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why can't we have a relationship with other men?

ladybug77

Active Member
I am starting to get the picture than in the defense of homosexuality anything, and I mean ANYTHING will be claimed. Not only stuff that is not true, or simply wrong, even stuff that can't possibly be true is used. How do you any of what you claimed?

1. Love can be very very sinful. Ask anyone with a teenage daughter. We love violence, drugs, alcohol, and sex in all situations. Some even love suffering, causing harm, theft, and trouble. Every dug treatment facility will you that a person who gives up even what is killing them will mourn its loss. There is little in human history as destructive as inappropriately loving something or someone.

2. The soul has no ability to render gender meaningless. I do not even know where you contrived that from. I am not any less or more male with a soul than without one.

3. Gender is biological not soulish. We are what we are because of chromosomes. That is not even consistent. If souls mean we have no gender then how in the world do you suggest souls make us male even if we are biologically female.

4. Love is most sinful, as all things are that have a genuine purpose or role. Immorality usually involves the misuse of something that if use correctly is no t immoral. There is little in history that has led more people to suffer than loving the wrong things.

Where did you get any of this?
Well, let me first ask you...are you against it because you care for the well being of others? (And excuse the assumption...but maybe dont want them to go to hell?)
OR, are you against it because it doesnt benefit your own well being? (And perhaps, the actions of others has a negative effect on your own beliefs?)

So how do i know anything i claimed? For starters...the bible says that God is Love. (A fine line between lust and love...theres a difference.)
So if true love is sinful...then 'God' is sinful.

As for question 1.) Those are referring to lust. But the ultimate goal is to find a true love within the search of lustful things. Doesnt every heart desire true love? And if true love is indeed God...it would explain why we are so determined to 'find' God. (Think back to why you joined this forum.) And as for this 'inappropriate' love you speak of. Of course! It is very destructive. But we cant know the difference between destructive or constructive (or inappropriate to appropriate)...without experiencing the opposite. Maybe thats why we are all sinners? I dont like admitting i have sinned...but i have. Ultimately i was aware enough to benefit from my mistakes...forgive myself, and ask for forgiveness from others...instead of a loss...it was gain! Because i knew for myself. Even is this inappropriate love IS sinful...why stop someone from learning for themselves?
Question 2.) If we are made in Gods image, and God is neither male nor female (and cant prove otherwise)...then thats where i got that from. Its not so far-fetched.
Question 3.) Well yes, physically...we are one or the other MOST of the time. But perhaps God allowed humans to be born that are both? Its living proof...not everyone is either male or female. Both exist at the same time. Even scientifically...we have a balance of hormones from both male and female. One is just dominant. We can research the soul except threw individual experience...but logical tells us soul has no gender.
As for question 4.) Sin enevitably has a purpose. Mistakes...they have purpose. So this OP is most sinful in your perspective. I would feel grateful. :) you have established a sense of right and wrong...and do your best to apply good moral standards into your life. And thats awesome! But perhaps, this person has not had the oppurtunity to learn right from wrong. If they do not know they have sinned...God cannot condem them. For they hadnt known! So please, just give them a chance to learn...i dont think its morally right to apply same sex in MY life either. So i dont. And im sin free in that aspect. We arent all at the same level here.
So ultimately...even if you dont get the gender aspect of my claim. You dont have to...the real issue is this: let them live. Let them suffer (if you believe thats what the outcome will be.) Live, and let live.
To conclude...i really do care for all humanity...noone likes to suffer. But we all suffer. (And if your a Christian...) God himself even suffered. But its not 'suffering' anymore when we are able to spiritually grow from it...its Grace.
Let it go, and let him grow. :) it isnt our battle to fight...and we have no authority to judge.
 
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Tiberius

Well-Known Member
The larger font was to try and make sure those who it applied to noticed it. It was not an argument so your critique of an argument not made was wasted time.

We read posts. It would have been read no matter what size it was. Anyway...

If you read my post instead of scanning it I included all the "less risky" form of homosexuality and why they do not overcome either of my two primary points. This is like a broken record or a whack-a-mole. As soon as one argument is dealt with another pops up, when it is contended another and probably the first argument pops up again. I have stated in detail why these monogamy and condom use arguments have never worked, do not work, and will never work in post after post after post. Just review a bit.

