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why can't we have a relationship with other men?

Me Myself

Back to my username
We need less human race, not more.

To be extremely honest, making more people is worst for society that taking the risk to maybe die while you definetely do not make more persons.


Saying heterosexuality is good because it makes overpopulation even worst is an incredibly idiotic defense.

Saying everyone might turn gay if we dont condem homosexuality on the other hand... Is just very stupid and without any kind of evidence.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
8. M. Saghir and E. Robins, Male and Female Homosexuality (Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1973): 225; L. A. Peplau and H. Amaro, "Understanding Lesbian Relationships," in Homosexuality:Social, Psychological, and Biological Issues, ed. J. Weinrich and W. Paul (Beverly Hills: Sage, 1982).

Or this source?

Lemme guess - you just cut and pasted these from some website without bothering to check them, didn't you? That's why there are no links to any of these sources and why the one that DOES have a link is a dead website.

Ok after you list them all, you finally agree so I will go back and supply them.

I've already listed the claims I believe you are wrong about. What's the matter - don't you read my posts?

Even the far less than 1% of statistics I supplied above of the amount I could will not fit on one post so I am continuing it below.

Actually, you haven't provided a source for anything yet. None of your sources above had links except for a dead end.

How am I obligated to repost a threads worth of stats for every new poster unwilling to spend 15 minutes looking for them? Wriggle out of what? The last post was the first agreement to my request I saw.

I'm not doing your homework for you. You want me to see the sources, you present them.

Where in the heck did you get that from? Not passing a sentence or forcing a solution I am unqualified to enact is in no one imagination being happy with something. That is another grotesque attempt to reposition a claim into something about which an irrational comment concerning moral high ground can be coughed up.

From the bit where you said that you don't like it but didn't believe it was up to you to find a solution to it.

I know what Genes are and I know what the fallacy is. I have no idea what connection they have.

Then why did you say, "This is a genetic fallacy"?

That has nothing to do with my statement. We are not discussing reliable ways to comprehend reality. Though if you want to we can.

I think you should learn how to.

Until there are universal ways to end them homosexuality does not even have a theoretical defense, and even if that hypothetical "miracle" occurred it would only effect the evidence it is wrong not the moral quality of the act. Even something no one ever realizes was stolen is still theft.

Oh, you demand perfection from this, yet you would be happy to continue with other things that carry far more risk. Hypocrisy.

NO I am not. The overwhelming almost universal negativity of all data does not allow justification of homosexuality, even your sides constant CHERRY PICKING less risky sub-groups incessantly is of no help. This was extremely hypocritical.

Your comprehension skills seem to be very poor. I said it is promiscuity that leads to the spread of disease, not homosexuality.

Then why can't you or anyone else here overcome even an argument that isn't. If you can't whip no-one you sure can't whip anyone.

We have. You just keep pulling the same tired arguments out

Apparently rhetoric is all that is left.

Well, if you;d come up with some VALID arguments instead of the same old double standards and cherry picking and alarmist claims, we could respond to that.

Well you said "oh yeah, prove it" (which I have and did) a bunch of times. However no arguments existed beyond that at all.

Actually, you misinterpret what the sources say. I and others have tried to show you but you refuse to listen because you don't want to change your mind (or so it seems). And I still don't see how you have six arguments.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
It's My Birthday!
We need less human race, not more.

To be extremely honest, making more people is worst for society that taking the risk to maybe die while you definetely do not make more persons.


Saying heterosexuality is good because it makes overpopulation even worst is an incredibly idiotic defense.

Saying everyone might turn gay if we dont condem homosexuality on the other hand... Is just very stupid and without any kind of evidence.

What's sad is that the only reason he could come up with for why heterosexuality is better than homosexuality is reproduction. Geez. Whatever happened to loving another human being. What a depressing viewpoint.
 

McBell

Admiral Obvious
1. Homosexuality causes massive increases in human suffering, death, and costs. See any of the dozens of posts containing CDC data that makes this incontestable in the extreme.
One wonders why you are not comparing the massive increase in human suffering, death, and costs from homosexuals to the massive increase in human suffering, death, and costs caused by heterosexuals.

Is it because you know that that the massive increase in human suffering, death, and costs by heterosexuals is greater and thus shows you are looking the ban the wrong sexuality or is it because you are a heterosexual?

Completely ignoring that which shows you are full of **** does not make you any less full of ****.

2. It contains no justifications that compensate for the cost.
And yet you have no problem with heterosexuals having a more massive increase in human suffering, death, and costs?

