Why did Jesus Die for us?

[Pegg]

This is dan4reason and I want to start a discussion on the reason for Jesus' death and his plan for humanity. We will be debating over what the bible says about Jesus' plan and if that is reasonable.

I personally find it illogical to think that we are somehow in need of salvation because we are not perfect, especially when God was the one who made us in the first place. I also find it illogical that our sins are suddenly forgiven when an innocent person chooses to suffer for them. It makes no sense to me. Can anyone explain?

Think of imperfection as a debt. When Adam sinned by disobeying God, he suffered the consequences of that disobedience. He was told the consequences beforehand "if you eat from the tree of knowledge you shall surely die"
The debt he passed onto us was imperfection and death. “just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned,”

death was the consequence for failing to live up to Gods requirement and we are all dieing because of something we did not do. The only way we can each repay that debt of sin is to die. "for the wages sin pays is death..." When we die, we repay the debt and all our sins are forgiven "For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin" but its not much good to us to be forgiven AFTER we die is it.

That is what Jesus death was for. He was a perfect man who did not have the debt of sin hanging over him. He could have lived forever but he chose to repay our debt for us...he gave his own perfect life, in exchange of our sinful life to pay our debt to God."But he was being pierced for our transgression; he was being crushed for our errors. The chastisement meant for our peace was upon him, and because of his wounds there has been a healing for us"

God has accepted Jesus sacrifice which means that God will grant us forgiveness BEFORE we die. He will completely overlook all of our sins in order to give us the opportunity to live forever...not in heaven but right here on earth.

 

[Dan4reason]

Hi Dan,

Lets try a different tack before I pick up where i left off.

Have you settled within youself, the big questions like, How did life began? Why am i here? Is there life after death? Is there a God?

If you already have satisfying answers to the above questions, then are you asking, "Why did Jesus Die for us?" just to know what Christians think?

Cheers.

I am not entirely sure how life began. Abiogenesis seems to be a reasonable idea and there are many hypotheses, however we do not have any real PROOF of how life began. I know partially why I am here. I am here because my parents had sex to say it bluntly. Of course there could be more to the story. There probably is no life after death because the brain shuts down when a person dies and so does the body. There is no evidence that anything could live on. Of course there might just be more to the story. There may even be a God. However, there is not a shred of evidence for His existence so I do not believe in Him.

I am asking these questions because I want to learn about the real basis for Christianity and learn if there really is one. I have asked many questions to may people including atheists, Christians, and muslims. Atheists have answered them best so far. I want to learn about different ideas about the purpose of life and to find if there really is one.

 

[alexandriac]

Jesus died for us so we could have a chance to survive and life for eternity.

 

[waitasec]

Jesus died for us so we could have a chance to survive and life for eternity.

why would anyone want to live for an eternity?

i've been around for 44 yrs, the last 20 seems like a lifetime.
i cannot imagine existing for an eternity... personally, i would rather sleep when all is said and done because all my loved ones wouldn't be around. that and i would be very tired.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

So what is the way we do this?

...
You have a Bible, yes? Read it. I can't answer such a general question.

 

[Herr Heinrich]

Then I am sorry.

Now I am speaking in jest. Of course I didn't mean it.

 

[Herr Heinrich]

...and suddenly, that cat doesn't seem so cute anymore.

He eats souls. How is that cute?

 

[Faithfreedom]

He eats souls. How is that cute?

Little did Faithfreedom knew what he was letting himself in for.
Seeking to play with a kitten, he was suddenly confronted by a Cat from Hell!!! :run:

 

[Faithfreedom]

I am not entirely sure how life began. Abiogenesis seems to be a reasonable idea and there are many hypotheses, however we do not have any real PROOF of how life began. I know partially why I am here. I am here because my parents had sex to say it bluntly. Of course there could be more to the story. There probably is no life after death because the brain shuts down when a person dies and so does the body. There is no evidence that anything could live on. Of course there might just be more to the story. There may even be a God. However, there is not a shred of evidence for His existence so I do not believe in Him.

