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Why did God tempt Adam and Eve?

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Could you elaborate on that?

Sure... there are things that are traditions that are perfectly fine. There are things that were absolutely wrong and, in the case of the Catholic Church, have corrected.

An example is the baptism of babies for the absolving of the original sin. As a tradition, no hurt done. Scripturally, there is no support for the act. I have attended many in honor of the parents.

Indulgences was absolutely wrong. Not only not scirputral, but hurt the poor and extortioned the rich. This act was changed (I believe) although there may be pockets that still use it since they believe in purgatory, another unscriptural position (although in America I can't say I have heard them talk about it)
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
original sin was a basic teaching when I was attending catholic schools

granted.....someone had to be first to offend God

but I say.....that was God's Favored
along with one third of heaven
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
An example is the baptism of babies for the absolving of the original sin. As a tradition, no hurt done. Scripturally, there is no support for the act.
Except in Acts is says that a family was baptized, although we don't know their ages. Back then, the man was viewed as the head of the family, so the way the husband/father went was the way that the wife and children went.

When infant baptism became the norm, largely due to the panic that the plagues created, baptism was split into two sacraments if a child was baptized: baptism and confirmation.

Indulgences was absolutely wrong. Not only not scirputral, but hurt the poor and extortioned the rich.
It was viewed as a "sacrifice", which is found in different forms throughout the scriptures. However, this was obviously too self-serving, thus being banned during the Counter-Reformation and beyond through today.

This act was changed (I believe) although there may be pockets that still use it since they believe in purgatory, another unscriptural position (although in America I can't say I have heard them talk about it)
"Purgatory" is an "interpretation" (remember your own word :D) that relates to several verses plus the belief in sheol. Supportive verses include Matt. 12:32, Heb. 12:23, Rev, 21:27. Also, the Jewish practice of praying for the dead, which shows up in the book of "Sirach", was commonplace in the early church, so there's a tradition that comes into play here as well.

Now, mind you, I'm hardly one to say that this is a correct "interpretation", but it is one nevertheless that's based on scriptures and past practice.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Except in Acts is says that a family was baptized, although we don't know their ages. Back then, the man was viewed as the head of the family, so the way the husband/father went was the way that the wife and children went.
No doubt.. .but it has more reference to being children and adults than it does babies.

When infant baptism became the norm, largely due to the panic that the plagues created, baptism was split into two sacraments if a child was baptized: baptism and confirmation.
I understand "how" it came to pass. Remember, I said "no harm in doing it"... but there really isn't any scriptural support that "original sin" requires an infant baptism.

It was viewed as a "sacrifice", which is found in different forms throughout the scriptures. However, this was obviously too self-serving, thus being banned during the Counter-Reformation and beyond through today.

"Purgatory" is an "interpretation" (remember your own word :D) that relates to several verses plus the belief in sheol. Supportive verses include Matt. 12:32, Heb. 12:23, Rev, 21:27. Also, the Jewish practice of praying for the dead, which shows up in the book of "Sirach", was commonplace in the early church, so there's a tradition that comes into play here as well.

Now, mind you, I'm hardly one to say that this is a correct "interpretation", but it is one nevertheless that's based on scriptures and past practice.

LOL... yes, I know, interpretation. But the question is, when does "interpretation" violate obvious scriptures that says something different.

According to scripture, it says "let everything be established by the witness of two". For an example, baby baptism; you gave me Acts 10 as a reference but we are only able to say "it is possible"... but no direct reference. Where, in all of scripture, do we find anytime a baby is baptised. There isn't any.

So let's take purgatory, which is a "temporary" time where people are paying for a certain amount of sins but isn't an eternal punishment. You mentioned certain scriptures, of which there are many more, that speak of the possibility of a hell but none suggest a temoral time.

Now, let's apply these scriptures:

Heb 10:2 Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins.

Col 2:14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

And a host of many more. So the question is, at what point does a theological stance so violate scripture that the position is no longer tenable?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
No doubt.. .but it has more reference to being children and adults than it does babies.
But it doesn't give the age of those in the family, so how could you possibly know that it's "children" that doesn't include "babies"? And what difference in the final analysis does it really make? Do you honestly believe that baptism is the end-all?

