Why did Jesus die again?

[Midnight Pete]

doesn't this say;
god doesn't want you to know anything just do what he says without questioning gods authority.

There's knowledge and then there's forbidden knowledge. Questioning God's authority is how Lucifer became Satan. But it would wrong (I think) to demonize intellectual curiosity.

 

[waitasec]

There's knowledge and then there's forbidden knowledge. Questioning God's authority is how Lucifer became Satan. But it would wrong (I think) to demonize intellectual curiosity.

so knowing the difference between good and evil is forbidden knowledge

 

[Midnight Pete]

so knowing the difference between good and evil is forbidden knowledge

Personally, I don't think so.

 

[waitasec]

Personally, I don't think so.

are you saying god wanted adam and eve to die physically and spiritually?

 

[Midnight Pete]

are you saying god wanted adam and eve to die physically and spiritually?

The consequences were dire, and Adam & Eve were warned. And yet they still disobeyed. The first Adam failed, so when Jesus arrived on Earth he was to be the Adam 2.0 or New Adam.

 

[Blackdog22]

Personally, I don't think so.

Why do you think God considered it so?

Also, could you, or anyone else, address my post from page 2. It still appears that Jesus did die for nothing at all. I am still wondering how us still being under the bondage of sin and every effect of sin isn't proof that Jesus couldn't of died for that sin.

 

[Midnight Pete]

Why do you think God considered it so?

Also, could you, or anyone else, address my post from page 2. It still appears that Jesus did die for nothing at all. I am still wondering how us still being under the bondage of sin and every effect of sin isn't proof that Jesus couldn't of died for that sin.

Have you cracked open the Bible, ever?

 

[David M]

The sin was not death, pain in childbirth and snakes eating dirt. That was the punishment for the sin of not obeying God. People still don't obey God and still need punishment.

And yet the ones who do obey God still suffer the punishments, so yet again why did Jesus die?

Of course if it is the case that Jesus was supposed to fix this then the strong implication is that no christian is obeying God, which is why they suffer pain in childbirth etc.

 

[Blackdog22]

Have you cracked open the Bible, ever?

No, need for insults. I have studied the Bible my entire life and that is the reason I disbelieve it.

You said you didn't think that knowing the difference between good and evil should be forbidden knowledge. God disagrees as clearly outlined in the Bible. My question is why do you think God was wrong. Why do you not think ignorance is a good thing if God does?

Also, you still didn't answer any part of my 2nd post.

 

[Blackdog22]

And yet the ones who do obey God still suffer the punishments, so yet again why did Jesus die?

Of course if it is the case that Jesus was supposed to fix this then the strong implication is that no christian is obeying God, which is why they suffer pain in childbirth etc.

It is hard to tell whether this means no Christian is ever going to heaven or that Jesus never died for sin, that is the weird thing. The belief Jesus died and thus we no longer have to live in fear of sin, but instead are forgiven by Jesus. However we still die, have pain in childbirth, etc despite being forgiven.

It is like saying that I have taken all the purple coloring out of soda, yet it still remains purple which is obviously a color. I find that hard to understand.


Is this proof that Jesus never died for our sins? Why or why not.

 

[javajo]

I often wonder about the idea that Jesus actually died for our sins. I am even more curious as to why people actually believe he accomplished that..

When talking about the reason why Christ had to die we need to go back to Genesis where the original sin took place. It is said that sin was brought in by a perfect man(Adam) and thus a perfect man(Jesus) was needed to take away that original sin. However, this is obviously not so.

When discussing whether Jesus actually took away the original sin I often ask people whether they actually know what the original sin was. The original sin according to Genesis included: Death, Pain in Childbirth, Snakes Eating Dirt and Losing Their Legs, A need work for our food, and the Earth being cursed; which many assume to mean natural disasters.

So we look around us and what do we notice. Do people still die? Yes. Do women still have pain during Birth? Yes, less so with drugs though. Do we have to work for food? Yes. Do Natural Disasters Exist? Yes. Then finally the double whammy, apparently if Jesus died for our sins then snakes not eating dirt would make sense, but their legs not growing back and the above "after effects" of the original sin still being present make very little sense.

If Jesus died for any sins it definitely wasn't the sins the Bible refers to in Genesis. So why did Jesus die again?

We still live in a fallen world that will not be restored until a later time which is spoken of in Revelation after the return of Christ and the the Thousand Year Reign of Christ and the Great White Throne Judgement. Until then:
Romans 8:
22 We know that all that God created has been groaning. It is in pain as if it were giving birth to a child. The created world continues to groan even now. 23 And that's not all. We have the Holy Spirit as the promise of future blessing. But we also groan inside ourselves as we look forward to the time when God will adopt us as full members of his family. Then he will give us everything he has for us. He will raise our bodies and give glory to them.
24 That's the hope we had when we were saved. But hope that can be seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25 We hope for what we don't have yet. So we are patient as we wait for it.

 

[Blackdog22]

We still live in a fallen world that will not be restored until a later time which is spoken of in Revelation after the return of Christ and the the Thousand Year Reign of Christ and the Great White Throne Judgement. Until then:
Romans 8:
22 We know that all that God created has been groaning. It is in pain as if it were giving birth to a child. The created world continues to groan even now. 23 And that's not all. We have the Holy Spirit as the promise of future blessing. But we also groan inside ourselves as we look forward to the time when God will adopt us as full members of his family. Then he will give us everything he has for us. He will raise our bodies and give glory to them.
24 That's the hope we had when we were saved. But hope that can be seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25 We hope for what we don't have yet. So we are patient as we wait for it.