I am asking these questions because I want to learn about the real basis for Christianity and learn if there really is one. I have asked many questions to may people including atheists, Christians, and muslims. Atheists have answered them best so far. I want to learn about different ideas about the purpose of life and to find if there really is one.

We are here because our parents were delegated the power (and the responsibility) to procreate. (reminds me of Spiderman's Uncle Ben, "With great power comes great responsibilities )

Imagine how tiring it would be (not elegant too) if Jesus had to create each and everyone of us from the ground up. So God delegated to us the power to pro-create.

So now that we are here, lets deal with the here and now. As Spock said, "Live long and prosper". To be a decent human being seems like a good goal/purpose. Can't go far wrong doing that whilst we explore the question of religion.

I believe that there is no life after death if Jesus does not raise us from the grave.
I believe that there is no such thing as an imortal soul that lives on after out physical body is dead. The basis for my beliefs is from the bible. I'm not a main stream christian. I lean towards the Jehovah Witness teachings but i am not a JW. I cannot accept their prohibition regarding blood transfusion. But for a very long time, i was a main stream christian. After studying the bible with a JW on what the bible really teaches, i came to realise that there was no such thing as Trnity, eternal firy hell, and immortal soul.

The punishment for sin is death. Not eternal firy hell.
After we die, our sins have been fully paid for. To be in hell is to have overpaid the going price.
No one can bear to torture his worse enemy forever. He may have liked it in the begining but sooner or later he will have pity on the poor soul. If we cannot do that to our worse enemy, can we do that to our child? No way right? If we, earthly fathers cannot bear to do that to our child, how much more so our Heavenly Father!

Hell is misinterperted from the word Jesus used - Gehenna.
Gehenna is the rubbish dump just outside of Jeruselam where people throw their rubbish. Methane gas build up from rotting rubbish will spontenously ignite. Thus that place seems to be eternally on fire. Corpse of criminals and those deemed unworthy a proper burial were dumpped there too. So corpse were burning - not live people.

Those who are truly evil like say Hitler, Ghengis Khan, etc may not even be resurected by God. Those who led a good life but did not accept jesus as their saviour would be given another chance to do it. This would be in the 1000 yr reign of Jesus after his second comming.

I hope you feel lighter after this post

Cheers my friend

 

[Thief]

Jesus taught us how to 'absolve' our 'sins'. He did not take them away.

By 'absolve'...you mean 'forgive'?

Jesus did take away sin.....as He lived....as He spoke.
The pharisees didn't like it.
They thought such was their territory...not His.

So now we enter that actual topic....finally.

I say it was not His death on the cross that saved us.

It was His life and teaching....the parables.

These brief stories demonstrate how to live and what to expect if you do 'something' else.

And forgiving others is a practice.
Well kept...it will serve to your favor..... later on.

 

[Dan4reason]

Think of imperfection as a debt. When Adam sinned by disobeying God, he suffered the consequences of that disobedience. He was told the consequences beforehand "if you eat from the tree of knowledge you shall surely die"
The debt he passed onto us was imperfection and death. “just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned,”

death was the consequence for failing to live up to Gods requirement and we are all dieing because of something we did not do. The only way we can each repay that debt of sin is to die. "for the wages sin pays is death..." When we die, we repay the debt and all our sins are forgiven "For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin" but its not much good to us to be forgiven AFTER we die is it.

That is what Jesus death was for. He was a perfect man who did not have the debt of sin hanging over him. He could have lived forever but he chose to repay our debt for us...he gave his own perfect life, in exchange of our sinful life to pay our debt to God."But he was being pierced for our transgression; he was being crushed for our errors. The chastisement meant for our peace was upon him, and because of his wounds there has been a healing for us"

God has accepted Jesus sacrifice which means that God will grant us forgiveness BEFORE we die. He will completely overlook all of our sins in order to give us the opportunity to live forever...not in heaven but right here on earth.

