the short run, and how evil is also automatically punished (since if evolution takes the sexy son too far, the species will become extinct).

On monogamy and marriage; The main point is actually marriage, not as much monogamy. If there is an excess of women, then slight polygamy makes sense. And this is how it used to be. What really matters is that every man get at least one women who is committed to him. As for evolution taking a long time, this is just wrong. I can provide with evidence if you like. This topic was discussed in a book I just read "The Righteous Mind".

Yes some animals are polygamous and some are promiscuous. That's fine for them.

Again about good and evil, I am assuming that you agree that a wealthy civil culture is better than a bunch on uncivil barbarians. If you do agree, I am letting you know that monogamy is required for the former.

Moving on, you are again repeating the mistake that evolution takes a long time. If you really want me to, I can dig up all the evidence to the contrary.

I never said that sexual selection is evil, only that it can be evil when women select mates based on the "sexy son" motive which happens under certain circumstances, particularly under feminism.

Intra-religious marriage isn't evil because it doesn't select negative traits for survival the say "sexy son" selection does.

I never said that society is what distinguishes us from animals, I said the ability to agree to a set of rules makes us different.

I don't think I mentioned polygamy at all in my article. I talked about monogamy versus promiscuity. Promiscuity is evil in the sense that it leads to moral genetic decay. Polygamy makes sense when there is surplus of women, which is certainly not the case today.
 
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