Your hypocrisy knows no bounds.

This is not your fault but I have grown weary of the ineffective rationalizations that are used in place of arguments. All 3 of them, so I will only respond with redundancy unless a new argument no matter how bad is offered. Good luck.
:biglaugh:
Respond with redundancy?
Seems to me that has been your tactic from get go.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
What's sad is that the only reason he could come up with for why heterosexuality is better than homosexuality is reproduction. Geez. Whatever happened to loving another human being. What a depressing viewpoint.

Meh, its besides the point, we are talking about sexual practice.

If the practice was wrong, love would have nothing to do with supporting it. He believes its wrong.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Or this source?

Lemme guess - you just cut and pasted these from some website without bothering to check them, didn't you? That's why there are no links to any of these sources and why the one that DOES have a link is a dead website.
Of course I copied and pasted the source, exactly what did you think I or anyone else would do? Almost all source material is given in textual form with no link. I would guess 95% plus are. That is how it has been done for over a thousand years. If you give me the data that had a dead link I will provide another source for it if I can't verify it. The list of sources is inexhaustible for this data. You can easily find it your self on the net or even in this thread. I am starting to suspect you are using a delaying tactic here. This stuff is not a mystery.



I've already listed the claims I believe you are wrong about. What's the matter - don't you read my posts?
Yes but you apparently can't comprehend mine. You kept listing information you thought I was making up or something as silly without agreeing to my conditions for providing it. At the very end of that list you finally did agree and so I indicated I had then to go back and supply the data because the condition was agreed to at the end of the list. Which I did and surprise surprise weird contentions about whether I copied and pasted were brought up but he agreement not adhered to.


Actually, you haven't provided a source for anything yet. None of your sources above had links except for a dead end.
Sources almost always are footnoted at the bottom of research. This is not utube or Wikipedia this is scholarship. The source names and works WERE provided. Just going by what you said only one source was untraceable and I will bet I can do it anyway. I provided sources as promised even if they took a few seconds to access. What do you think? Did I invent authors and books to justify made up data? I am far too lazy for that, and have no need.


I'm not doing your homework for you. You want me to see the sources, you present them.
I did and you did not do your homework.


From the bit where you said that you don't like it but didn't believe it was up to you to find a solution to it.
That is exactly correct. I can hate and condemn murder whether I can solve it or not. Moral quality and solutions are two independent issues and you know this which makes that claim sensationalistic grandstanding not serious contention. .


Then why did you say, "This is a genetic fallacy"?
Because actual genes have nothing to do with a genetic fallacy.


I think you should learn how to.
On that basis if any topic is discussed and found inconvenient for the one erroneously defending it then all topics must be. That is like saying English lit must be explained in a physics forum.


Oh, you demand perfection from this, yet you would be happy to continue with other things that carry far more risk. Hypocrisy.
I demanded perfection from nothing. It would be futile discussing anything with your side. If you do not stop mangling what I did say into a unrecognizable form that even then can't be contended I can't justify discussing this. If you want to argue with what you invent, I am unnecessary for that.


Your comprehension skills seem to be very poor. I said it is promiscuity that leads to the spread of disease, not homosexuality.
I had dealt with that in the 20 times I had posted my two sentence primary claim and I can't get a single one of you defenders of death to deal with more than 50% of a two sentence argument. Heterosexuality has justification, homosexuality does not even if both have risks. I never claimed promiscuity was right for either sexuality. The CDC does not tie a disease to a group unless that disease is spread by the specific habits of that group. Tell them they are wrong. It is they who did not even use the word promiscuity in the article I provided that linked Homosexuality (not promiscuity) with aids. So your claim here is not true, would be irrelevant even if true, and contradicts the greatest experts on disease in human history and an army of statisticians.


We have. You just keep pulling the same tired arguments out
NO YOU HAVE NOT and no one else has either. My two primary claims are not effected by pointing at something worse, condemning something else, picking subgroups that have less risk, disagreeing with CDC data, claims that aids in Africa acts contradictory to aids in the US, or even complaints about what for sources are given in.


Well, if you;d come up with some VALID arguments instead of the same old double standards and cherry picking and alarmist claims, we could respond to that.
When my very first two arguments are even dented or have near misses I will require others until then they are standing as tall and unassailable as ever.


