Why did Jesus Die for us?

[Volgin]

Jesus is not Dead, Almighty Allah replaced Jesus by a man of the same being as Jesus. Jesus has been taken up alive, he will return and will fight for Islam against the Anti-muslims. I am not quite sure anout the place where he will come. First he will perform his prayer and then he will rule for some years. After that there will be the final battle between truth and falsehood and truth(ISLAM) will win it. This is true. If you want to confirm it you can go through the Holy Quran. The Holy Bible has many different versions and all have many things different but The Holy Quran is the same wherever you buy it from. It contains the real word of GOD Almighty and the who follows it will be safe on the day of judgements. Everybody please study the Holy Quran. Its amazing writing. You will feel it. May Almighty Allah bless you all the right path.

 

[Pegg]

Jesus is not Dead, Almighty Allah replaced Jesus by a man of the same being as Jesus. Jesus has been taken up alive, he will return and will fight for Islam against the Anti-muslims. I am not quite sure anout the place where he will come. First he will perform his prayer and then he will rule for some years. After that there will be the final battle between truth and falsehood and truth(ISLAM) will win it. This is true. If you want to confirm it you can go through the Holy Quran. The Holy Bible has many different versions and all have many things different but The Holy Quran is the same wherever you buy it from. It contains the real word of GOD Almighty and the who follows it will be safe on the day of judgements. Everybody please study the Holy Quran. Its amazing writing. You will feel it. May Almighty Allah bless you all the right path.

how many languages is Quran available in?

 

[Danmac]

how many languages is Quran available in?

Pretty sneaky

 

[strikeviperMKII]

how many languages is Quran available in?

Technically, the Quran is only in one language. Any translation of the Quran is not the Quran. That's what Muslims believe anyway. The Quran is their 'miracle' (like Jesus changing water to wine) so any change to it, including language, makes the Quran not the Quran anymore.

 

[waitasec]

Technically, the Quran is only in one language. Any translation of the Quran is not the Quran. That's what Muslims believe anyway. The Quran is their 'miracle' (like Jesus changing water to wine) so any change to it, including language, makes the Quran not the Quran anymore.

apparently god only speaks one language...

 

[strikeviperMKII]

apparently god only speaks one language...

Not exactly. Changing the language of the Quran is like saying that Jesus changed milk into whiskey. Generally the same, specifically not. And because specifics matter, it means the whole thing is not the same.

 

[Danmac]

Not exactly. Changing the language of the Quran is like saying that Jesus changed milk into whiskey. Generally the same, specifically not. And because specifics matter, it means the whole thing is not the same.

So how do English only speaking muslims read the quran?

 

[strikeviperMKII]

So how do English only speaking muslims read the quran?

No, they don't. Technically.

 

[Dan4reason]

The bible states that The wages of sin is death - ie eventual physical and spiritual death. For believers, this means that when we die, our sins are fully paid for. We return to dust and are conscious of nothing ie full physical and spiritual death.

I am contesting that idea because there is no need to punish every sin. Killing every sinner does not solve any problems that the sin starts and simply makes the universe more miserable.

Godly justice is unlike human justice.

In what meaningful way is there a difference? What does that have to do with the way punishment should be done?

The first Adam condemned us all to become dust eventually.
The last Adam redeems us from that dust to eternal physical and spiritual life - as per our original design and as per God's original plan for the Garden of Eden - ie Paradise.

I never saw anything about the first Adam and the last Adam in the bible. I would love to hear more about it if you don't mind.

If this were not so, it would mean that Satan had successfully frustrated God's plan (for a Paradise Earth). This would mean God would lose face. It would mean that God does not deserve the name of Jehovah because "Jehovah" means "I will prove to be what I will prove to be" ie he will prove that he will do all that he plans to do.

Where does it say that God's goal was an earthly paradise? If he really wanted one, why didn't he just make sure that Adam's descendents did not have to bear the load of the curse of Adam?

Otherwise our prayers cannot reach God. (also our guilty conscience would make us feel uneasy - for the want of a better word).

Most Christians believe that Christ listens to everyone's prayers.


I will now collect statements that you made concerning Christ's death.

God cannot resurrect anyone (because he is Justice) unless Jesus ransom them with his perfect earthly human sinless life - the last Adam.