Remember, I said "no harm in doing it"... but there really isn't any scriptural support that "original sin" requires an infant baptism.
That's assuming that your interpretation of "original sin" is correct, which I personally very much doubt unless one views God as being a homicidal maniac. There's a vast difference between one being negatively influenced by the sins within the family versus one being condemned by the sin of another family member or the "human family" as a whole.

LOL... yes, I know, interpretation. But the question is, when does "interpretation" violate obvious scriptures that says something different.
But does it "violate" the scriptures in reality? Just because there may be a change in how something may be administered doesn't necessarily mean that it "violates scripture".

I think if Jesus walked into a church today that he likely scratch his head and wonder what's going on here-- but that doesn't mean what we see today is bad-- in many or most cases it's just different applications, and "confirmation" makes up that difference when it comes to baptism.

According to scripture, it says "let everything be established by the witness of two". For an example, baby baptism; you gave me Acts 10 as a reference but we are only able to say "it is possible"... but no direct reference. Where, in all of scripture, do we find anytime a baby is baptised. There isn't any.
See above. Again, "confirmation" ultimately includes everything found when dealing with the issue of baptism, especially since the baptismal vows are repeated.

You mentioned certain scriptures, of which there are many more, that speak of the possibility of a hell but none suggest a temoral time.
But sheol is a "temporary time", plus since praying for the dead was done in the early church and even before then, there must have been the concept that one may not immediately be assumed into heaven and that we could pray for one another-- the "communion of saints".

And a host of many more. So the question is, at what point does a theological stance so violate scripture that the position is no longer tenable?
But does it "violate" scripture or is it just another way of administering it?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Sometimes the church does change, albeit v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y, but also some items sorta get de-emphasized. An example would be the church's views on the evolution of life.

As an example, yesterday I was at mass at my wife's church that we've been going to for over 40 years, and the homily dealt with suffering. At no point did the priest say anything about "original sin", instead saying that bad things happen because of natural events, people doing bad things, or people making poor decisions. He said it is wrong to blame God when bad things happen, and he did not make any reference whatsoever to Adam & Eve and "the Fall".

Now, grant that this is just one homily, but over all the years attending my wife's church, I'm having a hard time recollecting whether I ever heard the issue of "original sin" being stated directly or implied. And I taught the RCIA program for 14 years but never made a single reference to it.

Regardless in ALL the classes taught in ALL Roman Churches, the Catechism is the same for children and adults, and will not likely change, in fact very unlikely, since these doctrines have hardened in recent years. There is no Readers Digest version of the Catechism that dilutes certain aspects of doctrines. That would something like the old Dutch Catechism which was removed from the church.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Regardless in ALL the classes taught in ALL Roman Churches, the Catechism is the same for children and adults, and will not likely change, in fact very unlikely, since these doctrines have hardened in recent years.
Well, the conservative bishops are not really happy with PF because he's not always touting the "company line", plus Vatican II shows that change can and has taken place-- just have p-a-t-i-e-n-c-e. ;)
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
All we need do is switch the word imperfect for fallible. Then we understand. Imperfect people cannot be in a utopia, necessitating Christ to die to keep Adam and Eve in a/the Garden, let alone a Heavenly Kingdom that is far superior to some garden!

Where you are mistaken in how you get that we are to blame Adam and Eve for wars and etc. now. The Bible disagrees with you (Romans 5, for example) and so does logic. You and I are responsible for suffering now. Adam and Eve are no more responsible for your sin that my great-grandfather is!

It does not change anything to substitute imperfect for fallible, because in the context of human nature.

