Why did the early church send greetings in God, and in Jesus Christ, instead of a trinity?

[Kenny]

Walking on water and curing is totally man? No, these are acts of some divine power (if true).

Yes... but that happened after he received the fulness of the Holy Spirit. While on this earth, he was simply modeling how, through the Holy Spirit, we as men and women can have the dominion that God gave us through the Holy Spirit. Remember, Peter also walks on water

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

 

[Soapy]

I wouldn't call it an "invented" term because Paul used it. A new term? Well, maybe in its application. I know that the word agape was probably a new term to describe something.that no words previously had the capacity to express,

Yes, on your application of the scripture. When Jesus came as a man, he did not have the Holy Spirit because He needed to come as a man.



Again, absolutely true. Jesus came as a man and couldn't do anything without God the Holy Spirit.



This is so true!!! Love how Jesus stands as our example as the Son of Man.


I think that you are misinterpreting here in as much as they wanted to stone him even when he does good works not to mention:

30 I and my Father are one.31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

I think that if anyone understood what Jesus was saying would be the Jewish people themselves.

Regardless... when He was "The Word" - is was totally God but when he was on earth he was totally man.


Because He said so? And John said so? And Thomas said so?




I think the problem here is that I look at it holistically while you are seeing it while he was man.

So... imagine if you have a spirit and soul and body. I can touch your body but not your spirit. They are different in materiality, function and substance but yet you are still one.

Again and again the Jews understood that he was saying that he was equal with God or made himself God and wanted to stone him for it. Pretty clear to me.



So.. Jesus BEFORE he was filled with the Holy Spirit and BEFORE he was made flesh, He was The Word equal with God and was God... ask it is written.

Just one God.

Again and again the Jews [MIS-] understood that he was saying that he was equal with God or made himself God and wanted to stone him for it. Pretty clear to me.

Can I ask you why you think Jesus was so angry that he quoted scriptures, even adding that the scriptures cannot be broken, saying to the Jews that being called ‘God’ did not mean the person WAS GOD:Yahweh because even GOD:Yahweh, called holy men in the power of God:Yahweh, ‘Gods’. And, in fact, he, Jesus HAD YET ONLY CALLED HIMSELF “God:Yahweh’s Son”.
((Here, I use ‘God:Yahweh’ as the Almighty God that the Jews knew and worshipped. And ‘God’ as ‘Mighty Ones’, ‘Heroes’, ‘Rulers and Judges’))

Jesus said he was “God’s Son”. So the question here is:

• “What does it mean to be ‘God’s Son”?
• “What does it mean to be ‘Son of God:Yahweh’”?

Jesus went on to explain this:

• “If I am not doing the works of my Father then do not believe me [That God is my Father]’
• “Believe that I am the Son of God because I am doing the works of my Father”

And scriptures tells us also:

• ‘ALL who follow the Spirit [of God] are children of God’
• A Son (a child) of God DOES THE WORKS OF GOD

There is ONLY ONE GOD:YAHWEH and therefore the Son of God:Yahweh cannot BE GOD:Yahweh.

I hear it all the time from Trinitarians that THE JEWS KNEW Jesus WAS GOD…. But then they say that Jews were ACCUSING Jesus of calling himself GOD and that it was BLASPHEMY to do so…
Isn’t that ironic? It is desperation to make a claim against the evidence that makes them create the ironic situation… adapting their belief according to the situation: supporting a fallacy or denying a truth!

Jesus was DENYING to the Jews that he had claimed to be God:Yahweh…

He was ONLY SAYING that ‘God is my Father’, and THAT did not make him GOD:YAHWEH.

 

[Soapy]

Walking on water and curing is totally man? No, these are acts of some divine power (if true).

Why does everyone forget that Peter walked on the water… It was an ACT OF FAITH: ‘Oh ye of little faith!’

And the disciples and the apostles ‘cured’ … It is because of the empowerment of the Holy Spirit:
Jesus at his baptism - The Apostles at Pentecost.

 

[Soapy]

Yes... but that happened after he received the fulness of the Holy Spirit. While on this earth, he was simply modeling how, through the Holy Spirit, we as men and women can have the dominion that God gave us through the Holy Spirit. Remember, Peter also walks on water

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

KenS, if you only now ditch the ‘Before he came to earth’ then you would be a greater disciple in the scriptures.

