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Why did the Jews refused to be hellenized by Greeks

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
BTW, if you honestly believe that Jewish women are mostly subservient to their husbands, you certainly do not even get close to understanding them. :eek:

No metis its okay this is a safe place, write whatever you want.













takes notes on metis for his ladyship
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
By the two posts above, if I understand what's being implied by them, I wonder if you two read what I posted correctly? What I was saying, to use different words, is that undoubtedly most Jewish wives are not that willing to just allow themselves to be bossed around by their husbands.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
By the two posts above, if I understand what's being implied by them, I wonder if you two read what I posted correctly? What I was saying, to use different words, is that undoubtedly most Jewish wives are not that willing to just allow themselves to be bossed around by their husbands.

I've never doubted that. But my thread focuses on religious values, not on society.

I will be more direct. As a Jew, (and not from a historical and impartial point of view), what do you think about Cleopatra?
What do you think about her values, and the way she lived her life?
What do you think about her political choices, and her personal choices?

I remind you that she used her sensuousness to gain the allegiance both of Caesar and Marcus Antonius.
 
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xkatz

Well-Known Member
I've never doubted that. But my thread focuses on religious values, not on society.

I will be more direct. As a Jew, (and not from a historical and impartial point of view), what do you think about Cleopatra?
What do you think about her values, and the way she lived her life?
What do you think about her political choices, and her personal choices?

I remind you that she used her sensuousness to gain the allegiance both of Caesar and Marcus Antonius.
An often overly romanticized figure.
 

Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
I've never doubted that. But my thread focuses on religious values, not on society.

I will be more direct. As a Jew, (and not from a historical and impartial point of view), what do you think about Cleopatra?
What do you think about her values, and the way she lived her life?
What do you think about her political choices, and her personal choices?

I remind you that she used her sensuousness to gain the allegiance both of Caesar and Marcus Antonius.

She reminds me of Hillary Clinton.:D

Btw, have you heard of Bathsheba?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I've never doubted that. But my thread focuses on religious values, not on society.

I will be more direct. As a Jew, (and not from a historical and impartial point of view), what do you think about Cleopatra?
What do you think about her values, and the way she lived her life?
What do you think about her political choices, and her personal choices?

I remind you that she used her sensuousness to gain the allegiance both of Caesar and Marcus Antonius.

I really don't have any particular opinion one way or another about her, nor am I certain that all that is mentioned about her is accurate. Let me just mention that there are strong women mentioned in Torah and Tanakh, and we've had plenty of strong women since.

My favorite one in more modern times, whom one of my granddaughters is named after, is Hannah Senesh, who's story was made into a movie called "Hannah's War". Here's some info on her that you might find interesting: Hannah Szenes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I really don't have any particular opinion one way or another about her, nor am I certain that all that is mentioned about her is accurate. Let me just mention that there are strong women mentioned in Torah and Tanakh, and we've had plenty of strong women since.

My favorite one in more modern times, whom one of my granddaughters is named after, is Hannah Senesh, who's story was made into a movie called "Hannah's War". Here's some info on her that you might find interesting: Hannah Szenes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I was underlining that Cleopatra used her beauty to obtain what she wanted from men. So in the vital force a woman can express with her beauty, I can see God's plans. The woman's body is the most perfect creation of God because it turns men on (sorry for the explicitness).
 
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xkatz

Well-Known Member
I was underlining that Cleopatra used her beauty to obtain what she wanted from men. So in the vital force a woman can express with her beauty, I can see God's plans. The woman's body is the most perfect creation of God because it turns men on (sorry for the explicitness).
So basically you think it's righteous to use sexual seduction for political gains? :sarcastic
 

Moishe3rd

Yehudi
I realize that you folk are just having fun playing around with your particular pride and prejudices but, this conversation is so historically odd...

The Jews DID NOT reject Hellenism.
Look people, I am an (ultra) Orthodox Jew who happily celebrates Chanukah every year; celebrates the victories of the Maccabees; and the miracle of the Chanukah lights.
However, the fact is that Israel WAS Hellenized.
Jews, as always, were quite happy to throw off the yoke of Torah and get all down and dirty with the fabulous hedonism of the Greek/ Middle Eastern Party!
According to all accounts, secular and religious history, it was just Mattathias and his sons who got all hot and bothered about worshiping Greek idols and playing naked games with the boys...
We're talking about six guys here folks.
So - what happened?
By all accounts, the Seleucid Greeks and the Ptolemaic Greeks (Syria to the North and Egypt to the South) were constantly fighting and Israel was caught up in the middle.
So, the Hellenized Jews were uncomfortable being pawns in these dynastic struggles.
They just wanted to go along and get along.
The Maccabees revolted against the Selucids at one point, gathered some followers, and won!
Other Jews said, Hell yeah, count me in.
However, what is often a missed point is that part of the Greek/ Selucid armies were Hellenized Jews who had no interest in those bible thumping fundamentalists taking over and, a long war was fought and re-fought and re-fought again, with the the descendants of the Maccabees, the Hasmonean Jewish kings, constantly allying themselves with one side or the other against each other in a never ending quest for control of Israel.
The Maccabean Revolt and the Wars against the Hellenized Jews effectively ended when the Roman Pompey was invited to ally with the last Hasmonean king against his rival and, Pompey came to Jerusalem.... and stayed, effectively putting Israel under Roman control and ending the reign of the Maccabees (the Herodian kings were not actual Jews, but that's another story).

Jewish history is one long story of falling in love with "Hellenization."
And, history demonstrates that G-d, in one way or another, has, sooner or later, put a stop to that nonsense and directed His People to reclaim the Torah and once more follow the path that G-d Chose for them at Mt. Sinai.
 
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