By this logic, we should be against heterosexual sex as well. It spreads a great deal of disease. The fact that such disease can be arrested by use of condoms and a lack of promiscuity does nothing to change this. So I hope you are going to be a virgin.

Really, you can't just pretend like it doesn't happen. Monogamous relationships and use of condoms are very effective at minimizing the spread of STDs. Gay or straight. Once again, you are arguing against having unsafe sex with multiple partners, and I think that most people here would agree with you in that.

The CDC must present the most relevant cause, they can't be wrong. That is their business. They said it was homosexuality that caused the problem. Once again I have already said promiscuity is part of it but since it is drastically higher in Homosexual relationships (the average is 3-5 years for monogamous homosexual relationships) it is inseparable from it. Homosexuality is moral insanity and that disease causes countless other sexual immoral actions like lack in fidelity and the higher risk of having sex with or without protection, but it would make no difference anyway.

No, they present the data. If their data does not include the number of partners a person has, nor if they are in a monogamous relationship, then these categories won't be in the results presented.

How about you find me a source that shows the likelihood of a gay man who has had very few partners and is currently in a monogamous relationship catching an STD.

You know this entire post and posts of others is saying the same thing in different ways and it never works. Lets go to fantasy land for a second to illustrate this.

1. Lets pretend every homosexual was in a lifelong monogamous relationship.
2. Lets say they all used condoms or whatever else to limit risk.
3. Lets pretend they all maintain complete fidelity.

Now everyone of these have massive rates of infidelity, irresponsible sex, and monogamy in the homosexual community is extremely brief.

However if give the above fantasy illustration some risk is not even affected at all and others are only lowered. It is still present in huge amounts even in the best of scenarios. It still has no justification to compensate for the losses so in it's best for it is morally unjustifiable.

And I once again accuse you of making this up and demand you provide a source to support your claim that the spread of HIV will be widespread among gay people, even if they have few partners and monogamous relationship.

I've noticed that you are refusing to live up to your agreement. Let me refresh your memory:

"For every claim you question or say I am making up facts that I provide reliable data for you must post an apology." SOURCE

You have not lived up to this agreement. I have asked you to provide data supporting claims you made, and you have done no such thing. Specifically, these are the claims you have made and not provided evidence for:

You claimed that the spread of disease among gay people causes an unacceptable level of death, suffering and costs billions of dollars without providing evidence. SOURCE

You claimed that gay sex would be wrong even if it caused no death, suffering or cost without providing any explanation as to why.SOURCE

You claimed that promiscuity was not a significant cause of the spread of disease among gay people without providing evidence. SOURCE

You claimed that homosexual people are far more promiscuous than heterosexual people without providing evidence. SOURCE

Unless you can provide your evidence for these, you are making them up and they are all useless arguments. But, as per our agreement, provide the evidence and I will apologise public in any manner you wish.


That was only half the agreement. Since I have posted all these statistics in this thread and they exist a thousand sites, I can't justifying them every time a new poster that will not review a little asks for the. So in order to make it worth my while you must agree to admit and apologize when I pot then in you response post. You must admit I was not lying and must admit I was right in your post before I will post the stats for the 4th time. Deal?

I'm not going to look through almost 2000 posts to find your alleged evidence. If I accuse you of making something up, you must provide the evidence supporting your view. That's our agreement, so don't try to wriggle out of it now.

What? I have done everything I can to not present an solutions. It is not my burden nor am I qualified to do so. I am calling a bad thing wrong. The end. Any solution I may have mentioned was to show they exist not that they were the best nor what I would choose.

So you are telling me that even though you think gay sex is very very bad, you're perfectly happy for gay people to continue?

That is a genetic fallacy.

Care to explain how genes have any bearing on the sharpshooter fallacy?

No matter how I arrived at a truth or when evidence came into play it would still be true.

Irrelevant. You could have a monkey that picks scraps of paper out of a barrel. Just because he picked a piece of paper with accurate information doesn't mean it's a reliable method for finding accurate information.

However just out of curiosity what evidence do you have to counter that lust of the 4% produce 60% of the aids that would render those numbers void. Love to see that.

Did I disagree with that claim? My claim is that there are very easy ways to control the spread of disease.

The truth was that I had an intuitive and theological rejection of homosexuality.