The problem is your disagreeing with all the references I have provided. Like @KenS, and @Faithofchristian I consider it constructing your own theology apart from the the references I cited.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Well, the conservative bishops are not really happy with PF because he's not always touting the "company line", plus Vatican II shows that change can and has taken place-- just have p-a-t-i-e-n-c-e. ;)

PF pleases the reformers, but the reality he cannot change nor has he proposed changing anything. In fact if you read his homelies, and writings completely he still tows the doctrine line. I would have to see a specific proposal where PF has proposd a significant change in doctrine or the Catechism. I have followed him and the history of the church, and even Pope John and Vatican II, no change was proposed.

Popes come and go, but no change is forthcoming.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
But it doesn't give the age of those in the family, so how could you possibly know that it's "children" that doesn't include "babies"? And what difference in the final analysis does it really make? Do you honestly believe that baptism is the end-all?
WHOOOOOOA THERE HORSEY!!

I never said I know the ages but that it is only an assumption.
I'm the one that said "you can baptise children if you want"
I NEVER said baptism is the end-all... and, as a matter of fact, don't believe that it is
The pattern give in Acts is that you baptise people is after you accept Jesus Christ as Lord (babies don't do that)

That's assuming that your interpretation of "original sin" is correct, which I personally very much doubt unless one views God as being a homicidal maniac. There's a vast difference between one being negatively influenced by the sins within the family versus one being condemned by the sin of another family member or the "human family" as a whole.
LOL... Ok... what is my interpretation of "original sin"? And, if you got my interpretation correct, how does it make God a homocidal maniac?

But does it "violate" the scriptures in reality? Just because there may be a change in how something may be administered doesn't necessarily mean that it "violates scripture".
WHOAAA there horsey! Didn't I say you could admister baby baptism if you want to?

I think if Jesus walked into a church today that he likely scratch his head and wonder what's going on here-- but that doesn't mean what we see today is bad-- in many or most cases it's just different applications, and "confirmation" makes up that difference when it comes to baptism.

See above. Again, "confirmation" ultimately includes everything found when dealing with the issue of baptism, especially since the baptismal vows are repeated.
Are we talking about the same thiing? I have no problem with "confirmation" if someone wants to do it.

But sheol is a "temporary time", plus since praying for the dead was done in the early church and even before then, there must have been the concept that one may not immediately be assumed into heaven and that we could pray for one another-- the "communion of saints".

But does it "violate" scripture or is it just another way of administering it?

Hmmm... we are talking about purgatory... did you address the scriptures that I gave and how would you reconcile the two concepts?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
PF pleases the reformers, but the reality he cannot change nor has he proposed changing anything.

I have followed him and the history of the church, and even Pope John and Vatican II, no change was proposed.
Sorry, but I simply cannot go along with you on this because changes indeed did take place during Vatican II, plus why would many of the conservative bishops have a problem with PF if there really were no changes involved? [rhetorical question-- we'll just have to agree, I guess, that we don't agree]
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I never said I know the ages but that it is only an assumption.
I'm the one that said "you can baptise children if you want"
I NEVER said baptism is the end-all... and, as a matter of fact, don't believe that it is
Good.:)

The pattern give in Acts is that you baptise people is after you accept Jesus Christ as Lord (babies don't do that)
Which is where "confirmation" comes in.:)

LOL... Ok... what is my interpretation of "original sin"? And, if you got my interpretation correct, how does it make God a homocidal maniac?
It appears that I may have misunderstood you because I thought you were of the ilk that baptism was necessary for "salvation".

Hmmm... we are talking about purgatory... did you address the scriptures that I gave and how would you reconcile the two concepts?
I actually didn't have time to look them up as I've been busy, plus apparently I've come down with a cold or the black plague or something.

WHOOOOOOA THERE HORSEY!!!...

WHOAAA there horsey!
You gotta "thing" for horses, do ya. I wonder what Freud woulda said about that? :eek:

As for me, I've been compared to a horse alright, but only one half of its body. :(
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Sure... there are things that are traditions that are perfectly fine. There are things that were absolutely wrong and, in the case of the Catholic Church, have corrected.

An example is the baptism of babies for the absolving of the original sin. As a tradition, no hurt done. Scripturally, there is no support for the act. I have attended many in honor of the parents.

