Why did the world reject the Messiah when He Did come?

[Rival]

Because they made it so figurative that it was not recognizable.

And conveniently none of the verifiable things Tanakh says Moshiach will do, do they say he ever did. One can't prove a virgin birth or riding a donkey (or two) into Jerusalem, but building a Temple and bringing back the lost tribes can be verified. How coincidental their failed man did nothing that we could actually prove.

 

[firedragon]

Firstly I am but a person in life, very limited in knowledge. From my studies so far, No, a day could be a day, it could be a year, it could be a thousand years. In prophecy it seems to represent mainly a year.

Also we have to consider that a Biblical year is only 360 days.

I see all Numbers in Scripture have deep and hidden meanings that are inexhaustible in range. 40 is an example which shows up in many Biblical stories and events and in this age it was 40 years that Baha'u'llah received and gave divine Revelation.

But this is far beyond my knowledge, as each word in scripture can have multiple meanings, each passage 70 meanings. I see Gods Messages contains understanding for each person to extract.

Regards Tony

Think about it. You're saying a year is 360 days in the bible. But you calculate based on muhammeds advent and the year of hijri while the muhammedan year is 354 days. It's a complete mismatch.

You have adopted the millerian calculations but dropped everything else in their movement, and added that to Muhammed. You have made a 360 year calculation based on the 1260 being 3.5 years but then that makes it days, not year. But you have then made a day into years.

Was the universe made in 6 days as the bible says describing the beginning and end of day, yowm, or was it 6 years? Was it 360 day years? There is no evidence that the jews practiced a 360 day year. It was others. So if as you say the biblical year has 360 days how come the jews did not practice it?

1260 into 360 day year is 1242 years in julian calendar years, so when you add that to the year of hijri it becomes 1864, not 1844.

You have taken the verses to make the calculation, but do you also adopt everything on escatology revelations teaches?

Dont get offended, but it definitely seems like theres a lot of cherry picking and mashing a few things to eisegesis, not exegesis.

This was your topic brother. So I didnt mean to bring any of this up.

The Quran makes clear two different calendar years. The solar and lunar both. So if you are to make a calculation based on muhammed why have you not adopted any of that?

Have you considered on what basis baha has decided that the calculation should begin with the advent of Islam? And how in the world did the year of hijri become the time of advent of Islam? There are two discrepancies here. Think about it. Baha adopts the Quran but the Quran says abraham called his followers muslims and the religion of islam is millath ibrahim. So on what basis can you adopt the Quran and yet again claim the advent of Islam happened in 622? Either you drop the Quran, muhammed, and make another calculation or embrace them all and drop this calculation because you cannot have the cake and eat it.

The second discrepancy is if you are not to believe in the quran and completely believe Muhammed invented islam and in bahas words in his book about this page 53 onwards "advent of islam" happened in 610 a.d, not hijri. So how in the world would that change to 622 and then 628, first being a hijri year which is irrelevant to the statement and then another thesis of "firm establishment of islam"?

Sorry, I'm typing off the phone so there maybe many typos and unstructured writing.

Bottomline is this theory is an act of cherry picking from all over the place but not staying consistent to any single source be it the bible or the Quran. Or in bahas words St. John and Muhammed. Again, it's a mashup of Ezekiel, daniel, revelations and strange interpretation of a so called advent of Islam but not consistent to any of the books as a whole. Not a single one.

Dont take it personally. This forum is made to discuss and I definitely dont mean to insult you or your faith in any way.

Peace.

 

[CG Didymus]

How about Mithra. Is Mithra Christ?

Saul and David were anointed also, and a few others, I wonder if Baha'i think they were also the Messiahs/manifestations?

 

[CG Didymus]

And conveniently none of the verifiable things Tanakh says Moshiach will do, do they say he ever did. One can't prove a virgin birth or riding a donkey (or two) into Jerusalem, but building a Temple and bringing back the lost tribes can be verified. How coincidental their failed man did nothing that we could actually prove.

The Baha'i view goes beyond Jesus and includes Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah. Baha'is claim all prophesies from all religions have been fulfilled in the coming of The Bab and Baha'u'llah. When the Baha'is talk about missing the Messiah when he did come, they mean all of those people they claim were Messiahs.

 

[Spartan]

We can't miss someone who hasn't come.

The second temple was destroyed because Jews hated without reason. When we have learned to love without reason, the Messiah will come.

Sorry, Messiah Jesus has already come, and right on schedule.

 

[Rival]

The Baha'i view goes beyond Jesus and includes Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah. Baha'is claim all prophesies from all religions have been fulfilled in the coming of The Bab and Baha'u'llah. When the Baha'is talk about missing the Messiah when he did come, they mean all of those people they claim were Messiahs.

Anyone who believes that has no idea what the Tanakh says the Moshiach is.

