Why did Jesus Die for us?

[Dan4reason]

The Gospel does stop from sinning, the penitent sinner who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior . It does change that person so he will not do it again. Once you have the Holy Spirit, you will receive the power for changing your ways. Jesus Christ can simply "change" people; he can make sure the offense never happens again. It does discourage the crime because a practicing Christian will not even contemplate crime.

Jesus Christ changes lives for the better. Bad people become good. Jesus has to die to enable this to happen. You may argue that other religions also do the same thing. But i think Christianity has the truest and the best and the most longest lasting effect. This is what Jesus meant when he said that he came so that we can have life and an abundant one at that.

I think that your vision of humanity is unrealistic. People will always do wrong no matter how much training they have. Even the most pious saint will commit a transgression at least once in a while. I do agree however that the teachings of Jesus does tend to make people more ethical. However, I am not arguing that Jesus's teachings do not help solve the problems that sins raise. I am arguing that his death doesn't.

In your post you just assume that Jesus had to die for bad people to become good. However, I will still argue that Jesus's death does nothing to solve the problems that sin raises. His death does not make people sinless. His death does not help victims of transgression in any way.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

like any loving parent, we want our children to obey us for various reasons
We generally do things which are in their best interests and for their benefit. We care for them and want to see them do well. We impose rules to keep them safe. We set them standards that we believe are right and good standards and we hope they accept and follow those standards.

We are in agreement here.

When our kids disobey us, it hurts. Especially if its out of rebellion does it hurt. And it especially hurts us if they disobey us and because of that disobedience get themselves into some sort of serious trouble.

Though I have no children, I agree with this, too.

So it is with God, he wants us to obey him for many reasons...not just because he is an authoritarian.

If we have all the other reasons, then why does God need to be an authoritarian? Can't we just obey God because its a good idea. If you've done this whole God thing before, God's word becomes not the law, but merely advice. Very good advice, sometimes advice you can't understand at the moment, but advice nonetheless.
You are arguing over a petty detail, one that doesn't really need to be there. If you are obeying God because of all the other reasons you just stated, then adding on the 'oh yeah, you MUST believe in God because he is the LAW' is superfluous.

In fact, the tree had more then one purpose.
1. it gave Adam and Eve an opportunity to express their free will. Without a single law they would not have had a choice but to obey...so the law itself gave them freewill.

2. it identified Gods position as the lawmaker and thus the authority in their lives. The fact that he imposed the law showed them that he has the right to make laws and that they were not wholly without restrictions.

3. the law made them dependent on God...without it they would have had free reign to do as they pleased.

If you have #1, you don't need 2. Number three is actually contradicting #1; they needed the law to be independent, yet the law makes them dependent. Actually, they had to be independent first, before they knew what dependent was. That is the 'death' that occurred.

but that doesnt make sense either. God doesnt want mankind to die, his word plainly states this:
Deut 30:19.“I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the malediction; and you must choose life in order that you may keep alive.”

Bold underlined italics comes first. Then the underlined. Then bold. That's how you read it. God gives two choices; life and death. If you want to remain alive, you should chose life. If you want to be dead, chose death.
The key to remember here is that death is our natural state. It is where we are pulled by our egos, our bodies, and everyone else. Life is the opposite of that pull, and must be a conscious choice every day if you wish to live.

IMO we dont have to die to know what death is. I havnt died yet and I certainly know what it is lol

To see death is to experience life. Life without death is not life, but merely existence. To live is to be on the edge of a precipice, neither falling, nor in safety, but maintaining an even balance between the two.

I would put it this way: we obey God because he has the right to set the laws by which we are governed & those laws are beneficial for us. And we love God because of who he is.

I say again, if you know what is underlined, you don't need what is in blue. Nor do you need the last bit. If you figure out that 'hey, its sort of a good idea to follow these things' you won't need to tell yourself that the person who said those things is the ultimate ruler of the universe. If someone told you that, the advice would remain advice, perhaps gaining a little prestige, but it would still be advice. Not law.

 

[Faithfreedom]

I will still argue that Jesus's death does nothing to solve the problems that sin raises. His death does not make people sinless. His death does not help victims of transgression in any way.

The bible states that The wages of sin is death - ie eventual physical and spiritual death. For believers, this means that when we die, our sins are fully paid for. We return to dust and are conscious of nothing ie full physical and spiritual death. There is no immortal soul. There is no eternal torture in a fiery hell (all these teachings are from the bible. Lets assume that it is so for now). God cannot resurrect the sinner because death is the consequence of sin. If God resurrect the sinner, it would prove that God is a liar. There is no hope of a resurrection to an eternal life (later after physical death) and to a spiritual life (now) if Jesus did not die for us. Godly justice is unlike human justice.