In the meantime, while we are still physically alive, the Christian will be made spiritually alive, in that the heavy weight of sin is lifted from their hearts and soul. Thus we can approach God with a clear conscience. Jesus's blood cover our sins and so we appear sinless and can have communion with God now. We are made sinless for now in this life in that way.

You then end with this.

So Jesus's death does helps us a lot.

I do not see this the same way you do. You have not shown how Jesus's death takes care of our sins. You have not addressed any of my arguments concerning this. His death does not make us sinless and it does not give back to the victims.

 

[Pegg]

Pretty sneaky

seems logical enough to me

 

[strikeviperMKII]

So how do English only speaking muslims read the quran?

They learn Arabic. Or they can settle for the translation. Like I said, it's a technicality. Take it or leave it.

 

[outhouse]

dont spin your wheels to hard on a myth's, youll hurt your hed.

 

[Faithfreedom]

I am contesting that idea because there is no need to punish every sin. Killing every sinner does not solve any problems that the sin starts and simply makes the universe more miserable.

Eternal life can only be sustained by having a union with God. (eg. If an electric car's battery is not re-charged from an electrical source, it will eventually be drained and dead)
Even the smallest sin will make the person a Sinner.
A Sinner cannot have union with God because God's holy nature cannot abide by sin.
The Sinner's life therefore cannot be eternally sustained.
This is not a punishment; its just a consequence - Holiness and sin cannot mix; one will destroy the other.

In what meaningful way is there a difference? What does that have to do with the way punishment should be done?

What God calls justice may not be how humans like you views it. For instance, you disagree that Jesus' death can be a ransom price for all of mankind to be resurrected from the dust come Judgment Day. What you term as "punishment" is what i term as "consequence". I believe that every sinner receives the consequences for all his thoughts and deeds. With bad thoughts comes bad emotions. These bad emotions will wreck havoc on the sinners body and soul/spirit (by virtue of bad/excessive hormones coursing thru' their bodies - heart disease, mental problems, etc). Thus the sinner receives "punishment" in this life. If he/she break any legal law, then its up to human justice system to get him. If he doesn't break any legal law or if he does and manages not to get caught, then his bad hormones will get him. Also, in the hereafter, God may not resurrect him/her if God judges that they are truly wicked and are unwilling to change.

I never saw anything about the first Adam and the last Adam in the bible. I would love to hear more about it if you don't mind.

1 Corinthians 15:45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
The last Adam is Jesus Christ. Through the first Adam, the original mould that became defective and produced defective children. Through Jesus, the defective children can be resurrected back to original design in the hereafter.

Where does it say that God's goal was an earthly paradise? If he really wanted one, why didn't he just make sure that Adam's descendents did not have to bear the load of the curse of Adam?

When God created A&E and the Garden of Eden, he commanded them, Genesis 1:28 "God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
The Garden of Eden is Paradise. A&E was supposed to have godly children and spread the Garden of Eden to cover the whole earth. This was God's original plan. Also in God's original plan, was to have everyone choose to obey him willingly. To ensure that "Adam's descendents did not have to bear the load of the curse of Adam" sin would be tempering with free will. It would defeat his original plan.

Most Christians believe that Christ listens to everyone's prayers.

No, not true. Christ listens only to penitent sinners' prayers. 1 Peter 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."

You have not shown how Jesus's death takes care of our sins.

Jesus' death as per the bible, will enable those who believe in him, to be resurrected from their dust after they die to eternal life. This resurrection will happen on Judgement Day. That is how Jesus' death will take care of our sins.

You have not addressed any of my arguments concerning this. His death does not make us sinless and it does not give back to the victims.

His death makes Christians sinless here and now by covering us with with his blood so that God will see us as sinless and thus Christians have union with God and our prayers can reach him.
God has a rewind button and on Judgment Day, God will reverse all the injustice done to innocent victims. That is how he will give back and make it up to the victims. God give repeatedly give signs and demonstrates his intentions. Eg. Job was compensated double for all that he had lose. The bible says that God himself will wipe away all the tears of those resurrected.

I hope my answers are reasonable and satisfying to you.

Cheers.