It is indeed the EMPOWERMENT by the Holy Spirit which those sanctified by God receive that allows them to perform those great works that the Father set them to do:

• ‘My Will,’ Jesus said, ‘is to do the Will of him who sent - and to finish his works’

This ‘works’ is to gather the children of Israel, and long term, all mankind back to God … even in the full knowledge and wisdom and reality that not all will be saved! The road to destruction is broad and straight: the road to salvation in eternal life is narrow and rocky:

• ““Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” (Matt 7:13-14)

 

[Kenny]

Can I ask you why you think Jesus was so angry that he quoted scriptures, even adding that the scriptures cannot be broken, saying to the Jews that being called ‘God’ did not mean the person WAS GOD:Yahweh because even GOD:Yahweh, called holy men in the power of God:Yahweh, ‘Gods’. And, in fact, he, Jesus HAD YET ONLY CALLED HIMSELF “God:Yahweh’s Son”.
((Here, I use ‘God:Yahweh’ as the Almighty God that the Jews knew and worshipped. And ‘God’ as ‘Mighty Ones’, ‘Heroes’, ‘Rulers and Judges’))

Jesus said he was “God’s Son”. So the question here is:

• “What does it mean to be ‘God’s Son”?
• “What does it mean to be ‘Son of God:Yahweh’”?

Jesus went on to explain this:

• “If I am not doing the works of my Father then do not believe me [That God is my Father]’
• “Believe that I am the Son of God because I am doing the works of my Father”

And scriptures tells us also:

• ‘ALL who follow the Spirit [of God] are children of God’
• A Son (a child) of God DOES THE WORKS OF GOD

There is ONLY ONE GOD:YAHWEH and therefore the Son of God:Yahweh cannot BE GOD:Yahweh.

I hear it all the time from Trinitarians that THE JEWS KNEW Jesus WAS GOD…. But then they say that Jews were ACCUSING Jesus of calling himself GOD and that it was BLASPHEMY to do so…
Isn’t that ironic? It is desperation to make a claim against the evidence that makes them create the ironic situation… adapting their belief according to the situation: supporting a fallacy or denying a truth!

Jesus was DENYING to the Jews that he had claimed to be God:Yahweh…

He was ONLY SAYING that ‘God is my Father’, and THAT did not make him GOD:YAHWEH.

I think you mis-understood why Jesus was angry....

Let's see what he said:
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

They took up their stone "AGAIN" to kill him. That is why he was angry, not because of what they said but what they were about to do.

The problem here, as I see it, is that people always pick those versus while Jesus was a man to disprove the reality of what the makeup of God is at the expense of all the other versus that say he is God or that other acknowledged that he is God.

Before he became man, he was fully God.

The versus you select only deal with when he was just the son of man.

 

[Kenny]

KenS,
It is indeed the EMPOWERMENT by the Holy Spirit which those sanctified by God receive that allows them to perform those great works that the Father set them to do:

• ‘My Will,’ Jesus said, ‘is to do the Will of him who sent - and to finish his works’

This ‘works’ is to gather the children of Israel, and long term, all mankind back to God … even in the full knowledge and wisdom and reality that not all will be saved! The road to destruction is broad and straight: the road to salvation in eternal life is narrow and rocky:

• ““Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” (Matt 7:13-14)

I agree TOTALLY with what is written above.

 

[user4578]

He was ONLY SAYING that ‘God is my Father’

If that's all he was saying, he wouldn't have had much reason to judge those which claimed the same of themselves - John 8:41b. Otherwise why would he tell them that God wasn't their Father; what proof would he have had(John 15:22-24)? His doctrine was far more vehement than you make it out to be.

 

[Clara Tea]

1. “Paul, Silas and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:” (2 Thes 1:1)
2. “Grace and peace to you from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (2 Thes 1:2)

In 1., the apostle addresses the Father as ‘God’ and addresses Jesus Christ as ‘Lord’.

For a supposedly unbreakable doctrine expressing three persons as a one immutable, almighty worshipped being, it is odd that there the greeting is only to two persons, one only of whom is called ‘God’.

Where is the third person that makes a trinity?