So your belief is that Jesus died so we could be resurrected? Dying for resurrection and dying for sin are two different things. Why would Jesus die an Earthly physical death for something non earthly? It is worthless to us here on Earth.

If you think Jesus died for our sins like the Bible states then what sins? If sin in and of itself causes physical manifestations, as mentioned in the Bible, then we can be certain Jesus died for no earthly sin.

So why send a man to earth to die for a non earthly sin. What is this non earthly sin? The Bible never mentions it. It has no impact on our lives so why die for something that never bothered us to begin with?

 

[Midnight Pete]

No, need for insults. I have studied the Bible my entire life and that is the reason I disbelieve it.

Sounds like a life wasted, then. It's a waste of life when a person studies the Bible only to confirm his own lack of belief. Why do people do this?

You said you didn't think that knowing the difference between good and evil should be forbidden knowledge. God disagrees as clearly outlined in the Bible. My question is why do you think God was wrong. Why do you not think ignorance is a good thing if God does?

Personally, I don't think knowledge of good and evil should be forbidden knowledge. What is knowledge of good and evil but a conscience? A conscience is absolutely necessary if you want to live according to Scripture.

Was God wrong to put the Tree of Knowledge in a place where Adam & Eve were certain to see it? I don't know. Was He wrong to throw the man and the woman out of the Garden for breaking the one rule He established? I don't know. Was God wrong to allow the Serpent into the garden in the first place? I don't know. Did God want them to remain ignorant forever? I don't know. Would God have eventually lifted the ban on that Knowledge Tree? I don't know. Were Adam & Eve to blame for their expulsion from the garden? I think their expulsion from Eden was inevitable. Just as the change from childhood to adulthood is inevitable, so to is transition from Garden of Eden to the Land of Nod both symbolically and literally.

Eden -- Childhood, no worries, no struggle, everything is provided for you

Nod -- Adhulthood, working to feed yourself, full of worry and hardship

Also, you still didn't answer any part of my 2nd post.

If there's still something I've missed, please let me know. I owe it to you.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Because God can see the results of the test without having to perform it. Thus, actually performing the test is redundant.

My thoughts exactly. Shucks......why was the tree placed there anyway if "God" knew his creation would disobey him? As we ask more and more paradoxical questions the more the book reads of a fairytale....

 

[Dirty Penguin]

It still appears that Jesus did die for nothing at all. I am still wondering how us still being under the bondage of sin and every effect of sin isn't proof that Jesus couldn't of died for that sin.

But was he needed...biblically speaking? The bible says everyone is responsible for their own actions and would be judged accordingly. The son will not inherit the sins of the father nor vice-versa.......

 

[waitasec]

The consequences were dire, and Adam & Eve were warned. And yet they still disobeyed. The first Adam failed, so when Jesus arrived on Earth he was to be the Adam 2.0 or New Adam.

so... knowing the difference between good and evil was/is not what god wants for us

 

[waitasec]

Personally, I don't think knowledge of good and evil should be forbidden knowledge. What is knowledge of good and evil but a conscience? A conscience is absolutely necessary if you want to live according to Scripture.

Was God wrong to put the Tree of Knowledge in a place where Adam & Eve were certain to see it? I don't know. Was He wrong to throw the man and the woman out of the Garden for breaking the one rule He established? I don't know. Was God wrong to allow the Serpent into the garden in the first place? I don't know. Did God want them to remain ignorant forever? I don't know. Would God have eventually lifted the ban on that Knowledge Tree? I don't know. Were Adam & Eve to blame for their expulsion from the garden? I think their expulsion from Eden was inevitable. Just as the change from childhood to adulthood is inevitable, so to is transition from Garden of Eden to the Land of Nod both symbolically and literally.

Eden -- Childhood, no worries, no struggle, everything is provided for you

Nod -- Adhulthood, working to feed yourself, full of worry and hardship

so...god created humans with the ability to think for themselves but forbidden to understand good and evil and face a dire consequence if they choose to understand.
but from what you say we cannot have a conscience if we do not know what good and evil means.
this is circular logic to me...

 

[Blackdog22]

Sounds like a life wasted, then. It's a waste of life when a person studies the Bible only to confirm his own lack of belief. Why do people do this?

More insults. Is this really how you want to represent your faith?

I didn't study the Bible to confirm my lack of belief, I studied the Bible because it was my families belief and my belief for years. I grew up going to Bible studies and learning each and every verse of the Bible one by one. One chapter at a time for years upon years. Later when I matured into adult hood I reread each book, each chapter, and each verse. It was then that I first had my doubts. There was much more before I lost my faith completely. Please from a human perspective, don't jump to conclusions and don't judge people on an assumed premise.

If there's still something I've missed, please let me know. I owe it to you.

The post was never about the Tree in the garden of Eden, but about whether it is reasonable to believe Jesus died for our sins based upon the Bible itself and I am arguing that it isn't.

 

[Midnight Pete]

so... knowing the difference between good and evil was/is not what god wants for us

I wouldn't say that.

 

[averageJOE]

According the the myth Jesus never died at all. He cheated death and was brought back to life. In other words, it wasn't a sacrifice at all. More like Jesus had a bad day.