God cannot resurrect anyone (because he is Justice) unless Jesus ransom them with his perfect earthly human sinless life - the last Adam.

The first Adam condemned us all to become dust eventually.
The last Adam redeems us from that dust to eternal physical and spiritual life - as per our original design and as per God's original plan for the Garden of Eden - ie Paradise.
If this were not so, it would mean that Satan had successfully frustrated God's plan (for a Paradise Earth). This would mean God would lose face. It would mean that God does not deserve the name of Jehovah because "Jehovah" means "I will prove to be what I will prove to be" ie he will prove that he will do all that he plans to do.

In the meantime, while we are still physically alive, the Christian will be made spiritually alive, in that the heavy weight of sin is lifted from their hearts and soul. Thus we can approach God with a clear conscience. Jesus's blood cover our sins and so we appear sinless and can have communion with God now. We are made sinless for now in this life in that way. Otherwise our prayers cannot reach God. (also our guilty conscience would make us feel uneasy - for the want of a better word).

So Jesus's death does helps us a lot.

 

[waitasec]

consequences consequences consequences

If she had of consulted with her husband rather then making a major decision without him, then perhaps neither of them would have sinned.

The truth is that we dont know how God might have dealt with the situation if Adam had of remained faithful to God. Lets say when Eve offered the fruit to him he objected...imagine the dilemma then.

One has sinned and one has remained faithful.

Interesting to contemplate :yes:

if taken literally, this story has so many holes i can use it to strain my pasta

 

[waitasec]

But god did tell her she would die for disobeying. She stated to Satan (when he did his number on her) that god said that all is permissible except of the forbidden fruit. And that if they eat it, they "will surely die." So God did warn her.

Satan is clever. He tempts the more vulnerable of the two. By getting her to fall first, he had planned on Adam failing too. Divide and conquer. And he was right.

oh yeah

i still think they were set up to fail, if you take this story literally...
think about it, they had no knowledge of what was good and what was evil, how can the the god of justice condemn them to death for not understanding what the consequence of disobedience? not that they would die (another subject) but that disobedience was evil.

 

[Faithfreedom]

think about it, they had no knowledge of what was good and what was evil, how can the the god of justice condemn them to death for not understanding what the consequence of disobedience? not that they would die (another subject) but that disobedience was evil.

Let's pretend that the bible is true (for debating sake). We do not know how long A&E was in Paradise (ie the garden of eden). They were fully grown people and not kids. Everything about them were perfect. They had free will.

Now, my contention is that they would have gained some wisdom in all the time they had walked with God. I mean c'mon, they were speaking to God himself one-on-one direct!
Surely they would have learnt much from God; they were not dummies. They may not fully understand the consequence of disobedience - that disobedience was evil, but i do believe they would at least have some sense of it. I mean even Eve could re-iterate to Satan that God said that to eat of it would surely mean death. I believe that she knew that death is not a good thing.

The bible paints in broad strokes; its hard to know the full story. In the end it all boils down to faith.

 

[waitasec]

Let's pretend that the bible is true (for debating sake). We do not know how long A&E was in Paradise (ie the garden of eden). They were fully grown people and not kids. Everything about them were perfect. They had free will.

Now, my contention is that they would have gained some wisdom in all the time they had walked with God. I mean c'mon, they were speaking to God himself one-on-one direct!
Surely they would have learnt much from God; they were not dummies. They may not fully understand the consequence of disobedience - that disobedience was evil, but i do believe they would at least have some sense of it. I mean even Eve could re-iterate to Satan that God said that to eat of it would surely mean death. I believe that she knew that death is not a good thing.

The bible paints in broad strokes; its hard to know the full story. In the end it all boils down to faith.

how do you come to the understanding that they were speaking to god face to face?

yes it does boil down to faith. but if faith is believing in things unseen and god spoke to them face to face then there was no need for faith, in adam and eves case. so why is it so different for us now? even when jesus was here, he said, believe the miracles that i have made so you believe...

john 10:38 "...even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."
why talk about faith if there were signs...

faith is required today, why are there no signs...anywhere?

 

[Faithfreedom]

how do you come to the understanding that they were speaking to god face to face?

Genesis 3:8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden.