Of course, this isn’t *THE ONLY* incredibly belittling error towards the third person by one only apostle to the Thessalonians because there are also these: (*Edit : error corrected by additional text*)

• “James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations: Greetings.” (James 1:1)
• “Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness…” (Titus 1:1)
• “This letter is from Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, chosen by God to be an apostle and sent out to preach his Good News.” (Romans 1:1)

And many more.

The last listed has the apostle Paul claiming himself as a slave of Jesus Christ … chosen by God!

Not only, again, is there only two persons mentioned, not a trinity three, but it is clear that these two are completely separate beings. One is GOD and the other is Jesus Christ.

How is it then claimed by world wide ideological groups calling themselves ‘Followers of [Jesus] Christ’ that GOD and Jesus Christ are GOD, and GOD, is three persons who are ONE IMMUTABLE GOD who must be worshipped. Yet there is no mention of a third person that would form a trinity of co-equal all powerful all knowing Being (singular!)

Did Jesus Christ ever claim that he was a ‘Three Person GOD’, with one of the other members called GOD, and that he must be worshipped as God?

Indeed, where is there an expression in the scriptures even saying to worship the third unnamed person? And, does anyone actually worship a third unnamed person of a claimed ‘holy trinity’?

And if there is no worship claim for either Jesus Christ, or the third unnamed trinity person, are the ‘Followers of [Jesus] Christ’ not guilty of sacrilege by disowning their own claims… and proudly denouncing baptism in the name of three persons by baptising in the name of ONLY ONE PERSON of the three person, only two named, one God (called ‘Father’), being entitled: “GOD”!

(Observation: God appears to be a member of the trinity God trio - which makes Jesus a recursive entity in God since he is the ‘Son of God’, and the same ‘God’ that he is the Son of… giving:

• God is “God, Jesus Christ, unnamed person”
  
• But Jesus Christ is ‘Son of God’
• So, God is “God, Son of God (who is God), unnamed other person’
• God is ‘God, God as Son, as God, ….’

Can anyone offer an explanation of this seemingly retched conundrum which passes itself off as ‘Christianity’ which purports to be what Jesus Christ taught and they follow?

Many parts of the bible indicate that only God is God, and there is no other. They also say that Jesus is the son of God and is called Lord (not God). Jesus also talks to God (clearly not talking to himself). Why would God allow anyone to nail him to a cross and suffer?

 

[Soapy]

I think you mis-understood why Jesus was angry....

Let's see what he said:
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

They took up their stone "AGAIN" to kill him. That is why he was angry, not because of what they said but what they were about to do.

The problem here, as I see it, is that people always pick those versus while Jesus was a man to disprove the reality of what the makeup of God is at the expense of all the other versus that say he is God or that other acknowledged that he is God.

Before he became man, he was fully God.

The versus you select only deal with when he was just the son of man.

KenS, there are no verses where Jesus was ‘before’ in existence.

There may be verses that SEEM to be implying a pre-existence but these are all trinitarian manipulation of the truth. And for sure you can illuminate anything where it is said that Jesus was ‘SENT FROM HEAVEN’ because that is certainly a deliberate mistranslation.

The ‘SENDING’ was ‘FROM GOD’ which was changed to ‘FROM HEAVEN’ to make it seems like there was a pre-existence. In reality and truth, Jesus was ‘SENT [FROM GOD]’ after he was ‘Called by God’ to start his mission… after he was anointed:

• “They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.” (John 17:16-18)

Jesus was first ‘Sanctified’ (Set apart - anointed by Holy Spirit : Jesus’ Baptism) THEN ‘sent into the world’
The Apostles were first ‘Sanctified’ (Pentecost) and then ‘sent into the world’.

‘God’ has no need to be ‘Sanctified’! So please stop thinking if Jesus as ‘God’ by any means (pre-existence or otherwise).

You know the verse where ‘God’ is supposed to have been, ‘Seen by angels, Justified in the spirit, raised up to Heaven’… don’t you think that is preposterous… God created angels and holy angels ‘always see the face of God’ and how is God ‘justified’ in the flesh… God does not have flesh… and ‘Raised up to heaven’ … by whom? God? God raised GOD up to heaven to be seated a next to God… yet GOD says, ‘Beside me there is no other God’… come on, please!!!

Drop this: ‘He was pre-existent’ and you will have the truth.

KenS, who is RETURNING to judge the world?