This is what I was saying. You are cherry picking your data to support the conclusion you reached without looking at any data. Reaching your conclusion and then selecting or discarding your data to give a biased result in favour of your conclusion is very poor form, and I cannot take you seriously.

I wanted to know if secular reasons existed to argue or prove it.

There aren't.

To my surprise, my two main contention proved to be bullet proof.

They aren't bulletproof. You're just ignoring all the bullet holes.

I actually thought that people who had been sitting around for years thinking of ways to rationalize homosexuality would have quickly over come my point. So far far they have not even been dented by the totality of 6 arguments every one in this thread together have used. No matter how my claims evolved, they work, they never fail and there is no need to bring into it.

Six arguments? Have I missed any? All I've seen you claim is that it causes death and suffering and cost. At best that's three, and it's a small amount of death, suffering and cost compared to the things that heterosexual sex causes!
 

ladybug77

Active Member
Here i am thinking i make perfect logical sense...and my taughts are ignored, and debates continue endlessly. Its insanity. We agrue the same old views...back and forth, and back and forth...for eternity...and yet we brush aside a presented way of thinking that could actually create peace.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
It's humans who are to blame. If no one were human, there would be no AIDS problem at all.

Therefore it is immoral to be human.

(I doubt you'll have any idea what this message means, but many of the participants in this thread are experienced logicians. Some will appreciate it.)

1. This is just another rationalization of death.
2. Being human is something we are. Gay sex is something we do.
3. Being black or Irish is not a crime and not causal concerning disease.
4. Homosexual sex is causal for entire lists of things that bring suffering and even death, and it spreads other lists of things that do the same.
5. Mosquitos did not invent malaria but since they spread it we have tried to kill every last one of them. I certainly never purposed that but at the very least I am not arguing for mosquito freedom to infect at will.
8. Logicians are irrelevant because no logistical argument was made by me.
9. You need people with math degrees. I have one, my boss has a PhD. And the CDC where my stats came from has thousands. What you got, besides the worst defense of death in history? Hitler's defense of the Holocaust was more rational.

Not to worry though, with people like you, and arguments like these, the whole human race will all turn gay and it will cease to exist and aids will no longer be an issue.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
We read posts. It would have been read no matter what size it was. Anyway...
I have no idea what percentage of posts to other people you may read. I made sure even if not a response to person X, that person X would notice it. Is this against the Geneva convention, the Hague convention, or anything at all. Is post size the only argument you thought you could carry>



By this logic, we should be against heterosexual sex as well. It spreads a great deal of disease. The fact that such disease can be arrested by use of condoms and a lack of promiscuity does nothing to change this. So I hope you are going to be a virgin.
My God, this is like the tenth level of Hell where the worst arguments in history are on a broken record that plays forever. I have dealt with this one claim in at least 20 places. I only have two points and you had to ignore one of them to say this yet again. Apparently you do not read every posts or even 20% of them.

Heterosexuality has risks, Homosexuality has far more. However the difference is that heterosexuality has the continuation of the human race to justify the risks. Homosexuality does not.



Really, you can't just pretend like it doesn't happen. Monogamous relationships and use of condoms are very effective at minimizing the spread of STDs. Gay or straight. Once again, you are arguing against having unsafe sex with multiple partners, and I think that most people here would agree with you in that.
I never said it did not lessen them and answered this same point at least 15 times. Until you find a post where I denied it I am not doing so again. I thought you said you read posts.


No, they present the data. If their data does not include the number of partners a person has, nor if they are in a monogamous relationship, then these categories won't be in the results presented.
Do you have any training in statistics. A group composed of all male on male homosexuals included all sub groups of male on male homosexuals. However it would not matter anyway. You may and do cherry pick any sub-group you wish, even ones that have less than 1% of homosexuals in it and my two primary points stand.


How about you find me a source that shows the likelihood of a gay man who has had very few partners and is currently in a monogamous relationship catching an STD.
Because it has no effect. Find any cherry picked sub group you wish. I don't care. The only group my two claims do not condemn is an abstinent homosexual subgroup.


And I once again accuse you of making this up and demand you provide a source to support your claim that the spread of HIV will be widespread among gay people, even if they have few partners and monogamous relationship.
And once again I will make you the same offer I make to every new poster after posting the data several times over. I will post it and sources yet again if you make it worth my while by promising to apologize and concede the point when I do. If you had the slightest confidence in what you claimed you should have no fear in promising to do so. That or you could do the most minimal of reviews.