Indulgences was absolutely wrong. Not only not scirputral, but hurt the poor and extortioned the rich. This act was changed (I believe) although there may be pockets that still use it since they believe in purgatory, another unscriptural position (although in America I can't say I have heard them talk about it)


KenS, if I may say, The use of Purgatory by the Roman Catholic Church, there is no praying people out or praying for their sins to be forgiven nor can people do good works to have people taken out of Purgatory.

But Christ Jesus does speak about such a place, it is called The Great Gulf fixed in Luke 16:26--"And beside all this, between us and you there is a Great Gulf fixed: So that they which would pass from here to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from here"

So you see Christ Jesus does in fact teach about such a place. That those who have died and cross over to the other side of the Great Gulf fixed can not pass back to us, neither can we pass over to them.
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Heb 10:2 Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins.

Col 2:14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
OK, thanks for this, but as you might suspect, I don't buy it. I think these are theological constructs based on opinions built on the belief that Jesus was sorta in cahoots with God, which is fine for you but not me.

For me, I have respect for Jesus as a man and a great teacher, not a deity however, who's main teachings that I can relate to are faith and compassion and justice (fairness) for all. To me, all the rest is window-dressing, including rituals.

The CC definitely took your position over the centuries, minus inerrancy, but has pretty much re-looked at this and realized that those who wrote the above were "enthusiastic" believers writing decades after Jesus was martyred. What we read in those verses are peoples' opinions, which are all fine and dandy as far as they go, but the church never embraced "scriptural inerrancy".

The concept of scriptural inerrancy is pretty much a by-product of a reaction against "modernism" and is only about two centuries old. Matter of fact, Aquinas wrote that if one took the position of complete scriptural inerrancy, then one simply could not justify the view that Jesus was "the Messiah". Instead, the CC took the position that the scriptures are inerrant with the "basic teachings", but what's "basic" can be at least somewhat conjectural at times.

Anyhow, nice discussion, and I'm sorry I misinterpreted what you had said earlier.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The use of Purgatory by the Roman Catholic Church, there is no praying people out or praying for their sins to be forgiven nor can people do good works to have people taken out of Purgatory.
How could you possibly know that? Can I pray for you now? you for me? How about "the communion of saints" and the implication of what that means?

People prayed for each other in the early church, and this we know with certainty because of the pastoral letters (like what's found in the "Didache"), as well as the pre-Jesus Jewish practice as such. The viewpoint was that there was no real barrier between the "saints" that were living and the "saints" that were dead.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
How could you possibly know that? Can I pray for you now? you for me? How about "the communion of saints" and the implication of what that means?

People prayed for each other in the early church, and this we know with certainty because of the pastoral letters (like what's found in the "Didache"), as well as the pre-Jesus Jewish practice as such. The viewpoint was that there was no real barrier between the "saints" that were living and the "saints" that were dead.

As for praying for people now, yes you can pray for people that are alive now

But once they die, you can not pass over to them nor can they pass over to here.

Between us and those that haved died there's a great gulf fixed between us and them
That no one here can pass over to them nor can they pass from there to here.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Sorry, but I simply cannot go along with you on this because changes indeed did take place during Vatican II, plus why would many of the conservative bishops have a problem with PF if there really were no changes involved? [rhetorical question-- we'll just have to agree, I guess, that we don't agree]

I studied Vatican II in detail when it first came out shortly before I studied for the priesthood one year with the St Francis Order in Costa Rica. I may start a thread on this to see if there is interest. The main thing new in Vatican II, which did not effect the Catechism and doctrine of the Roman Church, was to develop a more diplomatic dialogue and relationship with other religions, churches, and non-believing and Protestant dominant countries. The document of the Vatican II in all other aspects was simply the Vatican I of the mid 19th century that was not approved, because of the break up of the Vatican States, and the political crisis.

One thing that really pissed off the conservative bishops was the end of the Latin Mass changed to have the Mass in the native language. Today the Latin Mass is back as optional.

I will address this in another thread, but if you can cite any changes in the doctrine of the Roman Church in Vatican II, please cite with references.
 
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