KenS, who is destined to RULE CREATION from the spiritual seat of his ancestral forefather, King David?

KenS, is it:

1. Jesus the God?, or
2. Jesus the Man?

KenS, if you chose 1., you worship a false God, a created god. Jesus NEVER EVEN ONCE spoke of a pre-existent life… He was born holy and sinless from ‘the seed of a woman… not the sinful seed of a man’, sanctified by God, sent into the world, overcome the world, and died without sinning but taking on himself all the sins of the first man, Adam in order to obtain salvation from eternal death in the spirit of all mankind. He was thus glorified by God and given a position ’Higher than those of his brethren’ … the honor to be seated at the right hand of God. If he was ALREADY GOD how would this latter be an incredible achievement and glorious reward?

KenS, if you chose 2., then stop believing in a pre-existent God! You would then believe that God created a man born sinless and holy who maintained himself sinless righteous and holy and died to save mankind. In this he was rewarded with a position in heaven greater than all others who did great deeds in God (a greater position than his brethren) and he gains the position as Judge over mankind (which GOD delegated TO HIM… if he was God how is this a delegation?) and he is made RULER over creation. If he was God, how is he TO BECOME RULER over what he already is GOD OVER?

 

[Soapy]

Many parts of the bible indicate that only God is God, and there is no other. They also say that Jesus is the son of God and is called Lord (not God). Jesus also talks to God (clearly not talking to himself). Why would God allow anyone to nail him to a cross and suffer?

I find it so natural to believe this that I no longer even say it so simplistically. The demand in a debate is also to SHOW the scriptures that provide the evidence of what you believe.

 

[Soapy]

If that's all he was saying, he wouldn't have had much reason to judge those which claimed the same of themselves - John 8:41b. Otherwise why would he tell them that God wasn't their Father; what proof would he have had(John 15:22-24)? His doctrine was far more vehement than you make it out to be.

I’m not sure what you are arguing. I did say that he was angry … I don’t need to say he was MAD WITH RAGE… it is simple enough to say he opposed the retched view that he had blasphemed … Whatever the Jews THOUGHT they heard Jesus say, Jesus corrected them and defended himself FULLY!

It is this very ‘FULLY’ that gets the goat of Trinitarians causing them to OPPOSE the truth that Jesus had just said he WASN’T GOD.

They take the view of a strange unfounded belief that ‘A Son is equal to his Father’. I have found not a single piece of evidence that this was ever a belief of anyone - let alone the Jews. It is also so preposterous an idea that I can only imagine it was ADDED by Trinitarians to make it seem that Jesus was saying he was ‘GOD’ because he was “God’s Son”.

But see here: The idea told to me by Trinitarians, was that the Son is of the SAME SUBSTANCE AS THE FATHER… A human son is the same flesh substance as his father and thus the son of Spirit God must be a Spirit Son (But they deny jesus was created by the father… honestly, you couldn’t make it up - but they did!!) therefore, to them, it fits with Jesus saying that he and the Father were One. Meaning that what the Father is so the Son is… and since the Father is God then the Son MUST ALSO BE GOD!!!

Oh boy!!!

NO! Jesus merely said that God is his Father and he AGREED with his Father… that HIS WILL is the SAME AS HIS Father’s.

 

[Kenny]

KenS, there are no verses where Jesus was ‘before’ in existence.

There may be verses that SEEM to be implying a pre-existence but these are all trinitarian manipulation of the truth. And for sure you can illuminate anything where it is said that Jesus was ‘SENT FROM HEAVEN’ because that is certainly a deliberate mistranslation.

I would disagree as would many of the fathers of the faith:

John 17:8 glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
- self explanatory

John 3: 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
1 John 1: 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.
Colossians 1:
16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
John 1:1

And so many more.

The ‘SENDING’ was ‘FROM GOD’ which was changed to ‘FROM HEAVEN’ to make it seems like there was a pre-existence. In reality and truth, Jesus was ‘SENT [FROM GOD]’ after he was ‘Called by God’ to start his mission… after he was anointed:

• “They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.” (John 17:16-18)

Jesus was first ‘Sanctified’ (Set apart - anointed by Holy Spirit : Jesus’ Baptism) THEN ‘sent into the world’
The Apostles were first ‘Sanctified’ (Pentecost) and then ‘sent into the world’.