Actually, you misinterpret what the sources say. I and others have tried to show you but you refuse to listen because you don't want to change your mind (or so it seems). And I still don't see how you have six arguments.
I did not say I have six arguments, I said in several thousand posts your side at best has six ineffective arguments. I have two that have not even been directly challenged. Assertions devoid of evidence are certainly never going to cut it. Utilize the sources (and give me the link that did not work), make arguments that apply to both my primary claims at once, make arguments that apply to either, provide evidence with assertions, or punt because I am bored to tears.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
What's sad is that the only reason he could come up with for why heterosexuality is better than homosexuality is reproduction. Geez. Whatever happened to loving another human being. What a depressing viewpoint.
I made no claim about love. Love whoever you want. Just do so in a way that does not kill others, does not spread suffering like the plague, and do not ask me to pay for the misuse of organs that are intended for one purpose for another. Not that Love is an excuse as addicts love drugs, men love power, and mankind loves violence. Almost all immorality lies in the missuses of what has a legitimate use. Quit inventing arguments I never made unless you want to debate yourself and you would still loose.

I never denied love.
I never said homosexuality is worse than heterosexuality, I said it was immoral, and the defense of death for the sake of lust is moral insanity.
Not to mention that selfish love that risks the death of others without justification is not love to begin with.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Meh, its besides the point, we are talking about sexual practice.

If the practice was wrong, love would have nothing to do with supporting it. He believes its wrong.
This is nuts. Are you actually saying that if love exists it must be justified? I love things, can I have yours? This is moral insanity, and the worst defense of anything possible.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
That is a genetic fallacy. No matter how I arrived at a truth or when evidence came into play it would still be true. However just out of curiosity what evidence do you have to counter that lust of the 4% produce 60% of the aids that would render those numbers void. Love to see that.

.
It's been shown to you. I explained to you that there's a whole world out there, beyond the US and that the numbers are much different when viewed wholly, rather than just focusing on one particular region of the world.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I am starting to get the picture than in the defense of homosexuality anything, and I mean ANYTHING will be claimed. Not only stuff that is not true, or simply wrong, even stuff that can't possibly be true is used. How do you any of what you claimed?

1. Love can be very very sinful. Ask anyone with a teenage daughter. We love violence, drugs, alcohol, and sex in all situations. Some even love suffering, causing harm, theft, and trouble. Every dug treatment facility will you that a person who gives up even what is killing them will mourn its loss. There is little in human history as destructive as inappropriately loving something or someone.

2. The soul has no ability to render gender meaningless. I do not even know where you contrived that from. I am not any less or more male with a soul than without one.

3. Gender is biological not soulish. We are what we are because of chromosomes. That is not even consistent. If souls mean we have no gender then how in the world do you suggest souls make us male even if we are biologically female.

4. Love is most sinful, as all things are that have a genuine purpose or role. Immorality usually involves the misuse of something that if use correctly is no t immoral. There is little in history that has led more people to suffer than loving the wrong things.

Where did you get any of this?
I have worked in drug treatment facilities and can tell you that we don't say that nor do we see it. Most people are happy to have kicked their addiction and say goodbye to that part of their life and move on to better things.

Love is one of the things that makes life worth living, if you ask me.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
It's My Birthday!
I made no claim about love. Love whoever you want. Just do so in a way that does not kill others, does not spread suffering like the plague, and do not ask me to pay for the misuse of organs that are intended for one purpose for another. Not that Love is an excuse as addicts love drugs, men love power, and mankind loves violence. Almost all immorality lies in the missuses of what has a legitimate use. Quit inventing arguments I never made unless you want to debate yourself and you would still loose.

I never denied love.
I never said homosexuality is worse than heterosexuality, I said it was immoral, and the defense of death for the sake of lust is moral insanity.
Not to mention that selfish love that risks the death of others without justification is not love to begin with.

:rolleyes:

You're still ignoring that there's safe ways to have anal sex, that not all gay or bisexual men have anal sex and there's probably more heterosexuals who have anal sex than gay men that do. You're better off making an argument for using condoms than to twist the HIV/AIDS issue for homophobic purposes.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
And once again I will make you the same offer I make to every new poster after posting the data several times over. I will post it and sources yet again if you make it worth my while by promising to apologize and concede the point when I do. If you had the slightest confidence in what you claimed you should have no fear in promising to do so. That or you could do the most minimal of reviews.

I have not seen an agreement top you side of the bargain yet.

