You are far more familiar with the bible and Christianity so correct me is I mischaracterize Christian doctrine and your beliefs.
If the tree is not there, Satan can acuse God of being afraid and that his creations are not perfect. And that Adam & Eve did not really have free choice at all. In fact, Satan can say that they have zero choice but have to choose to obey God. Satan, you will find throughout the bible, is a great acuser.
So God was giving Adam and Eve the choice to commit evil by making the tree. That makes sense.
God created them perfect in every way - in body, mind, and soul. He also gave them free choice. They were free agents. They knew full well what they were doing.
Adam & Eve were perfect in body, mind and spirit. Yes, they had no knowledge of good and evil. But even then, as innocents, they could have chose not to obey Satan. Eg. Even most kids obey their parents and chose not to talk to strangers.
If Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil, then they did not know full well what they were doing. They had no ability to make choices between right and wrong. You are right that they had the ability to make their own choices though.
I doubt that Adam and Eve can be mentally perfect if they did not have the rational, emotional, and intuitive capacity to decide between right and wrong. That seems like a mental handicap.
Kids actually do choose between good and evil but they do have an emotional tendency to follow their parents. However, they often disobey their parents. I would never even think of testing them with forbidden fruit because they have no capacity to judge. This also goes for Adam and Eve.
Satan told them that they would become like God after eating the forbidden fruit. Satan told them that God lied to them. That they certainly would not die if they ate the fruit. Satan was intimiting that God did not have their best interest at heart. That God was keeping something good from them. That God did not want them to become like him. Satan was suggesting to them that when their eyes were open and they know the difference between good and evil, then they will be able to govern themselves. Then they will not need God's governanace/control. They chose to believe and obey Satan.
I believe Adam and Eve were morally perfect. I am only guessing at why they chose to sin. Maybe Adam partook of the fruit because he knew Eve would be cast out and die and he wanted to be with her? I don't know. But God showed us that we can be morally perfect when he sent Jesus in human form to be an example for us to follow. Thanks for this question. I would have to think more on it.
If Adam and Eve were perfect, then they would never sin. By this reasoning, Adam and Eve both would never have rebelled against their creator. If Adam was perfect and his choice to eat the fruit was a sin, he would never had done it. He made the wrong choice by bowing to Eve's peer pressure and so if falable.
They have committed the first sin. God can't just forgive them because God is also a god of justice. He did warn them of the consequences. To forgive them just like that would be to make himself out to be a liar. And God does not lie. Besides tons of angels were probably watching to see what God would do about it.
Aside from the fact that Adam and Eve had no way of judging between good and evil this reasoning mostly makes sense. God has to keep his word, you are right. Of course my issue is that God tested people who were not able to choose between good and evil.
My next issue is that God took away Adam and Eve's spiritual perfection. I do not remember that being one of the consequences. Why would God change his creations to make them carnal if he abhores sin?
Adam & Eve's DNA degenerated. That was one of the consequences of the original sin. We are children with a congentinal/inherited disease called Death. God did not condemn all humanity; our first parents did that by eating of the fruit.
Why did God allow their punishment to be passed on to the rest of us? Why did he make the rest of us carnal? It is unjust that we should have to be punished for Adam's transgression through genetic transfer. God should have lifted that curse off of their descendents.
Yes, humanity needed to be rescued. No, God did not let himself be killed. Jesus is NOT God. Col 1:15 to 16 "He (Jesus) is the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities, all things were created by him and for him."
Jesus is a creation. Therefore Jesus is NOT God. (but God has given him so much power that Jesus seems to us like a mighty god (not almighty though).
God created him first before anything else. ("the firstborn over all creation")
Hence Jesus is also referred to as "the only begotton Son of God". That is to say, Jesus was the only one that God personally created with his own hands, so to speak. Nothing else has that honor. After being created, Jesus personally created everything else that was on God's mind (ie "by him all things were created"). Yes, by all things, i mean that even time itself was created by Jesus according to the will of God his father/creator.
That sounds reasonable. For the purpose of this discussion, I will assume that Jesus and God are two different people.
The penalty for sin is death because God is holy. No sin can come before his presence.
Are you saying that God will not live with people who are imperfect? I will suggest to him that he simply stop making imperfect people. And what is the point with eternally torturing people who are sinners and did not accept him when they lived on earth? That seems to go a little farther than just not allowing them to come into his presence.
Is it good to be holy in the way God is? Shouldn't it be reasonable that he accept people who are not completely perfect yet try to be, especially if he loves them? The holiness part does not make sense.
God is not abhorent of people who are not perfect. He loves you, mate. Why else would he send Jesus to die if he didn't love us? Its just his nature as a holy God that no sin can come before him. He loves us even while we are yet sinners.
That is a very positive thought. Thanks.
An sacrifice of equal value is needed to atone for that sin and reverse all its consequences. Only then can we be forgiven. God cannot just forgive us because he is also a God of Justice.
When Jesus paid the ransom price for us, then we were redeemed from our sins.
I do understand that when you take something from somebody, you should give it back. However, most sins are not that way (stealing) and are situations when we treat others wrong, or conduct our personal lives incorrectly. The best way to atone for most of these sins is to apologise and to do something for the person to show that you are serious. I do not see a need to make a sacrifice for every sin you made.
Further, I do not see how Jesus can do it for you. If I am the one who snapped at my wife for example, I must atone. It would not be sinsere if another person tried to atone for me because I have not changed or put a sincere effort into trying.
The "fix" for most sins is not giving a sacrifice, it is amending the damage done by apology and repentance, and most importantly, not sinning.
If a man was put on trial for murder and was condemned to death, a judge would never accept the offer of the man's mother to be executed for him. Punishing an innocent person for the crimes of a guilty person is wrong no matter if it is voluntary.
Having Jesus die for is does not solve the problem of us being sinful because it does not make us unsinful. We will still come before God as sinful beings.
Here is a better way things should have been done. God should have made perfect beings who would be too ethical to sin. If God does make sinful beings, then he should not doom us for past sins if in the future we eventually become perfect. For example, a worker is not judged by all the mistakes he has ever made, but by the performance he has now. Another suggestion is that if God insists on making inperfect beings, he should be loving to them by accepting them despite their imperfections as they are trying to become better.
I hope I do not seem overly-critical. Much of want you say makes a lot of sense and I do keep my mind open to other beliefs. I will enjoy reading debating further with you.