Sin is not like owing money at all. First, when you sin, you "owe" to those you sinned against. Usually an apology or making up for the sin is enough. The biggest remedy for sin is to stop sinning. You do not "owe" anything to God, but you do to those you sin against. Only they can judge you. When you sin against a person, someone else cannot take the punishment in your place if your sin is great enough. An example of this is that a murderer's mother cannot be put to death for him even if she volunteered. Wrong doing is something YOU should pay for.

Owing money is far more impersonal and the person you owe money to does not care how you get the money, just as long as you deliver. Money from one person is not any different than money from another. This is in contrast to the fact that an act of repentance from one person is very different than from another.

Another problem is that it is unjust for is to be cursed along with Adam and Eve. We were not the ones who sinned in the garden of eden.

Why do you think the wages of sin is death? I think that this is a little harsh. Why can't God put up with sinners if he both created and loved them? Does Jesus's sacrifice aleviate this problem?

 

[Dan4reason]

Jesus died for us so we could have a chance to survive and life for eternity.

Why can't we just live for eternity without his sacrifice? What need do we have for it?

 

[Dan4reason]

...
You have a Bible, yes? Read it. I can't answer such a general question.

If you refuse to clarify your position and answer my arguments, our debate cannot go on. Please explain you position a little better.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

If you refuse to clarify your position and answer my arguments, our debate cannot go on. Please explain you position a little better.

You asked 'how do we do this'. There's not a generic way to look at this concept, so you're going to need to ask more specific questions if you want to understand my side of this. Otherwise we won't have a debate(which wasn't my intention so I'm okay with that).

 

[Pegg]

Sin is not like owing money at all. First, when you sin, you "owe" to those you sinned against...You do not "owe" anything to God, but you do to those you sin against.

Adam sinned against God and God required that he give back the life that God had given him.
Adam paid for his sin against God with his life. So do we because we also sin against God by not living up to his laws and standards we pay with our life.

Another problem is that it is unjust for is to be cursed along with Adam and Eve. We were not the ones who sinned in the garden of eden.

This is true...but an imperfect man cannot produce a perfect man. We inherited his imperfect condition and that condition meant that we could not live up to Gods standards.

Thats the reason why God provided us with his son Jesus as a ransom...Jesus life in exchange for ours.

Why do you think the wages of sin is death? I think that this is a little harsh. Why can't God put up with sinners if he both created and loved them?

when Adam disobeyed God, he came out from under Gods authority. What he didnt realize was that he was completely dependent upon God for his ongoing existence...his life was powered by Gods spirit and without that spirit, his life would not continue. By removing himself from God through disobedience, Adam unplugged himself from his source of life. To illustrate this point, imagine being on a ship in the middle of the ocean, the captain warns you that there is no lifesaving equipment, so if you fall in the water they cannot save you. But you dont listen and you lean too far over the side and fall in the water. The ship keeps sailing on, and you are left to drown because they have nothing with which to pull you out. That is what Adam did, he didnt listen to the captains warning and fell out of the boat so to speak and eventually died in the water.

Psalm 36:9 "For with you is the source of life"
Job 33:4 "God’s own spirit made me, And the Almighty’s own breath proceeded to bring me to life"

Does Jesus sacrifice alleviate this problem?

God knew that the consequences of death would flow onto Adams children, so right there in the Garden he announced a means of saving the children of Adam from death. He said he would send a 'seed' to replace Adam. Adam is our original father biologically which is why we inherit death from him. But through the 'seed' we can obtain life because that 'seed' (Jesus) would become our 'spiritual father' and by our faith in him we can come back to God and once again be united with him and through that unification he will grant us life.

Jesus said at John 6:63. “It is the spirit that is life-giving; the flesh is of no use at all. The sayings that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.”