Note: he was walking ie he had feet. God materialized in human form probably.
its probably his routine to have a walk-about in the evenings. Sensible and logical.

yes it does boil down to faith. but if faith is believing in things unseen and god spoke to them face to face then there was no need for faith, in adam and eves case. so why is it so different for us now?

After A&E's fall from grace, direct face to face communication with God was interrupted. This is part of spiritual death because of sin. The nature of God cannot abide by sin. Nothing sinful can come near him. So we sinners cannot communicate with God unless the blood of Jesus covers our sins to make us appear sinless before him. You need faith to believe in Jesus before you can have access to communications channels to God.

even when jesus was here, he said, believe the miracles that i have made so you believe...

john 10:38 "...even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."
why talk about faith if there were signs...

Jesus was speaking to the Jews of that time who were stubborn - a "stiffed necked people". Even with signs and prophecies, they still refused to believe that he was the promised Messiah. Then, even with miricles performed right before their very eyes, many of them still refused to believe. Worse still, they wanted his blood. In a way, walking by faith is more crucial (for the want of a better word) than walking by sight.

faith is required today, why are there no signs...anywhere?

Signs and miracles were important during the church's infancy. Once the church was well established and more mature, they were no longer needed.

(some signs and miracles still do occur today, but not many)

 

[Starsoul]

In your post you just assume that Jesus had to die for bad people to become good. However, I will still argue that Jesus's death does nothing to solve the problems that sin raises. His death does not make people sinless. His death does not help victims of transgression in any way.

Agreed.

 

[Faithfreedom]

If Jesus did not die, Christianity would never come to be. Many prophecies in the OT revolved around the long awaited Messiah. Where and when he would be born, travell, how he would suffer and die, his ressurection, etc. God prepares his plans and announces it in the OT. The devil tries to sabotage this plan when he tempted jesus to come over to his side. Luckily Jesus decided to hold true to his Father's plan. Thus giving Christians the perfect example to emulate.

Cheers folks.

 

[Dan4reason]

It is separation from God that causes the torment. You are in some degree of torment as we speak, because you are to some degree separated from God. If that isn't true you wouldn't seek pleasure as a means to ease that torment.IMO

People do not seek pleasure to ease torment. They seek pleasure to be happy. I doubt you have good scriptural evidence to back that statement up. Could you give me some? I also ask that you describe WHY we suffer torment when we are away from God. What in us comes in pain when we are separated from him?

Stubbornness, or because they think it is the right decision when it may not be. That is a couple.

Motive

different beliefs, and different motives.

Where do our beliefs and motives come from, how do we aquire these beliefs and motives in each of our unique ways? Do you think our emotions or the state of our minds or the environments we live in might affect these?

God can't make a free moral agent obey without removing free moral agency. God is using our experience on Earth to show us what life is like when we don't obey. In heaven there will be free moral agents that will want to obey God as they have this experience to draw from.

Here is what you said in post #89

God is going to give believers a makeover one day and remove our sinfulness so we can be like him.

According to you, God won't make people obey him. God will simply make believers sinless wiping away their faults so they will choose to obey.

God is the one who made our minds, instinct, emotions, world, and fellow humans we interact with. Do you think we just make decisions just because? No. There are reasons we choose the things we do. We make decisions based on the environment and choices we have and our disposition. A passive person will make different decisions than an agressive person whether the passive disposition is cultural or has a genetic component.

God can do anything and he could have made sure that sinners were not created. He could have made sure we did not have the same curse as Adam and Eve.

He made us perfect. It was man that wanted to disobey. As far as the harshness of punishment, maybe you don't understand the seriousness of the crime. Furthermore, how can he allow you into heaven when by law you must be punished? If He did that He wouldn't be just.

God made Adam and Eve perfect. He made the other 11 billion humans or so who ever existed imperfect. It was Adam and Eve who disobeyed in the garden of eden, not all 11 billion humans.

So why does disobeying God deserve death when it is in our natures which he created?

It sounds like a good deal to me. If God wants to take my punishment so I can have a chance to go to heaven then hats off to God. I'm all in.

That is not a response to the arguement the Jesus's death doesn't solve any problems. My argument still stands and so far it is obvious that Jesus's death cannot take care of our sins.

So you want a judge that doesn't require justice? I'll bet you want justice for those that commit crimes against you.

That is twisting what I said. I said that many crimes deserve punishment however some don't. I am arguing that there should be a reason to harm others in the act of punishment. If punishment was not aimed to fix the problem that the crime created, then it is simply revenge. All vengeful punishment does is create even more misery on top of the crime that it is committed. Punishment on the other hand should aim at eventually stopping misery.