I've noticed that you are refusing to live up to your agreement. Let me refresh your memory:

"For every claim you question or say I am making up facts that I provide reliable data for you must post an apology." SOURCE

You have not lived up to this agreement. I have asked you to provide data supporting claims you made, and you have done no such thing. Specifically, these are the claims you have made and not provided evidence for:
I have not seen an agreement top you side of the bargain yet.

You claimed that the spread of disease among gay people causes an unacceptable level of death, suffering and costs billions of dollars without providing evidence. SOURCE
This is not a statistical claim. It causes millions of deaths by spreading aids alone. It does not create a life, and if fact can't. One death is too many if there are no compensating gains. This one requires no statistics. Here are a few anyway.

Homosexuals live unhealthy lifestyles, and have historically accounted for the bulk of syphilis, gonorrhea, Hepatitis B, the "gay bowel syndrome" (which attacks the intestinal tract), tuberculosis and cytomegalovirus (27).
Depending on the city, 39-59% of homosexuals are infected with intestinal parasites like worms, flukes and amoebae, which is common in filthy third world countries (8).
(27) United States Congressional Record, June 29, 1989.
(8) Fields, Dr. E. "Is Homosexual Activity Normal?" Marietta, GA.
Now is the bulk acceptable suffering and cost for what has no justifying gain even possible?


You claimed that gay sex would be wrong even if it caused no death, suffering or cost without providing any explanation as to why.SOURCE
See the above and here are a few more.
  • The median age of death of homosexuals is 42 (only 9% live past age 65). This drops to 39 if the cause of death is AIDS. The median age of death of a married heterosexual man is 75 (8).
  • The median age of death of lesbians is 45 (only 24% live past age 65). The median age of death of a married heterosexual woman is 79 (8).
  • Homosexuals are 100 times more likely to be murdered (usually by another homosexual) than the average person, 25 times more likely to commit suicide, and 19 times more likely to die in a traffic accident (8).
8) Fields, Dr. E. "Is Homosexual Activity Normal?" Marietta, GA.

You claimed that promiscuity was not a significant cause of the spread of disease among gay people without providing evidence. SOURCE
I did not. In fact provide any statement where I claimed that.



You claimed that homosexual people are far more promiscuous than heterosexual people without providing evidence. SOURCE

The 2003-2004 Gay/Lesbian Consumer Online Census surveyed the lifestyles of 7,862 homosexuals. Of those involved in a "current relationship," only 15 percent describe their current relationship as having lasted twelve years or longer, with five percent lasting more than twenty years.[4] While this "snapshot in time" is not an absolute predictor of the length of homosexual relationships, it does indicate that few homosexual relationships achieve the longevity common in marriages.

Source: 2003-2004 Gay/Lesbian Consumer Online Census​
In The Sexual Organization of the City, University of Chicago sociologist Edward Laumann argues that "typical gay city inhabitants spend most of their adult lives in 'transactional' relationships, or short-term commitments of less than six months."[5]
A study of homosexual men in the Netherlands published in the journal AIDS found that the "duration of steady partnerships" was 1.5 years.[6]
In his study of male homosexuality in Western Sexuality: Practice and Precept in Past and Present Times, Pollak found that "few homosexual relationships last longer than two years, with many men reporting hundreds of lifetime partners."[7]
In Male and Female Homosexuality, Saghir and Robins found that the average male homosexual live-in relationship lasts between two and three years.[8]
4. "Largest Gay Study Examines 2004 Relationships," GayWire Latest Breaking Releases, glcensus.org - gl census Resources and Information. This website is for sale!.
5. Adrian Brune, "City Gays Skip Long-term Relationships: Study Says," Washington Blade (February 27, 04): 12.
6. Maria Xiridou, et al, "The Contribution of Steady and Casual Partnerships to the Incidence of HIV Infection among Homosexual Men in Amsterdam," AIDS 17 (2003): 1031.
7. M. Pollak, "Male Homosexuality," in Western Sexuality: Practice and Precept in Past and Present Times, ed. P. Aries and A. Bejin, translated by Anthony Forster (New York, NY: B. Blackwell, 1985): 40-61, cited by Joseph Nicolosi in Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality (Northvale, New Jersey: Jason Aronson Inc., 1991): 124, 125.
8. M. Saghir and E. Robins, Male and Female Homosexuality (Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1973): 225; L. A. Peplau and H. Amaro, "Understanding Lesbian Relationships," in Homosexuality:Social, Psychological, and Biological Issues, ed. J. Weinrich and W. Paul (Beverly Hills: Sage, 1982).