 

[CG Didymus]

Think about it. You're saying a year is 360 days in the bible. But you calculate based on muhammeds advent and the year of hijri while the muhammedan year is 354 days. It's a complete mismatch.

You have adopted the millerian calculations but dropped everything else in their movement, and added that to Muhammed. You have made a 360 year calculation based on the 1260 being 3.5 years but then that makes it days, not year. But you have then made a day into years.

Was the universe made in 6 days as the bible says describing the beginning and end of day, yowm, or was it 6 years? Was it 360 day years? There is no evidence that the jews practiced a 360 day year. It was others. So if as you say the biblical year has 360 days how come the jews did not practice it?

1260 into 360 day year is 1242 years in julian calendar years, so when you add that to the year of hijri it becomes 1864, not 1844.

You have taken the verses to make the calculation, but do you also adopt everything on escatology revelations teaches?

Dont get offended, but it definitely seems like theres a lot of cherry picking and mashing a few things to eisegesis, not exegesis.

This was your topic brother. So I didnt mean to bring any of this up.

The Quran makes clear two different calendar years. The solar and lunar both. So if you are to make a calculation based on muhammed why have you not adopted any of that?

Have you considered on what basis baha has decided that the calculation should begin with the advent of Islam? And how in the world did the year of hijri become the time of advent of Islam? There are two discrepancies here. Think about it. Baha adopts the Quran but the Quran says abraham called his followers muslims and the religion of islam is millath ibrahim. So on what basis can you adopt the Quran and yet again claim the advent of Islam happened in 622? Either you drop the Quran, muhammed, and make another calculation or embrace them all and drop this calculation because you cannot have the cake and eat it.

The second discrepancy is if you are not to believe in the quran and completely believe Muhammed invented islam and in bahas words in his book about this page 53 onwards "advent of islam" happened in 610 a.d, not hijri. So how in the world would that change to 622 and then 628, first being a hijri year which is irrelevant to the statement and then another thesis of "firm establishment of islam"?

Sorry, I'm typing off the phone so there maybe many typos and unstructured writing.

Bottomline is this theory is an act of cherry picking from all over the place but not staying consistent to any single source be it the bible or the Quran. Or in bahas words St. John and Muhammed. Again, it's a mashup of Ezekiel, daniel, revelations and strange interpretation of a so called advent of Islam but not consistent to any of the books as a whole. Not a single one.

Dont take it personally. This forum is made to discuss and I definitely dont mean to insult you or your faith in any way.

Peace.

Thank you for bringing those things up. My only problem was that 1260 days are mentioned I think twice. Once for the Two Witnesses and again for the woman after she has given birth to a son. But then 3 1/2 days, 42 months (twice) and a time, times and half a time are all converted to equal the 1260 years. Why so many references to the 1260 year "prophecy" that in each case starts with the Hegira and ends with the declaration of The Bab? And one of the 42 month references was for a beast? Then after that beast comes the 666 beast? And the Baha'is make all of them starting in 622 and ending in 1844? All of these prophecies started and stopped at the same time?

If the Messiah has come and all the prophecies have been fulfilled, I think it should be a little more obvious. Thanks again for your input and the "advent" of Islam being 610 ad is an interesting point. Why not that date? Was it reverse engineered from 1844 to see what significant event happened 1260 years before that? Lunar years solar years and years that got the Baha'is to something they could use and 622 was it? But then again, I guess the Islamic calendar starts at that date and at 1260 it ends up being 1844. But the same 1260 prophecy 6 times in Revelation? That's hard to believe.

 

[CG Didymus]

Anyone who believes that has no idea what the Tanakh says the Moshiach is.

I hate to say it, but as you probably already know, Christians, and now Baha'is, will tell you what the Tanakh says the Moshiach is. But then Baha'is turn right around and tell Christians who Jesus really was. Among other things, that Jesus is dead and buried and did not rise from the dead and is not coming back... it is the "spirit of Christ", not Jesus, that is coming back and has come back as their prophet, Baha'u'llah.

 

[CG Didymus]

I have no opinion on Mithra, I have never looked into it.

Christ tell us how to look for the fruits of the Spirit, thus it again comes back to your choice.

Edit: A quick look, my answer is no.

What is important is this age, is why have we rejected the Messiah?

Regards Tony

Mithra is the Zoroastrian angelic Divinity (yazata) of Covenant and Oath. In addition to being the Divinity of Contracts, Mithra is also a judicial figure, an all-seeing Protector of Truth, and the Guardian of Cattle, the Harvest and of The Waters.

Yeah, who cares about Zoroastrian mythical gods and prophets. Oops, Baha'is do.

 

[CG Didymus]

Daniel was not a person and never was in Babylon.. Daniel was written by a committee of Jews during the time of the Maccabees and the Greek ruler Antiochus IV Epiphanes. around 167 BC.