This is the concept of Justice. The way you fix your sin is to first give back to those you hurt, and to make sure that the crime does not happen again. If you punish without trying to fix wrong doing then as I said before, there is no point to it, it just creates just more misery in the world, and it is revenge. Calling revenge justice does not make it justice.

We see justice in our legal system. We imprison people to keep them from the general public so no further harm will be caused. We give people fines to discourage them from committing crimes. We educate prisoners so they will have oppurtunities when they go free and so will be less likely to commit crime again. We have lawsuits so that the victim will receive compensation for wrongs done to him. We have drug rehab to help cure people of their drug addictions.

If a person is reformed so he no longer has a desire to do the crime, and there is no need or way to pay compensation, there is no reason to punish him. Because of this, we must be careful how we punish crimes and make sure that punishments actually fix the crime. So punishing the smallest offense with eternal damnation may not be the way to go and just creates even more misery.

As I argued before, Jesus's death is not a solution to wrongdoing in any way. Please tell me how it fixes sin. So far the philosophy is a mess.

This is what happens when you conceive of a God who made people who are so imperfect that they could never live up to his perfectionist standards and who punishes even the smallest crime with eternal isolation, pain, and sadness.

Maybe a God who makes more perfect people would be better. Maybe a God who could put up with living with imperfect people may be a better solution. Maybe a God who punishes crime more lightly and in such a way as to reform, and gives people a chance will be better.

 

[PolyHedral]

God made Adam and Eve perfect. He made the other 11 billion humans or so who ever existed imperfect. It was Adam and Eve who disobeyed in the garden of eden, not all 11 billion humans.

So why does disobeying God deserve death when it is in our natures which he created?

...106 billion.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

consequences consequences consequences

If she had of consulted with her husband rather then making a major decision without him, then perhaps neither of them would have sinned.

The truth is that we dont know how God might have dealt with the situation if Adam had of remained faithful to God. Lets say when Eve offered the fruit to him he objected...imagine the dilemma then.

No dilemma. Same outcome. Both Adam and Eve would still not have learned the lesson of the tree. Eve would have eaten, blaming the snake. God would have asked Adam why he didn't support his partner, Adam would say 'you told me not to', which is a lie because God clearly did intend for Adam and Eve to be together in all things. Adam would then blame Eve for making trouble for him (which is what he did in the original story). Eve is already blaming the serpent, so they both get thrown out of Eden.

Interesting to contemplate :yes:

If Adam had asked Eve why she ate the apple, but refused to accept the serpent excuse, then it would be very interesting to contemplate. But that would destroy the original intent for the tree, and God would just teach them something else with it, which both Adam and Eve would undoubtedly fail to learn, and thus get kicked out of Eden.
That's the end result. It will ALWAYS be the end result. So maybe a little learning gets done in the garden (very unlikely, but possible). Still, you have to go out to the world and actually live before you can really know what life is.

 

[Pegg]

No dilemma. Same outcome. Both Adam and Eve would still not have learned the lesson of the tree. Eve would have eaten, blaming the snake. God would have asked Adam why he didn't support his partner, Adam would say 'you told me not to', which is a lie because God clearly did intend for Adam and Eve to be together in all things. Adam would then blame Eve for making trouble for him (which is what he did in the original story). Eve is already blaming the serpent, so they both get thrown out of Eden.

lol Sounds like an episode of Laruel and Hardie!

well, who knows how it might have panned out in that scenario.
It likely would have gone one of either two ways.
God could have created a new wife for Adam OR he could have allowed Eve to live and have Adams children but protect those children from being born with Eves imperfection in the same way he prevented the imperfection of Mary being transferred into Jesus.

If Adam had asked Eve why she ate the apple, but refused to accept the serpent excuse, then it would be very interesting to contemplate. But that would destroy the original intent for the tree, and God would just teach them something else with it, which both Adam and Eve would undoubtedly fail to learn, and thus get kicked out of Eden.

but the tree represented Gods Sovereignty and if one of them continued to recognize Gods authority, then the challenge raised about Gods right to rule would never have been an issue...the only issue would have been Eves imperfection.

God could have easily dealt with that by creating a new woman....but if he had of then none of us would have been born.