No... this has to do when Jesus was the Son of Man - not his pre-existence as The Word

You know the verse where ‘God’ is supposed to have been, ‘Seen by angels, Justified in the spirit, raised up to Heaven’… don’t you think that is preposterous… God created angels and holy angels ‘always see the face of God’ and how is God ‘justified’ in the flesh… God does not have flesh… and ‘Raised up to heaven’ … by whom? God? God raised GOD up to heaven to be seated a next to God… yet GOD says, ‘Beside me there is no other God’… come on, please!!!

Are you saying that you don't understand that scripture?

 

[Soapy]

I would disagree as would many of the fathers of the faith:

John 17:8 glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
- self explanatory

John 3: 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
1 John 1: 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.
Colossians 1:
16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
John 1:1

And so many more.



No... this has to do when Jesus was the Son of Man - not his pre-existence as The Word



Are you saying that you don't understand that scripture?

KenS, just ditch the ‘pre-existence’ and you will have found the truth.

 

[Kenny]

KenS, just ditch the ‘pre-existence’ and you will have found the truth.

I follow this principle...
"31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

And I set free, indeed.

Shalom

 

[Soapy]

I follow this principle...
"31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

And I set free, indeed.

Shalom

Hi KenS, I know you mean well and think well of what you think you believe the scriptures say about some ‘pre-existent Jesus’. But I must warn you that the Trinitarians have altered the word of God to try to make it seem what they want it to say.

And as a case in point, the verses you think say Jesus was pre-existent are not valid translations.

But keep on with the other part of your belief with Jesus as a man… a holy sinless and righteous man who will inherit the throne of David…. The ‘Son of man’ is the one who was taken up to heaven and the son of man is he who will return to conquer sin and unrighteousness.

Nowhere does it say that ‘God’ will come or ‘God’ will return … because ‘God’ does not stray from his heavenly ethereal throne.

I don’t think you said explicitly that you think Jesus was God … did you? But in any case it falls that way if you think he was pre-existent.

Who was taken up to heaven BY GOD?

Who was seated on the right hand of GOD?

Who is given power and authority to rule fir a period of time?

Who will return with his powerful angels?

Who will inherit the throne of David… David was a man…?

Why would GOD be any of the above?

If Jesus created all things then why is he only an HEIR to God… To GOD who created all things?
Conundrum for you to solve?
It won’t be solved if you belief Jesus IS GOD?

 

[Kenny]

Hi KenS, I know you mean well and think well of what you think you believe the scriptures say about some ‘pre-existent Jesus’. But I must warn you that the Trinitarians have altered the word of God to try to make it seem what they want it to say.

And as a case in point, the verses you think say Jesus was pre-existent are not valid translations.

But keep on with the other part of your belief with Jesus as a man… a holy sinless and righteous man who will inherit the throne of David…. The ‘Son of man’ is the one who was taken up to heaven and the son of man is he who will return to conquer sin and unrighteousness.

Nowhere does it say that ‘God’ will come or ‘God’ will return … because ‘God’ does not stray from his heavenly ethereal throne.

I don’t think you said explicitly that you think Jesus was God … did you? But in any case it falls that way if you think he was pre-existent.

Who was taken up to heaven BY GOD?

Who was seated on the right hand of GOD?

Who is given power and authority to rule fir a period of time?

Who will return with his powerful angels?

Who will inherit the throne of David… David was a man…?

Why would GOD be any of the above?

If Jesus created all things then why is he only an HEIR to God… To GOD who created all things?
Conundrum for you to solve?
It won’t be solved if you belief Jesus IS GOD?

Thank you for the grace you are giving me. I certainly don't hold anything against those who believe differently.

I haven't found any evidence that it was translated wrong and certainly my position hasn't altered the life changing experience I have had, the miracles that God has done, and the relationship that I have developed with my Creator (as I am sure you could say the same)

But I do want to remind you that, as you noted, your perspective is still in light of The Word having become man.

tt was the Holy Spirit who raised Christ from the dead. It is the Holy Spirit that teaches us all things, leads us and guides and speaks to us. It was The Word that creates all that is seen and those things that are not seen.

As I see it, in Genesis 1 God gave the whole of the earth to mankind and at that point God only worked through covenant with man to legally operate on the earth. Now He is both God and Man and thus will rule forever, legally, on this earth.