Unless you can provide your evidence for these, you are making them up and they are all useless arguments. But, as per our agreement, provide the evidence and I will apologise public in any manner you wish.
Ok after you list them all, you finally agree so I will go back and supply them.

Even the far less than 1% of statistics I supplied above of the amount I could will not fit on one post so I am continuing it below.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I'm not going to look through almost 2000 posts to find your alleged evidence. If I accuse you of making something up, you must provide the evidence supporting your view. That's our agreement, so don't try to wriggle out of it now.
How am I obligated to repost a threads worth of stats for every new poster unwilling to spend 15 minutes looking for them? Wriggle out of what? The last post was the first agreement to my request I saw.


So you are telling me that even though you think gay sex is very very bad, you're perfectly happy for gay people to continue?
Where in the heck did you get that from? Not passing a sentence or forcing a solution I am unqualified to enact is in no one imagination being happy with something. That is another grotesque attempt to reposition a claim into something about which an irrational comment concerning moral high ground can be coughed up.


Care to explain how genes have any bearing on the sharpshooter fallacy?
I know what Genes are and I know what the fallacy is. I have no idea what connection they have.


Irrelevant. You could have a monkey that picks scraps of paper out of a barrel. Just because he picked a piece of paper with accurate information doesn't mean it's a reliable method for finding accurate information.
That has nothing to do with my statement. We are not discussing reliable ways to comprehend reality. Though if you want to we can.


Did I disagree with that claim? My claim is that there are very easy ways to control the spread of disease.
Until there are universal ways to end them homosexuality does not even have a theoretical defense, and even if that hypothetical "miracle" occurred it would only effect the evidence it is wrong not the moral quality of the act. Even something no one ever realizes was stolen is still theft.


This is what I was saying. You are cherry picking your data to support the conclusion you reached without looking at any data. Reaching your conclusion and then selecting or discarding your data to give a biased result in favour of your conclusion is very poor form, and I cannot take you seriously.
NO I am not. The overwhelming almost universal negativity of all data does not allow justification of homosexuality, even your sides constant CHERRY PICKING less risky sub-groups incessantly is of no help. This was extremely hypocritical.


There aren't.
Then why can't you or anyone else here overcome even an argument that isn't. If you can't whip no-one you sure can't whip anyone.


They aren't bulletproof. You're just ignoring all the bullet holes.
Apparently rhetoric is all that is left.


Six arguments? Have I missed any? All I've seen you claim is that it causes death and suffering and cost. At best that's three, and it's a small amount of death, suffering and cost compared to the things that heterosexual sex causes!
Well you said "oh yeah, prove it" (which I have and did) a bunch of times. However no arguments existed beyond that at all.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
Not to worry though, with people like you, and arguments like these, the whole human race will all turn gay and it will cease to exist and aids will no longer be an issue.

That will be a great and moral day for Mother Earth.

(But I'm guessing that from within your human skin, you would see it as a negative?)
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Here i am thinking i make perfect logical sense...and my taughts are ignored, and debates continue endlessly. Its insanity. We agrue the same old views...back and forth, and back and forth...for eternity...and yet we brush aside a presented way of thinking that could actually create peace.
That is what happens when you do not respond to responses:

Originally Posted by ladybug77
You can. Love is not sinful. This OP is explainable if you look outside the box. If souls exist...we have no set in stone gender. Thats a reason some male bodies fell as if they are women...and vis-versa. If you belive our natural state of 'being' is not merely physical...then you have the answer. Your conscience, your personality...its a factor to consider. But love is never a sin...people just remain close-minded.
I am starting to get the picture than in the defense of homosexuality anything, and I mean ANYTHING will be claimed. Not only stuff that is not true, or simply wrong, even stuff that can't possibly be true is used. How do you any of what you claimed?

1. Love can be very very sinful. Ask anyone with a teenage daughter. We love violence, drugs, alcohol, and sex in all situations. Some even love suffering, causing harm, theft, and trouble. Every dug treatment facility will you that a person who gives up even what is killing them will mourn its loss. There is little in human history as destructive as inappropriately loving something or someone.