1Cor 15:21-22 "For since death is through a man, resurrection of the dead is also through a man. For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.

1Cor 15:45 "It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam (Jesus) became a life-giving spirit"

So to answer your question, Yes. Jesus sacrifice has paved the way for all mankind to return to perfect life....that is to take place in the near future.

​

 

[waitasec]

Adam sinned against God and God required that he give back the life that God had given him.
Adam paid for his sin against God with his life. So do we because we also sin against God by not living up to his laws and standards we pay with out life.


This is true...but an imperfect man cannot produce a perfect man. We inherited his imperfect condition and that condition meant that we could not live up to Gods standards.

Thats the reason why God provided us with his son Jesus as a ransom...Jesus life in exchange for ours.

what i understand here is that god is basically saying, "you will never be good enough, no matter how hard you try. the only way you are good enough for me is if i live vicariously in you"
can you imagine saying that to your own child...

 

[Corkscrew]

God I pray that you are not anything like the individual described in man’s bible.

 

[Pegg]

what i understand here is that god is basically saying, "you will never be good enough, no matter how hard you try. the only way you are good enough for me is if i live vicariously in you"
can you imagine saying that to your own child...

We can be good enough because being made in Gods image means we can 'reflect' that image. Jesus was able to reflect Gods image so perfectly it could be said that seeing Jesus was like seeing God. Even as imperfect people we can see Gods qualities in us....when you identify a person whom you describe as 'good' or 'loving' or very 'kind'...these are all aspects of Gods personality and we all have a degree of these good qualities in us.
Adam reflected Gods image perfectly up until the day he sinned but we cannot reflect Gods image perfectly because of being born imperfect.

We certainly can be good enough because God has not abandoned us....but not until our imperfections are gone. Removing those imperfections is all part of Gods plan and is still progressing.

 

[waitasec]

We can be good enough because being made in Gods image means we can 'reflect' that image. Jesus was able to reflect Gods image so perfectly it could be said that seeing Jesus was like seeing God. Even as imperfect people we can see Gods qualities in us....when you identify a person whom you describe as 'good' or 'loving' or very 'kind'...these are all aspects of Gods personality and we all have a degree of these good qualities in us.
Adam reflected Gods image perfectly up until the day he sinned but we cannot reflect Gods image perfectly because of being born imperfect.

We certainly can be good enough because God has not abandoned us....but not until our imperfections are gone. Removing those imperfections is all part of Gods plan and is still progressing.

can you tell your own child, "you can be good enough for me if you live your life the way i want you to"

 

[strikeviperMKII]

We can be good enough because being made in Gods image means we can 'reflect' that image. Jesus was able to reflect Gods image so perfectly it could be said that seeing Jesus was like seeing God. Even as imperfect people we can see Gods qualities in us....when you identify a person whom you describe as 'good' or 'loving' or very 'kind'...these are all aspects of Gods personality and we all have a degree of these good qualities in us.

I'm with you until here...then things get a little too much into the 'atonement theory'.

Adam reflected Gods image perfectly up until the day he sinned but we cannot reflect Gods image perfectly because of being born imperfect.

We certainly can be good enough because God has not abandoned us....but not until our imperfections are gone. Removing those imperfections is all part of Gods plan and is still progressing.

How about instead of 'removing' our imperfections (which you have already said was impossible) we learn what they are, and understand why they are there. The idea of being 'not good enough' is not because we are somehow born with 'sin', but merely telling us we won't get all of our failings, even if we look our entire lives. Even the ones we find will still pop out every now and then.
Imperfect doesn't mean 'not good enough until you accept Jesus, who died for you so your sins could be washed away', but instead is a form of encouragement. You won't fix everything about you that's wrong, but in fixing even one tiny thing, even for the briefest of seconds, you'll gain everything. In that second, you become a perfect reflection of God, which really is just a reflection of you. In essence, you and God become one, yet two at the same time. And it is only through our innate imperfection that this happens.