At least that is my studied viewpoint.

 

[Brian2]

As I see it, in Genesis 1 God gave the whole of the earth to mankind and at that point God only worked through covenant with man to legally operate on the earth. Now He is both God and Man and thus will rule forever, legally, on this earth.

At least that is my studied viewpoint.

Good point.

 

[Brian2]

And as a case in point, the verses you think say Jesus was pre-existent are not valid translations.

Does that mean that you think your ideas are right despite what the Bible says?
What is wrong with John 17:8?

Nowhere does it say that ‘God’ will come or ‘God’ will return … because ‘God’ does not stray from his heavenly ethereal throne.

God came down to Moses and Moses and the Elders of Israel saw Him. (Ex 24:11)
God sent a messenger (John the Baptist) to prepare the way before Him (God) and the messenger of the Covenant (Jesus) came to His Temple.
God is going to come down to dwell on earth with His people (Rev 21:3)
God is coming to judge the earth (Psalm 96:13)

Who was taken up to heaven BY GOD?

Who was seated on the right hand of GOD?

Who is given power and authority to rule fir a period of time?

Who will return with his powerful angels?

It would get really confusing if it said "God sent God and God is seated next to God and God is given all power and authority by God" It's just the language so we know what is going on. There are other places that tell us about the Son and who He is and the Holy Spirit and who He is.
Guess who is coming with all His holy angels.

Zech 14:1 A day of the LORD is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls.
2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. 3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

Who will inherit the throne of David… David was a man…?

Jesus is a man also, a descendant of David and Son of God who came from heaven to be a man as the scriptures tell us.

If Jesus created all things then why is he only an HEIR to God… To GOD who created all things?
Conundrum for you to solve?
It won’t be solved if you belief Jesus IS GOD?

Jesus is the Son of God and that is why He is the heir.
Jesus is not His Father but the Son has been in His Father, in the form of God, from eternity and gets His life from His Father. That is why the Father is the Father and the Son is the Son, but both have the same divine nature.
The Father created all things through His Son. (Heb 1:1-3)
The Son therefore was not created.
YHWH was alone when He spread out the heavens and spread forth the earth (Isa 44:24)
Jesus laid the foundations of the earth and the heavens are the work of His hands. (Heb 1:10)
The Pre existent Jesus is the Son of God who has the nature of His Father and so is YHWH along with His Father.

 

[Kenny]

Does that mean that you think your ideas are right despite what the Bible says?
What is wrong with John 17:8?



God came down to Moses and Moses and the Elders of Israel saw Him. (Ex 24:11)
God sent a messenger (John the Baptist) to prepare the way before Him (God) and the messenger of the Covenant (Jesus) came to His Temple.
God is going to come down to dwell on earth with His people (Rev 21:3)
God is coming to judge the earth (Psalm 96:13)



It would get really confusing if it said "God sent God and God is seated next to God and God is given all power and authority by God" It's just the language so we know what is going on. There are other places that tell us about the Son and who He is and the Holy Spirit and who He is.
Guess who is coming with all His holy angels.

Zech 14:1 A day of the LORD is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls.
2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. 3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.



Jesus is a man also, a descendant of David and Son of God who came from heaven to be a man as the scriptures tell us.



Jesus is the Son of God and that is why He is the heir.
Jesus is not His Father but the Son has been in His Father, in the form of God, from eternity and gets His life from His Father. That is why the Father is the Father and the Son is the Son, but both have the same divine nature.
The Father created all things through His Son. (Heb 1:1-3)
The Son therefore was not created.
YHWH was alone when He spread out the heavens and spread forth the earth (Isa 44:24)
Jesus laid the foundations of the earth and the heavens are the work of His hands. (Heb 1:10)
The Pre existent Jesus is the Son of God who has the nature of His Father and so is YHWH along with His Father.

Very complete!!

 

[Soapy]

Does that mean that you think your ideas are right despite what the Bible says?
What is wrong with John 17:8?