 

[waitasec]

why did jesus die for us?

if perfect love keeps no record of any wrong doing, and god is love, then we are already forgiven...

so basically jesus died because he was a rebel fighting against the status quo

 

[strikeviperMKII]

lol Sounds like an episode of Laruel and Hardie!

well, who knows how it might have panned out in that scenario.
It likely would have gone one of either two ways.
God could have created a new wife for Adam OR he could have allowed Eve to live and have Adams children but protect those children from being born with Eves imperfection in the same way he prevented the imperfection of Mary being transferred into Jesus.

You're right, who knows.
As for your two options, the first is silly, because the second wife would have the same imperfection that Eve had (which is the same as Adam's imperfection). As for your second option...all I can say that it's already done. For all of us. But again you've forgotten the fact that Adam also had the same imperfection as Eve. In fact, but forgetting this, you are showing that imperfection in yourself...but perhaps I'm overreaching myself.

but the tree represented Gods Sovereignty and if one of them continued to recognize Gods authority, then the challenge raised about Gods right to rule would never have been an issue...the only issue would have been Eve's imperfection.

God could have easily dealt with that by creating a new woman....but if he had of then none of us would have been born.

I think the first word of this should be 'if' not 'but'. Second, there is still Adam's imperfection to deal with as well...again you're missing it. So God would have needed to recreate both Adam and Eve...which is sort of what he did in the first place. But then the whole thing would have happened again, even if God had only created a new 'Eve' and left Adam the same.

 

[Danmac]

People do not seek pleasure to ease torment. They seek pleasure to be happy. I doubt you have good scriptural evidence to back that statement up. Could you give me some? I also ask that you describe WHY we suffer torment when we are away from God. What in us comes in pain when we are separated from him?

God gives joy. It is a fundamental "need" of the soul. Not only is it a need, but humankind has a subconscious longing for the presence of God which produces joy, which is never completely filled. Since joy is a fundamental need, people like you that don't have it must search for pleasures that will create the desired feeling, but is merely counterfeit joy. Pleasure is the medicine of the soul. My question to you is, why do you need to get happy, aren't you naturally happy? People that aren't in a state of peace, must manufacture their own at momentary intervals.

Romans 8:22 For we know that all living things are suffering and sorrowing in pain together even now.

Where do our beliefs and motives come from

Our beliefs come from persuasion, our motives come from our passions. The heroin addict has a passion to do drugs. Does passion make it right?

Here is what you said in post #89

God is going to give believers a makeover one day and remove our sinfulness so we can be like him.

According to you, God won't make people obey him. God will simply make believers sinless wiping away their faults so they will choose to obey.

God cannot force a free moral agent. It goes against the very nature of a free moral agent. Since He cannot force a free moral agent to obey, He must demonstrate what a civilization would be like when people choose not to obey. Death, hunger, suffering, murder, hate, selfishness. After we have experienced this hell He will give his believers a taste of a civilization where these things are non existent. To do that He does not have to interfere with free will, He only has to change our nature. Since free will is influenced by passion, it is not free will that determines what one will do, but what one has a passion for. A person in recovery "wants" to obey with their will, but passion often causes them to relapse.

God is the one who made our minds, instinct, emotions, world, and fellow humans we interact with. Do you think we just make decisions just because? No. There are reasons we choose the things we do. We make decisions based on the environment and choices we have and our disposition. A passive person will make different decisions than an aggressive person whether the passive disposition is cultural or has a genetic component.

God can do anything and he could have made sure that sinners were not created. He could have made sure we did not have the same curse as Adam and Eve.

The law created sin, not God. Forced obedience compels our wicked nature to disobey. People do not like being "told" what to do. It incites the old nature to disobedience. When people get a taste of heaven they will no longer care to live in hell. btw. A man of integrity needs no law to obey, it is his disposition. It is the wicked who need laws, because they have a disposition to disobey.

God made Adam and Eve perfect. He made the other 11 billion humans or so who ever existed imperfect. It was Adam and Eve who disobeyed in the garden of eden, not all 11 billion humans.

So why does disobeying God deserve death when it is in our natures which he created?

Then by your argument God owes us an out. He agrees, and He is offering us one. He is paying the tab. Are you in?

That is not a response to the arguement the Jesus's death doesn't solve any problems. My argument still stands and so far it is obvious that Jesus's death cannot take care of our sins.

Jesus didn't die for your sins, He died for Adam's. It is because of Adam that you and I are sinners. When Jesus died for adam the debt was paid, and we now have an opportunity to receive a free pardon since the debt has been paid.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as all sinned:
abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by one offense sentence came on all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came to all men to justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous.