Homosexuals live unhealthy lifestyles, and have historically accounted for the bulk of syphilis, gonorrhea, Hepatitis B, the "gay bowel syndrome" (which attacks the intestinal tract), tuberculosis and cytomegalovirus (27).
Depending on the city, 39-59% of homosexuals are infected with intestinal parasites like worms, flukes and amoebae, which is common in filthy third world countries (8).
(27) United States Congressional Record, June 29, 1989.
(8) Fields, Dr. E. "Is Homosexual Activity Normal?" Marietta, GA.
Now is the bulk acceptable suffering and cost for what has no justifying gain even possible?

See the above and here are a few more.
1. The median age of death of homosexuals is 42 (only 9% live past age 65). This drops to 39 if the cause of death is AIDS. The median age of death of a married heterosexual man is 75 (8).

2. The median age of death of lesbians is 45 (only 24% live past age 65). The median age of death of a married heterosexual woman is 79 (8).
  • Homosexuals are 100 times more likely to be murdered (usually by another homosexual) than the average person, 25 times more likely to commit suicide, and 19 times more likely to die in a traffic accident (8).
8) Fields, Dr. E. "Is Homosexual Activity Normal?" Marietta, GA.




Are you seriously providing this as factual evidence for your claim? And you wonder why people don’t take your claims seriously when you cite garbage like this?

Dr. E. Fields is a non-practicing CHIROPRACTOR and a white supremacist. Some of his other works include such titles as, “Was There Really a Holocaust?,” and “Jews Behind Race Mixing.” If you’re happy relying on nothing more than the word of such a person, then that’s your choice. But if you want anyone else to take your argument seriously, I would suggest you don’t reference racist, non-practicing chiropractors as any sort of scientific authority on the subject at hand. Notwithstanding the fact that you provided an incomplete citation, in this “work” of his that you referenced, he refers to gay people as “homos,” and he asserts that every single one of them practice oral sex which he says is the equivalent of ingesting raw human blood. He also says that homosexuals prey on young boys and try to recruit youths to become gay, that they are a threat to not only families but the US itself, and that one of their favorite career choices is the food industry where they spread hepatitis to the rest of the population, among a whole bunch of other nonsense I didn’t feel like sifting through. There is nothing scientific about the pamphlet of his that you have referenced. It’s nothing more than hate-mongering in disguise (and not a very good one).

As to the claims you cited above, they are based on a single, flawed and discredited study.

Here is a critique of the “study” done by Dr. Herek, who is has a Ph.D. in social psychology and someone who has actually published in scientific journals (on relevant subject matter).
http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_cameron_obit.html

I don’t know why you’re citing the U.S. Congressional Record as a scientific authority, but nonetheless, I can’t find a record of what you’ve copied & pasted above anywhere.


I’ll address the rest of them a bit later when I have more time to look them up.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I have worked in drug treatment facilities and can tell you that we don't say that nor do we see it. Most people are happy to have kicked their addiction and say goodbye to that part of their life and move on to better things.
I have no idea what you or the one or two facilities you have worked in say. I have personal experience with addiction and therapy for 20 years and know very well what I am talking about. I support 12 step folks from time to time and have one currently sleeping ion my couch. You will literally mourn a substance. You ever heard of the love of money being the root of evil? If you went back 3000 years and asked a 6 year why he was doing X. The most common arguments would be a form of either "but I love it", but I like it", or the tried and true and pathetic "but it is fun". You would think that in 3000 years and adulthood the arguments for homosexuality would have progressed from childhood arguments for candy or a friend bike. I really wanted to get into to addiction, obsession and love but I am pressed for time.

Love is one of the things that makes life worth living, if you ask me.
That and bacon. However the misuse of a thing is never justification for doing so or an argument against the right use of it. There is nothing more beautiful as love in it's intended purpose and nothing more grotesque or destructive as it's misapplication.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
:rolleyes:

You're still ignoring that there's safe ways to have anal sex, that not all gay or bisexual men have anal sex and there's probably more heterosexuals who have anal sex than gay men that do. You're better off making an argument for using condoms than to twist the HIV/AIDS issue for homophobic purposes.
I have dealt with that irrelevancy in at least 20 posts. Redundant.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
[/font]


Are you seriously providing this as factual evidence for your claim? And you wonder why people don’t take your claims seriously when you cite garbage like this?

