Why did Jesus Die for us?

[Dan4reason]

This is dan4reason and I want to start a discussion on the reason for Jesus' death and his plan for humanity. We will be debating over what the bible says about Jesus' plan and if that is reasonable.

I personally find it illogical to think that we are somehow in need of salvation because we are not perfect, especially when God was the one who made us in the first place. I also find it illogical that our sins are suddenly forgiven when an innocent person chooses to suffer for them. It makes no sense to me. Can anyone explain?

 

[dogsgod]

It absolves us of responsibilities, do you have a problem with that?

 

[Dan4reason]

It absolves us of responsibilities, do you have a problem with that?

I do disagree with this sort of justice. Could you describe how Jesus's death absolves people of their responsibilities?

If I were a murderer and I were about to be punished with death for my crimes, would it be just for my mother to volunteer to die for me? I think not.

 

[Justice & Peace]

----You can search useful accurate websites about different beliefs on this subject, Well though i had copied a few links down, but this thing wont let me sorry. But this is more of my views on Salvation and Jesus meaning that in, Islam my belief, One Cannot Die For One's Sins the only Means of Salvation is through Repentence to God (Allah in Arabic meaning "One God").





For a Muslim, the purpose of life is to live in a way that is pleasing to Allah so that one may gain Paradise. It is believed that at puberty, an account of each person's deeds is opened, and this will be used at the Day of Judgment to determine his eternal fate. The Qur'an also suggests a doctrine of divine predestination.
The Muslim doctrine of salvation is that unbelievers (kuffar, literally "those who are ungrateful") and sinners will be condemned, but genuine repentance results in Allah's forgiveness and entrance into Paradise upon death.
The Qur'an teaches the necessity of both faith and good works for salvation:

He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light: and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers. (33:43)

In the case of those who say, "Our Lord is Allah," and, further, stand straight and steadfast, the angels descend on them (from time to time): "Fear ye not!" (they suggest), "Nor grieve! but receive the Glad Tidings of the Garden (of Bliss), that which ye were promised!" (41:30)
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[Mister_T]

***MOD POST***

Thread moved to Religious Debates.
​

 

[Herr Heinrich]

It absolves us of responsibilities, do you have a problem with that?

So what you are saying is that he is a bad parent who doesn't know how to let his kids learn from their mistakes?

 

[Faithfreedom]

This is dan4reason and I want to start a discussion on the reason for Jesus' death and his plan for humanity. We will be debating over what the bible says about Jesus' plan and if that is reasonable.

When Adam & Eve (and with them, all of humanity) fell from grace, God set up a rescue plan. Genesis: Chapter: somewhere, Verse: somewhere, "You (Satan) will strike his (Jesus's and the church's) heel (ie non-fatal blow) whilst he (Jesus and the church) will strike your head (ie a fatal blow to Satan and his church)" (Italics is mine, and quotes are not ad-verbatim).

So my friend, that was the first prophecy. That is why Jesus had to die. That is God's plan to rescue humanity. "Is that reasonable?" Do you have a better way?

I personally find it illogical to think that we are somehow in need of salvation because we are not perfect, especially when God was the one who made us in the first place.

God made us perfect. We did not have to grow old and die. We don't need the evil side of our nature. You don't think we need to be saved from all this? God didn't make us like this (with a fallen nature) you know.

I also find it illogical that our sins are suddenly forgiven when an innocent person chooses to suffer for them. It makes no sense to me. Can anyone explain?

God is love - yes, but he is also just. God cannot just wave his hand and forgive our sins.His is also a God of Justice. The penalty for sin is death. This is God's justice - you can choose not to accept it. As for me, i realise that God's mind is higher than my mind and his ways are higher than my ways. I can only comprehend it in a small way.

If I were a murderer and I were about to be punished with death for my crimes, would it be just for my mother to volunteer to die for me? I think not.

Human justice requires each criminal to pay for their own crimes.
Even God says, we will all reap what we sow (also in many other places in the bible)

Jesus's sacrifice for us is a one off deal.
Do you question God's justice? (try reading Job and his 3(4?) friends(?)

cheers - happy debating/discussing

 

[Dan4reason]

First off, thank you for this post, and I will love discussing this topic with you. It has also weighed heavily on my mind and I would love explore it.