That is twisting what I said. I said that many crimes deserve punishment however some don't. I am arguing that there should be a reason to harm others in the act of punishment. If punishment was not aimed to fix the problem that the crime created, then it is simply revenge. All vengeful punishment does is create even more misery on top of the crime that it is committed. Punishment on the other hand should aim at eventually stopping misery.

God is light. Darkness cannot exist where there is light. Evil cannot exist where there is God. Evil is not purposed by God, it can only be accomplished in His absence. When we choose to distance ourselves from God, darkness naturally comes upon us. It is not willed by God, it is simply the result of His absence.

This is the concept of Justice. The way you fix your sin is to first give back to those you hurt, and to make sure that the crime does not happen again. If you punish without trying to fix wrong doing then as I said before, there is no point to it, it just creates just more misery in the world, and it is revenge. Calling revenge justice does not make it justice.

Hell is not just a form of punishment, it is the result of God's complete absence. People choose to distance themselves from God, so they are in fact choosing hell. If you do not want to live in hell for eternity God is offering you a free pardon. If you don't take him up on the offer why should you blame Him when you end up there?

We see justice in our legal system. We imprison people to keep them from the general public so no further harm will be caused. We give people fines to discourage them from committing crimes. We educate prisoners so they will have oppurtunities when they go free and so will be less likely to commit crime again. We have lawsuits so that the victim will receive compensation for wrongs done to him. We have drug rehab to help cure people of their drug addictions.

God is offering to bail you oput of an eternal jail. You will never have to go there again. What do you say?

If a person is reformed so he no longer has a desire to do the crime, and there is no need or way to pay compensation, there is no reason to punish him. Because of this, we must be careful how we punish crimes and make sure that punishments actually fix the crime. So punishing the smallest offense with eternal damnation may not be the way to go and just creates even more misery.

Then if you vow to change your ways, God will have no reason to punish you either.

As I argued before, Jesus's death is not a solution to wrongdoing in any way. Please tell me how it fixes sin. So far the philosophy is a mess.

You are a sinner by no choice of your own. We are sinners because of Adam. Again, Jesus died to pay for Adam's sin not yours. You get a free pardon because the initial transgression has been nullified. It's kinda like a factory recall where Jesus pays the tab to fix the problem.

Monday, March 30, 2009

God's Recall Notice


RECALL NOTICE: The Maker of all human beings (GOD) is recalling all units manufactured, regardless of make or year, due to a serious defect in the primary and central component of the heart.

This is due to a malfunction in the original prototype units code named Adam and Eve, resulting in the reproduction of the same defect in all subsequent units. This defect has been technically termed 'Sub-sequential Internal Non-Morality,' or more commonly known as S.I.N., as it is primarily expressed.

Some of the symptoms include:

1. Loss of direction
2. Foul vocal emissions
3. Amnesia of origin
4. Lack of peace and joy
5. Selfish or violent behavior
6. Depression or confusion in the mental component
7.. Fearfulness
8. Idolatry
9.Rebellion

The Manufacturer, who is neither liable nor at fault for this defect, is providing factory-authorized repair and service free of charge to correct this defect.

The Repair Technician, Jesus, has most generously offered to bear the entire burden of the staggering cost of these repairs. There is no additional fee required.

The number to call for repair in all areas is: P-R-A-Y-E-R. Once connected, please upload your burden of SIN through the REPENTANCE procedure. Next, download ATONEMENT from the Repair Technician, Jesus, into the heart component.

No matter how big or small the SIN defect is, Jesus will replace it with:

1. Love
2. Joy
3. Peace
4. Patience
5. Kindness
6. Goodness
7. Faithfulness
8. Gentleness
9. Self control

Please see the operating manual, the B.I.B.L.E. (Believers' Instructions Before Leaving Earth) for further details on the use of these fixes.

WARNING: Continuing to operate the human being unit without correction voids any manufacturer warranties, exposing the unit to dangers and problems too numerous to list and will result in the human unit being permanently impounded. For free emergency service, call on Jesus.

DANGER: The human being units not responding to this recall action will have to be scrapped in the furnace. The SIN defect will not be permitted to enter Heaven so as to prevent contamination of that facility. Thank you for your attention!

--- GOD

 

[Faithfreedom]

if perfect love keeps no record of any wrong doing, and god is love, then we are already forgiven...

Yes but God is also justice.

 

[waitasec]

Yes but God is also justice.

or a contradiction...

 

[Faithfreedom]

or a contradiction...

.....