Dr. E. Fields is a non-practicing CHIROPRACTOR and a white supremacist. Some of his other works include such titles as, “Was There Really a Holocaust?,” and “Jews Behind Race Mixing.” If you’re happy relying on nothing more than the word of such a person, then that’s your choice. But if you want anyone else to take your argument seriously, I would suggest you don’t reference racist, non-practicing chiropractors as any sort of scientific authority on the subject at hand. Notwithstanding the fact that you provided an incomplete citation, in this “work” of his that you referenced, he refers to gay people as “homos,” and he asserts that every single one of them practice oral sex which he says is the equivalent of ingesting raw human blood. He also says that homosexuals prey on young boys and try to recruit youths to become gay, that they are a threat to not only families but the US itself, and that one of their favorite career choices is the food industry where they spread hepatitis to the rest of the population, among a whole bunch of other nonsense I didn’t feel like sifting through. There is nothing scientific about the pamphlet of his that you have referenced. It’s nothing more than hate-mongering in disguise (and not a very good one).

As to the claims you cited above, they are based on a single, flawed and discredited study.

Here is a critique of the “study” done by Dr. Herek, who is has a Ph.D. in social psychology and someone who has actually published in scientific journals (on relevant subject matter).
http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_cameron_obit.html

I don’t know why you’re citing the U.S. Congressional Record as a scientific authority, but nonetheless, I can’t find a record of what you’ve copied & pasted above anywhere.


I’ll address the rest of them a bit later when I have more time to look them up.
I am pressed for time so I will agree with you to save it, but add additional research.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr036.pdf
You do not cause 60% of aids cases and have an equal life span even if the other several dozen health problems were non-existent any more that Obama spending money as fast as China can print it has any other outcome than bankruptcy. The math does not work.

Life Span
References
[1]R. S. Hogg, S. A. Strathdee, et al., “Modeling the Impact of HIV Disease on Mortality in Gay and Bisexual Men,” International Journal of Epidemiology, 26(3): 657-661, p. 659 (1997). Death as the result of HIV infection has dropped significantly since 1996. CDC News Release, October 10, 2001[2]Press Release, Smoking costs nation $150 billion each year in health costs, lost productivity, CDC, Office of Communication, April 12, 2002, www.cdc.gov/od/oc/media/ pressrel/r020412.htm.



http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive//ldn/2005/jun/05060606
One such study was conducted in Vancouver British Columbia and published in 1997 in the International Journal of Epidemiology (Vol. 26, 657-61: Modelling the impact of HIV disease on mortality in gay and bisexual men.). It almost exactly mirrors the findings of Cameron’s research.
New Study Shows Homosexuals Live 20 Fewer Years

Get rid of the CDC and Oxford and I will find others.
 
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AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
Are you seriously providing this as factual evidence for your claim? And you wonder why people don’t take your claims seriously when you cite garbage like this?

Dr. E. Fields is a non-practicing CHIROPRACTOR and a white supremacist. Some of his other works include such titles as, “Was There Really a Holocaust?,” and “Jews Behind Race Mixing.”
Wow. Seriously? 1robin referenced a white supremacist to prove his position on homosexuality?

And I would guess that the good Dr. Fields is a Christian?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I have no idea what you or the one or two facilities you have worked in say. I have personal experience with addiction and therapy for 20 years and know very well what I am talking about. I support 12 step folks from time to time and have one currently sleeping ion my couch. You will literally mourn a substance. You ever heard of the love of money being the root of evil? If you went back 3000 years and asked a 6 year why he was doing X. The most common arguments would be a form of either "but I love it", but I like it", or the tried and true and pathetic "but it is fun". You would think that in 3000 years and adulthood the arguments for homosexuality would have progressed from childhood arguments for candy or a friend bike. I really wanted to get into to addiction, obsession and love but I am pressed for time.

LOL Nice try in attempting to downplay the work I've done and pump up yours. This is what I do for a living, and I've lived with addicts my entire life.

As usual, my experience is completely different. What you're saying doesn't ring true in the places I've worked. Also, my dad was a substance abuser for my entire life - all he wanted to do was kick the habit and on the occasion where he did, he certainly didn't mourn the loss of his addiction or the torture and agony that came with the lifestyle.

You would think that the arguments surrounding homosexuality would have progressed from childhood arguments, but here you are still making them, and throwing some old myths into the mix as well.

That and bacon. However the misuse of a thing is never justification for doing so or an argument against the right use of it. There is nothing more beautiful as love in it's intended purpose and nothing more grotesque or destructive as it's misapplication.
And who defines "misuse of a thing?" You? Not in my book you don't.

What's wrong with love between two consenting adults?
 
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