When Adam & Eve (and with them, all of humanity) fell from grace, God set up a rescue plan. Genesis: Chapter: somewhere, Verse: somewhere, "You (Satan) will strike his (Jesus's and the church's) heel (ie non-fatal blow) whilst he (Jesus and the church) will strike your head (ie a fatal blow to Satan and his church)" (Italics is mine, and quotes are not ad-verbatim).

I didn't know that Satan had a church. If Adam and Eve fell from grace, why didn't God just forgive them because they were innocent when they ate of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil? Couldn't he have reversed the effects of the fruit? Why put the tree there in the first place? This story doesn't make sense to me.

So my friend, that was the first prophecy. That is why Jesus had to die. That is God's plan to rescue humanity. "Is that reasonable?" Do you have a better way?

The sin that was commited was by Adam and Eve. It makes no sense to condemn all humanity. Even if humanity needed to be rescued how does God letting himself be unjustly killed make everyone forgiven. Why doesn't he just forgive everyone?

God made us perfect. We did not have to grow old and die. We don't need the evil side of our nature. You don't think we need to be saved from all this? God didn't make us like this (with a fallen nature) you know.

Our bodies were perfect before the fall, but that does not means our minds are perfect. Adam and Eve sure were not mentally perfect because they had no knowledge of good and evil, and they disobeyed God even when innocent.

God is love - yes, but he is also just. God cannot just wave his hand and forgive our sins.His is also a God of Justice. The penalty for sin is death. This is God's justice - you can choose not to accept it. As for me, i realise that God's mind is higher than my mind and his ways are higher than my ways. I can only comprehend it in a small way.

That does not have a lot of substance. Acually, after he died for us, he just simply did forgive us for our sins. If God is such a perfectionist, why didn't God just make us morally perfect like him? Why is the penalty of sin death? Death does not happen because of sin but because of the breakdown of the body.

Human justice requires each criminal to pay for their own crimes.
Even God says, we will all reap what we sow (also in many other places in the bible)

Jesus's sacrifice for us is a one off deal.
Do you question God's justice? (try reading Job and his 3(4?) friends(?)

cheers - happy debating/discussing

I do question God's justice. If God is so abhorent of people who are not perfect like him, I do not see what having himself unjustly killed will do about this. We are still sinners.

 

[Thief]

This is dan4reason and I want to start a discussion on the reason for Jesus' death and his plan for humanity. We will be debating over what the bible says about Jesus' plan and if that is reasonable.

I personally find it illogical to think that we are somehow in need of salvation because we are not perfect, especially when God was the one who made us in the first place. I also find it illogical that our sins are suddenly forgiven when an innocent person chooses to suffer for them. It makes no sense to me. Can anyone explain?

It's a misconception.
For another thread I wrote this...moments ago.
to explain why one man's death is his own.

"No really....everyone dies....

What carries over is your soul.
The soul is part what you think and part what feel.

The parables are stories designed to refocus and redirect the manner
of thought and feeling you act upon.

Doing unto others as you would have them do unto you.....
puts you in control."

The Carpenter dying on the cross...and your sins disappear?...no.

You are still responsible for what you say and do....
and why you did so.

 

[Dan4reason]

What carries over is your soul.
The soul is part what you think and part what feel.

There is no evidence for a soul so I do not see why you are using to it try to convince me. We think and feel because of neurons and proteins. These have a strong genetic basis.

The Carpenter dying on the cross...and your sins disappear?...no.

Why not?

You are still responsible for what you say and do....
and why you did so.

What is the point with Jesus dying for us then? No person should punish me for doing something if I am not agressing against others.

 

[Midnight Pete]

We will be debating over what the bible says about Jesus' plan and if that is reasonable.

It doesn't revolve around what you think is reasonable. Arrogance!

 

[Dan4reason]

It doesn't revolve around what you think is reasonable. Arrogance!

My belief in this idea revolves around whether it is reasonable. The idea must be rational and have evidence for me to believe it. You may believe it without reason if you want but that is your business.

 

[Thief]

There is no evidence for a soul so I do not see why you are using to it try to convince me. We think and feel because of neurons and proteins. These have a strong genetic basis.

If you have no belief in life after death?....why this thread?

Why not?

The concept of scapegoating won't work.
A bygone practice performed by Moses.

What is the point with Jesus dying for us then? No person should punish me for doing something if I am not agressing against others.