 

[Volgin]

REPLY TO ALL YOU GUYS(Pegg, ):
The Holy Quran is available in many languages. Its just the matter of translation, you can translate it into any other language for better understanding. Since English is the most spoken language around the world, so you can buy it. The original language of The Holy Quran is Arabic. Its very good if you study it, understand it, and i assure that you will get solution to any problem, since it the complete source of guidance for all human beings.
Translating means to understand and write the same thing into other language. Translation is meant for understanding for those people who do not understand the Arabic language. People living in European countries and Afrca, America, mostly read it in English. They have The HOLY QURAN translated into English language. People in Pakistan who are muslims, still not everybody can understand Arabic, they learn it, study it,(translated to) language Urdu. In the same way you people can get the Holy Quran in any language, AND EACH CONTAINS THE SAME TEXT. On the judgement Day their will be only one language, i.e. Arabic, and everyone of us will be able to speak, this is the Greatness of Almighty Allah who will provide us such potential. It does not mean He cannot understand anyother language. He knows what your future. He knows what we speak, we do, before our being doing it. IT IS THE PURE WORD OF ALMIGHTY ALLAH. I HOPE YOU ALL UNDERSTAND THAT. Thanks

 

[waitasec]

REPLY TO ALL YOU GUYS(Pegg, ):
The Holy Quran is available in many languages. Its just the matter of translation, you can translate it into any other language for better understanding. Since English is the most spoken language around the world, so you can buy it. The original language of The Holy Quran is Arabic. Its very good if you study it, understand it, and i assure that you will get solution to any problem, since it the complete source of guidance for all human beings.
Translating means to understand and write the same thing into other language. Translation is meant for understanding for those people who do not understand the Arabic language. People living in European countries and Afrca, America, mostly read it in English. They have The HOLY QURAN translated into English language. People in Pakistan who are muslims, still not everybody can understand Arabic, they learn it, study it,(translated to) language Urdu. In the same way you people can get the Holy Quran in any language, AND EACH CONTAINS THE SAME TEXT. On the judgement Day their will be only one language, i.e. Arabic, and everyone of us will be able to speak, this is the Greatness of Almighty Allah who will provide us such potential. It does not mean He cannot understand anyother language. He knows what your future. He knows what we speak, we do, before our being doing it. IT IS THE PURE WORD OF ALMIGHTY ALLAH. I HOPE YOU ALL UNDERSTAND THAT. Thanks

an interesting thought, at least for me...
since these books were originally written in a certain language, culture and traditions are not easily translated. which makes me wonder, are these holy books really "holy" since many teachings do not apply to todays world?

calling a woman unclean while she's on her period, working on the sabbath is cause for capital punishment or selling your daughter as a slave, for example.

with the abrahamic religions, the culture of the time was barbaric hence the treatment of women and the condoning the ownership of slaves...
so why is it revered so holy since it obviously condones the treatment of other human beings as subhuman?

 

[Volgin]

Islam does not degrades women. If you read the Holy Quran you will find one complete Surah(chapter) on the status of Women. There is nothing written about the punishment of daughters or seling them as slaves. These were traditions made by the false belivers, i won't call them muslim. Do not look at the muslims if you want to know what Islam is, for that read the Holy Quran. Its like if someone says that a particular food is sweet, you cannot believe him/her unless you yourself taste it. Therefore the Holy Quran is a Holy Book, you can say that some of its followers are not following it properly. You read the Holy Quran, and you wil find the proof. Each and every matter of life has been discussed in it.
The Ahadith(Sayings of Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)) are all according to the Holy Quran. He was the one on which the Holy Quran was revealed, and he was the best follower of it. It is not only for the muslims but this book is for all those living today. One who will believe it and the beloved Prophet(pbuh) will enter Paradise. So finally i would say that you will have to read it, in order to clear your misconceptions.

 

[waitasec]

Islam does not degrades women. If you read the Holy Quran you will find one complete Surah(chapter) on the status of Women. There is nothing written about the punishment of daughters or seling them as slaves. These were traditions made by the false belivers, i won't call them muslim. Do not look at the muslims if you want to know what Islam is, for that read the Holy Quran. Its like if someone says that a particular food is sweet, you cannot believe him/her unless you yourself taste it. Therefore the Holy Quran is a Holy Book, you can say that some of its followers are not following it properly. You read the Holy Quran, and you wil find the proof. Each and every matter of life has been discussed in it.
The Ahadith(Sayings of Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)) are all according to the Holy Quran. He was the one on which the Holy Quran was revealed, and he was the best follower of it. It is not only for the muslims but this book is for all those living today. One who will believe it and the beloved Prophet(pbuh) will enter Paradise. So finally i would say that you will have to read it, in order to clear your misconceptions.

why then do men have more rights than women concerning divorce, for example?

Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah Hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise," (2:228)


inheritance is unequal...

Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half," (4:11).


domestic violence

As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)," (4:34).

sex slaves
"O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee" (33:50).

"..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess..." (23:6)


we are not born with equal rights...

"O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female." (2:178)
even here women are seen as less than slaves...

i don't know about you, but these passages in the quran seem a bit barbaric and "unholy". the bible and the quran are both guilty of condoning horrific acts against humanity...

 

[Volgin]

First of all i would like to advise you to read the the complete text of the Holy Quran before you quote a part of verse from it. It is just like a student starts learning from the grass root level or else he will also be confused with new terms. Understanding the Holy Quran is not an easy job, even for the muslims since it the Sacred word of Almighty Allah.
Now comming to what you have quoted:
1-[2:228] Islam does not promotes divorce.It degrades such an act.Whenever muslims are going to get married, the two are two to show show their consent on it before . This decreases the chance of divorce since both are happy to get married, even if one of them is not happy they won’t marry because this will be an alarm of later problems. That was what I said in my last post that the Holy Quran is a solution to problems,. Finally in the verse where says that men have a status over them, their it has been cleared that men have more responsibilities than women. He has to run the house, fulfill the needs of the family.
2- [4:11] Here you have quoted an incomplete verse. In the property there are more shares for the men than women. Husband is caretaker of his wife so he is given more shares so that he can run his family well. Women on the other hand when get married, same thing, their husband will take care of them so he needs money. Still Islam has set a part of property for her. Also, when a girl gets married, she is presented with many gifts from many relatives. They mostly provide her with Household items for her use, such Refrigirators, Microwave Oven, some furniture, bundle of clothings, and many more, whatever anyone can aord. Then when the couple is binded in this relationship, the boy has to pay a small amout, whatever he wishes to the bride. So all this brings justice. And never such a fight of property has occoured. In fact this verse tells us the share of property in different conditions(read the whole verse).
3- [4:34] Again you are quoting incompletely.
“Men are overseers over women because Allah has given the one more strength than
the other, and because men are required to spend their wealth for the maintenance
of women. Honorable women are, therefore, devoutly obedient and guard in the
husband’s absence what Allah requires them to guard their husband’s property and
their own honor. As to those women from whom you fear disobedience, first
admonish them, then refuse to share your bed with them, and then, if necessary,
beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further actions against them and do not
make excuses to punish them. Allah is Supremely Great and is aware of your
actions” [4:34]
This is the exact cerse and you will se that what acctually Holy Quran says. You will surely get your point cleared. No one would like to see her wife sharing her bed with some outsider. It does not straight forward calls to beat. First admonish her, then refuse to share your bed with her, then third priority is to beat(gently).

4- [33:50]Next you are misquoting the verses of Holy Quran. Go and read this verse again. Here Allah is telling the men that they have to take care of their wives since they are your property now after marrige. There are no sex slaves, please do not misquote.

5-[23:6] This verse abstains muslim men to have sex with those who are not in a relation of wife with you. Before where Quran has put restrictions on women to share bed with anyone other than his husband, here the men are also told not to commit such an act. Therefore Islam is cleary just for everyone.
6-[2:178] The people of Saudi Arabia are ollowing this rule. We are surely born equal. This verse tells the punishment for those people who kill other. If one cuts someones arm, same should be done with him. Again justice. If lets supose someone’s brother is killed, he would wish to see the murderer being killed in a more severe way but Quran has ordered the punishment equal unless the murderer is not pardoned by the aggrieved brother.

Finally I would advise you again to read the Holy Quranic verses carefully and completely. There are hidden messages. You will find it positive. Waiting for you reply

 

[waitasec]