2. The soul has no ability to render gender meaningless. I do not even know where you contrived that from. I am not any less or more male with a soul than without one.

3. Gender is biological not soulish. We are what we are because of chromosomes. That is not even consistent. If souls mean we have no gender then how in the world do you suggest souls make us male even if we are biologically female.

4. Love can be most sinful, as all things are that have a genuine purpose or role. Immorality usually involves the misuse of something that if use correctly is no t immoral. There is little in history that has led more people to suffer than loving the wrong things.

Where did you get any of this?

This is where your supposed to respond
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
That will be a great and moral day for Mother Earth.

(But I'm guessing that from within your human skin, you would see it as a negative?)
And it will last at best 60 years and your sides moral insanity will have finally destroyed it all. The last liberal, in their last gasp, will yell it is Bush's fault. Instead of T.S. Elliot's world dying with a whimper, the last liberal will go out with a whine (where is my Obama care?).
 

Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
There's a real problem with the vociferous, mainly american, religious audience vilifying homosexual people. Of course there's nothing wrong with homosexuals or homosexuality and there's a good chance that it could be epigenetic in nature (in which case why would god make people genetically gay? lol). But what religious people tend to forget, at least in christian ideology is the following: god hates the sin, not the sinner.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
And it will last at best 60 years and your sides moral insanity will have finally destroyed it all. The last liberal, in their last gasp, will yell it is Bush's fault. Instead of T.S. Elliot's world dying with a whimper, the last liberal will go out with a whine (where is my Obama care?).

You really are lost.

I voted for Bush, man. I also voted for Clinton. I really can't express to you how I view your little black-and-white world of 'liberals' vs. 'goodguys.'

What on earth are you doing in a serious religion forum.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
It's My Birthday!
Not to worry though, with people like you, and arguments like these, the whole human race will all turn gay and it will cease to exist and aids will no longer be an issue.

We can reproduce without sex, so the prevalent sexual orientation amongst humans doesn't matter.

Straights have more anal than gay men do since there's a lot more straights and not all gay men even have anal sex.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
Not to worry though, with people like you, and arguments like these, the whole human race will all turn gay and it will cease to exist and aids will no longer be an issue.



Oh noes! We are turning gay! ALL OF US!

:biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
You cant see the giant hole that your argument is because I doubt you can see the borders of it. xD
In the exact same way I want to scream "This is not going to end well" at the guys throwing rocks at the Abrams Tanks, just before they disappear in a could of dust. You commentary will not work where data and evidence are supposed to be, and like the guys in the smoke I have to wonder what the point was.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
We can reproduce without sex, so the prevalent sexual orientation amongst humans doesn't matter.
That is probably why it has never been a prominent part of my argument, nature, or why it is such a prominent part of your sides argumentation. My post was satire. Have you reviewed the dozens and dozens that were not? Is ridiculousness not comprehended a defense of homosexuality?

Straights have more anal than gay men do since there's a lot more straights and not all gay men even have anal sex.
Is this a thread on that subject. I will be consistent like I always am if so.

Now then do you have anything at all to contend with my primary claims or not?
 
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1robin

Christian/Baptist
You really are lost.

I voted for Bush, man. I also voted for Clinton. I really can't express to you how I view your little black-and-white world of 'liberals' vs. 'goodguys.'

What on earth are you doing in a serious religion forum.
We are back to what does not justify a response. Didn't take too long.
 
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1robin

Christian/Baptist
There's a real problem with the vociferous, mainly american, religious audience vilifying homosexual people. Of course there's nothing wrong with homosexuals or homosexuality and there's a good chance that it could be epigenetic in nature (in which case why would god make people genetically gay? lol). But what religious people tend to forget, at least in christian ideology is the following: god hates the sin, not the sinner.
For Goodness sakes, that is a Christian position not a secular one. We learn it in the first years of Bible study not in "God sucks" 101. It never ceases to amaze me that your side can attempt to contend with a hundred pages of data, logical deduction, un contestable (apparently) argumentation, and the foundations of almost all civil law with few sentences of rhetoric. People with aids die in the real world and rhetoric can't save them, in fact rhetoric is what is killing them (indirectly).
 
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