I agree His death was not the saving grace.

And life after death, does seem to have 'more to offer'?
If not...then again...why this thread?

 

[Midnight Pete]

Okay, Dan.

I'll stop short of using the Bible as something to beat you with.

 

[Dan4reason]

I agree His death was not the saving grace.

And life after death, does seem to have 'more to offer'?
If not...then again...why this thread?

Matthew 20
Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— 28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

John 10
14"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Galatians 3
10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."[c] 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."[d] 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."[e] 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."[f] 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 15
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

As you can see, the bible clearly says that Christ died for our sins. Do you disagree with its philosophy?

 

[Dan4reason]

Okay, Dan.

I'll stop short of using the Bible as something to beat you with.

So what are your arguments?

 

[Thief]

Matthew 20
Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— 28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

John 10
14"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Galatians 3
10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."[c] 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."[d] 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."[e] 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."[f] 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 15
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

As you can see, the bible clearly says that Christ died for our sins. Do you disagree with its philosophy?

Yes...(rogue theologian).

Jesus didn't die for our sins.
He died because of them.
He pointed out...by His parables...how people need to redirect their motivations.

The pharisees took offense and sought to have Him dead.
They succeeded.

Look to the old testament and you will find an occasion wherein
Moses would take the sins of a man and place them unto a scapegoat.
The animal was than led away to die....the sin died with him.

The testimony you quoted holds to that practice.
It is a false practice.

In all fairness though....
If I might die in the effort to redirect how you live....
And you are then able to transcend into the next life....

Then I have saved you.

 

[Dan4reason]

Yes...(rogue theologian).

Jesus didn't die for our sins.
He died because of them.
He pointed out...by His parables...how people need to redirect their motivations.

The pharisees took offense and sought to have Him dead.
They succeeded.

Look to the old testament and you will find an occasion wherein
Moses would take the sins of a man and place them unto a scapegoat.
The animal was than led away to die....the sin died with him.

The testimony you quoted holds to that practice.
It is a false practice.

In all fairness though....
If I might die in the effort to redirect how you live....
And you are then able to transcend into the next life....

Then I have saved you.

The bible clearly says that Jesus died FOR our sins not because of them. You are flat out ignoring the evidence I am providing. Here are more verses.

Isaiah 53

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

John 3
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

The bible is very clear that Jesus's death atoned for our sins. It cannot be any more clear.

 

[Thief]

The bible clearly says that Jesus died FOR our sins not because of them. You are flat out ignoring the evidence I am providing. Here are more verses.

Isaiah 53

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

And no....He was not silent.

John 3
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

By His teachings yeah.

The bible is very clear that Jesus's death atoned for our sins. It cannot be any more clear.

And you are given to the word as written.....rather than seeking it's meaning and application.

As I said before....if I stand and say what you would not...in the face of authority.....

Authority will do me in.
Having said what you would not...for fear of reprisal and shunning....
Have I not taken your place?

Perhaps we can make an argument for scapegoating.

Still, your words are your words....yours deeds are your deeds.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
It is fair warning.

It will be done unto you as you did unto others.

If you fall upon this stone you will break.
If this stone falls upon you...it will grind you to powder.

 

[Faithfreedom]

First off, thank you for this post, and I will love discussing this topic with you. It has also weighed heavily on my mind and I would love explore it.

You are welcome, mate.

I didn't know that Satan had a church.

Genesis Ch.3:15 I will put enimity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed;
Satan's church is not a building. It is all those who belong to him. Fallen angels who sided with him and those who listen and obey Satan or/and his demons in their hearts are part of his church ie. his "seed".

If Adam and Eve fell from grace, why didn't God just forgive them because they were innocent when they ate of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil?

God created them perfect in every way - in body, mind, and soul. He also gave them free choice. They were free agents. They knew full well what they were doing. Satan told them that they would become like God after eating the forbidden fruit. Satan told them that God lied to them. That they certainly would not die if they ate the fruit. Satan was intimiting that God did not have their best interest at heart. That God was keeping something good from them. That God did not want them to become like him. Satan was suggesting to them that when their eyes were open and they know the difference between good and evil, then they will be able to govern themselves. Then they will not need God's governanace/control. They chose to believe and obey Satan.

They have committed the first sin. God can't just forgive them because God is also a god of justice. He did warn them of the consequences. To forgive them just like that would be to make himself out to be a liar. And God does not lie. Besides tons of angels were probably watching to see what God would do about it.