God came down to Moses and Moses and the Elders of Israel saw Him. (Ex 24:11)
God sent a messenger (John the Baptist) to prepare the way before Him (God) and the messenger of the Covenant (Jesus) came to His Temple.
God is going to come down to dwell on earth with His people (Rev 21:3)
God is coming to judge the earth (Psalm 96:13)

It would get really confusing if it said "God sent God and God is seated next to God and God is given all power and authority by God" It's just the language so we know what is going on. There are other places that tell us about the Son and who He is and the Holy Spirit and who He is.
Guess who is coming with all His holy angels.

Zech 14:1 A day of the LORD is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls.
2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. 3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

Jesus is a man also, a descendant of David and Son of God who came from heaven to be a man as the scriptures tell us.

Jesus is the Son of God and that is why He is the heir.
Jesus is not His Father but the Son has been in His Father, in the form of God, from eternity and gets His life from His Father. That is why the Father is the Father and the Son is the Son, but both have the same divine nature.
The Father created all things through His Son. (Heb 1:1-3)
The Son therefore was not created.
YHWH was alone when He spread out the heavens and spread forth the earth (Isa 44:24)
Jesus laid the foundations of the earth and the heavens are the work of His hands. (Heb 1:10)
The Pre existent Jesus is the Son of God who has the nature of His Father and so is YHWH along with His Father.

• “[Father; Yahweh God,] I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world …” (John 17:14)

Jesus brought the WORD OF GOD as a testament to GOD; a testament to the Father:

• ‘Father, I have given them the WORD YOU GAVE TO ME… and they (Disciples) have received it…
• “… These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.“ (John 14:24)

You are right that Jesus’ life is from the Father and in the Father… that’s why Jesus is ‘Son of God’… because the Father IS GOD.

But the Father also gave us life… that’s why GOD is called ‘Father’:

• ‘He who gives life’
• ‘He who brings into being…’
• ‘He who is the CREATOR’

Trinity say in one breath that the Father created [through the Son!!????]… then you say it was the Son that created!!!

Which is it…? Both statements cannot be true.

The staunch saying is that it was the son who created (crazily dressed as ‘The word of God created…!’). Yet the expansion of it is that it was the FATHER who created all things … because ‘Father’ means…. what, what does ‘Father’ mean?

Hmmm…. Do I see a definition of ‘Son’ that shows:

• “Bringer into being…”
• “Giver of life…”
• “Creator”

Tear your hair out, Trinitarians… that’s a tough one for you! For even when ‘the Son will give life to those whom he deems worthy at the judgement seat, he is entitled as “Eternal Father”’. Why? Because he will determine who will have eternal life or eternal destruction. But that is for the end time… and not before that.

So, how did the Son create all things and yet not carry a title of ‘Father’? Hmmm… a demon question worthy of a demon answer!!!

Oh, by the way… you seem to hang on to verses in the Old Testament which proclaim GOD doing this of that BUT FAIL TO ASCRIBE to the fact that GOD DELEGATED many of those things TO THE SON!

In the Old Testament God was indeed the only saviour. THERE WAS NO ONE ELSE who could carry out the acts attached to salvation. God was WAITING for a man of holiness and sinlessness to act as the sacrifice for the sin of Adam. No man was found among the sons of Adam since sin was carried in and passed on to all human [males] by their Fathers.

‘IN THE FULLNESS OF TIME’… God caused a NEW ADAM to be born BUT NOT OF THE SEED OF A SON OF ADAM, but a mew creation as of the FIRST CREATED MAN, Adam.

The created man was sinless and holy, righteous in all ways … as was Adam until Adam sinned. Adam had been, up to that point, ‘Son of God’!

Why? Because ‘Son of God’ MEANS:

• “Any one who does the works of God,.. anyone who follows the Spirit of God: The Holy Spirit”

To wit, Jesus is called, ‘The Last Adam’

• “Because of the sin of one man [Adam] death came to all men even those who did no wrong according to the law… but by the sacrifice of one sinless man [Jesus], death is destroyed’ (paraphrased)

It can hardly be righteous that ‘GOD, himself’ should be a sacrifice to save his own creation.

It proves nothing to anyone that it is possible for man to live a sinless life….

God cannot sin so what would be the point? ….

God cannot die so what would be the purpose?

And yes, ‘God raised up God’ is silly….

‘God was seated next to God’ is ridiculous and blasphemous….

‘God being anointed by God’ is plain stupid…

‘God putting on flesh’ is pagan…

Yet all the above and more ARE TRINITY BELIEFS!

You said it…!