First of all i would like to advise you to read the the complete text of the Holy Quran before you quote a part of verse from it. It is just like a student starts learning from the grass root level or else he will also be confused with new terms. Understanding the Holy Quran is not an easy job, even for the muslims since it the Sacred word of Almighty Allah.
Now comming to what you have quoted:
1-[2:228] Islam does not promotes divorce.It degrades such an act.Whenever muslims are going to get married, the two are two to show show their consent on it before . This decreases the chance of divorce since both are happy to get married, even if one of them is not happy they won’t marry because this will be an alarm of later problems. That was what I said in my last post that the Holy Quran is a solution to problems,. Finally in the verse where says that men have a status over them, their it has been cleared that men have more responsibilities than women. He has to run the house, fulfill the needs of the family.
2- [4:11] Here you have quoted an incomplete verse. In the property there are more shares for the men than women. Husband is caretaker of his wife so he is given more shares so that he can run his family well. Women on the other hand when get married, same thing, their husband will take care of them so he needs money. Still Islam has set a part of property for her. Also, when a girl gets married, she is presented with many gifts from many relatives. They mostly provide her with Household items for her use, such Refrigirators, Microwave Oven, some furniture, bundle of clothings, and many more, whatever anyone can aord. Then when the couple is binded in this relationship, the boy has to pay a small amout, whatever he wishes to the bride. So all this brings justice. And never such a fight of property has occoured. In fact this verse tells us the share of property in different conditions(read the whole verse).
3- [4:34] Again you are quoting incompletely.
“Men are overseers over women because Allah has given the one more strength than
the other, and because men are required to spend their wealth for the maintenance
of women. Honorable women are, therefore, devoutly obedient and guard in the
husband’s absence what Allah requires them to guard their husband’s property and
their own honor. As to those women from whom you fear disobedience, first
admonish them, then refuse to share your bed with them, and then, if necessary,
beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further actions against them and do not
make excuses to punish them. Allah is Supremely Great and is aware of your
actions” [4:34]
This is the exact cerse and you will se that what acctually Holy Quran says. You will surely get your point cleared. No one would like to see her wife sharing her bed with some outsider. It does not straight forward calls to beat. First admonish her, then refuse to share your bed with her, then third priority is to beat(gently).

4- [33:50]Next you are misquoting the verses of Holy Quran. Go and read this verse again. Here Allah is telling the men that they have to take care of their wives since they are your property now after marrige. There are no sex slaves, please do not misquote.

5-[23:6] This verse abstains muslim men to have sex with those who are not in a relation of wife with you. Before where Quran has put restrictions on women to share bed with anyone other than his husband, here the men are also told not to commit such an act. Therefore Islam is cleary just for everyone.
6-[2:178] The people of Saudi Arabia are ollowing this rule. We are surely born equal. This verse tells the punishment for those people who kill other. If one cuts someones arm, same should be done with him. Again justice. If lets supose someone’s brother is killed, he would wish to see the murderer being killed in a more severe way but Quran has ordered the punishment equal unless the murderer is not pardoned by the aggrieved brother.

Finally I would advise you again to read the Holy Quranic verses carefully and completely. There are hidden messages. You will find it positive. Waiting for you reply

2:228 says what it says...show me where it says what you claim
4:11 is consistant with the idea men are a degree higher than women
"...but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise," (2:228)

4:34 pretty much says that husbands can act like little spoiled brats until they get their way and they have permission to hit their wives into submission...use violence as a last resort...nice
there is no other way of looking at this... because men are a degree (of advantage) over them 2:228

23:6
is only about women sex slaves...do you not consider a woman a woman unless she is married? a sex slave is a sex slave...i don't care if this person isn't married or not...this is another human being that is subjected to being a sex slave...
..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess..." (23:6)


hidden messages...? what? huh?

 

[ellenjanuary]

This is dan4reason and I want to start a discussion on the reason for Jesus' death and his plan for humanity. We will be debating over what the bible says about Jesus' plan and if that is reasonable.

I personally find it illogical to think that we are somehow in need of salvation because we are not perfect, especially when God was the one who made us in the first place. I also find it illogical that our sins are suddenly forgiven when an innocent person chooses to suffer for them. It makes no sense to me. Can anyone explain?

Sho' nuff...

Old school thought was that, crimes committed in skool (on earth) brought about punishments in skool... you punch me in the eye, I kick yo' a@@. And a "sin," a violation of god's law, meant do or die. The new skool brought about a new kind of punishment - bad on earth meant burning, after death. The value of this skool was evident in a new commandment - "thou must spread the Word." Now, the proponents of this skool had no real word "stick" to justify said commandment, so the "carrot" was "eternal life."

Another Christian innovation was that it cost nothing to "follow Jesus'," so this was a gospel spread among the poor and disenfranchised; a group who had a choice between the "lares and penates," the household gods of Rome, or "eternal salvation through our Lord, Jesus Christ (any resemblence between him and Mithras, or Osirius, is purely coincedental)."

I ask you, poor man of the world, which would you choose?