Couldn't he have reversed the effects of the fruit?

To reverse the effects of the fruit would be to make himself out to be a liar.

Why put the tree there in the first place? This story doesn't make sense to me

If the tree is not there, Satan can acuse God of being afraid and that his creations are not perfect. And that Adam & Eve did not really have free choice at all. In fact, Satan can say that they have zero choice but have to choose to obey God. Satan, you will find throughout the bible, is a great acuser.

The sin that was commited was by Adam and Eve. It makes no sense to condemn all humanity.

Adam & Eve's DNA degenerated. That was one of the consequences of the original sin. We are children with a congentinal/inherited disease called Death. God did not condemn all humanity; our first parents did that by eating of the fruit.

Even if humanity needed to be rescued how does God letting himself be unjustly killed make everyone forgiven. Why doesn't he just forgive everyone?

Yes, humanity needed to be rescued. No, God did not let himself be killed. Jesus is NOT God. Col 1:15 to 16 "He (Jesus) is the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities, all things were created by him and for him."

Jesus is a creation. Therefore Jesus is NOT God. (but God has given him so much power that Jesus seems to us like a mighty god (not almighty though).
God created him first before anything else. ("the firstborn over all creation")
Hence Jesus is also referred to as "the only begotton Son of God". That is to say, Jesus was the only one that God personally created with his own hands, so to speak. Nothing else has that honor. After being created, Jesus personally created everything else that was on God's mind (ie "by him all things were created"). Yes, by all things, i mean that even time itself was created by Jesus according to the will of God his father/creator.

Adam, a perfect creation sinned and with it sin and death came into the world.
An sacrifice of equal value is needed to atone for that sin and reverse all its consequences. Only then can we be forgiven. God cannot just forgive us because he is also a God of Justice.

Our bodies were perfect before the fall, but that does not means our minds are perfect. Adam and Eve sure were not mentally perfect because they had no knowledge of good and evil, and they disobeyed God even when innocent.

No, Adam & Eve were perfect in body, mind and spirit. Yes, they had no knowledge of good and evil. But even then, as innocents, they could have chose not to obey Satan. Eg. Even most kids obey their parents and chose not to talk to strangers.

That does not have a lot of substance. Acually, after he died for us, he just simply did forgive us for our sins.

When Jesus paid the ransom price for us, then we were redeemed from our sins.

If God is such a perfectionist, why didn't God just make us morally perfect like him?

I believe Adam and Eve were morally perfect. I am only guessing at why they chose to sin. Maybe Adam partook of the fruit because he knew Eve would be cast out and die and he wanted to be with her? I don't know. But God showed us that we can be morally perfect when he sent Jesus in human form to be an example for us to follow. Thanks for this question. I would have to think more on it.

Why is the penalty of sin death? Death does not happen because of sin but because of the breakdown of the body.

The penalty for sin is death because God is holy. No sin can come before his presence. And without God, nothing (no life) can be sustained. Truly, man does not have to die. Why should the body breakdown? Interesting questions abound. Why can't every cell of our body replicate itself? Why can salamanders regrow their limbs, or a lizard its tail, or a sponge itself? Every cell in our bodies have telomers in their DNA. They keep track of how many times a cell replicate. Every time a cell replicate, its telomers get shorter. When it gets too short, the cell self-destructs - apoptasise. Cancer cells on the other hand, are our very own cells which have their "Stop Replicating" button switched off. Their telomers are also switched off. Cancer cells are immortal. As long as they have food, they keep on replicating. Why can't our normal cells also be like that - except with their replication under control?
That is what the science of Jerriatics (i'm sure i've got the spelling wrong) is all about. Adam & Eve were perfect; so maybe every cell of theirs can replicate forever. So i believe (on faith) that man does not have to die.

I do question God's justice.

Its ok to question God's justice. Its not a sin. Habbakuk also questioned God's justice.

If God is so abhorent of people who are not perfect like him, I do not see what having himself unjustly killed will do about this. We are still sinners.

God is not abhorent of people who are not perfect. He loves you, mate. Why else would he send Jesus to die if he didn't love us? Its just his nature as a holy God that no sin can come before him. He loves us even while we are yet sinners.

Hopes it helps, mate.

Cheers.