Antiochus was the original Abomination of Desolation when he defiled the Temple. You know this history, don't you?

Antiochus IV Epiphanes was the eighth in a succession of twenty-six kings who ruled from 175—164 BC over the Syrian section of Alexander’s empire.

He is referred to as the “little horn” in Daniel 8:9. The name Epiphanes means the “Illustrious One,” although his contemporaries nicknamed him Epimanes, meaning “madman.”1

He differs in many respects with the “little horn” of Daniel Chapter seven seeing that “the little horn of 7:8 appears in the context of the fourth kingdom (Rome), while the little horn of 8:9 appears in the context of the third kingdom (Greece).”2 Yet taken as a whole Antiochus IV Epiphanes is undoubtedly one of the greatest prototypes of the Antichrist in all of God’s Word.

The legitimacy of Daniel is extremely important here, because Christians and Baha'is use the prophecies in Daniel.

Daniel comes to 1260 via the edict to rebuild the temple of 457BC and the 2300 years before the sanctuary was again cleansed. 2300-457+1 (as no year 0) = AD1844, or AH1260.

That's somewhat problematic if there was no Daniel and the book was written in 167BC.

 

[CG Didymus]

The day for a year principal was used by Biblical Scholars well before the Bab and Baha'u'llah gave their Messages as you can research at this link; Day-year principle - Wikipedia It was first used in Christian exposition in 380 AD by Ticonius.

Revelation 9:3 And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months.
Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

So 5 months is 150 days so that is 150 years that this torment went on? Then Satan is bound for 1000 years which is 360,000 days which is 360,000 years? Is that the calculation you get?

 

[CG Didymus]

Thanks trailblazer, that is the point that was being made, that it was not a convenient interpretation used only by Baha'i to prove the Baha'i Faith, that the method was well used prior to the Messages of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

William Miller expected Jesus to return, but it was The Bab. Do the Bible prophecies say that the Messiah will come on that day or the Messiah's forerunner? I know The Bab is a great prophet to the Baha'is, but where is his religion? Who studies his book? Was he the One, the Return of Christ or was Baha'u'llah? So why isn't there more focus on the prophecies that point to when Baha'u'llah declared?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Because they made it so figurative that it was not recognizable.

The question is then, why did they find the event when others did not?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

picking from all over the place but not staying consistent to any single source be it the bible or the Quran.

Need time to reply. Quick reply is the Bottom line is that it shows Allah embraces all Faiths, with prophecy covering all bases.

Regards Tony

 

[sooda]

The legitimacy of Daniel is extremely important here, because Christians and Baha'is use the prophecies in Daniel.

That's somewhat problematic if there was no Daniel and the book was written in 167BC.

Yes. I know.Many Christians hang their hats on Daniel.. and its a shame. There was NO Daniel.. The whole thing was written in 167 BC.

"Daniel" is NOT considered one of the prophets.

Daniel is excluded from the Hebrew Bible's canon of the prophets, which was closed around 200 BC.

 

[CG Didymus]

The question is then, why did they find the event when others did not?

Regards Tony

Who, other than Shia Moslems found The Bab?

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes. I know.Many Christians hang their hats on Daniel.. and its a shame. There was NO Daniel.. The whole thing was written in 167 BC.

"Daniel" is NOT considered one of the prophets.

Daniel is excluded from the Hebrew Bible's canon of the prophets, which was closed around 200 BC.

I could see how a new religion like the Baha'i Faith could say that the Bible and other religious books are old, nobody really knows who wrote them and so on. And the Baha'i do use that argument at times. But, when it comes to prophecies that they can use, suddenly the Bible is dead on and extremely accurate. And speaking of being dead on accurate, I've read that Daniel is very accurate on things that are going to happen... up to a point, then not so much. And, because of that accuracy, it is believed that those "prophecies" were telling of things that had already had happened. Then things start getting off. So that's why some believe that Daniel was written at the later date.

But who out of the Fundamental Christians, and I guess some Orthodox Jews, and the Baha'is, is going to believe that? Especially now the Baha'is, they need Daniel's prophecies. Ironically, they probably have no problem saying that having his friends thrown into a fiery furnace and not being burned to death is just a "symbolic" story and has no historical truth to it.

 

[Spartan]

Yes. I know.Many Christians hang their hats on Daniel.. and its a shame. There was NO Daniel.. The whole thing was written in 167 BC.

Not a chance. That's the spin from know-nothing liberals who try to deny the prophecies of Daniel and the supernatural.

Alexander the Great and Daniel

JOSEPHUS [Antiquities, 11.8.5] mentions that Alexander the Great had designed to punish the Jews for their fidelity to Darius, but that Jaddua (332 B.C.), the high priest, met him at the head of a procession and averted his wrath by showing him Daniel's prophecy that a Grecian monarch should overthrow Persia. Certain it is, Alexander favored the Jews, and JOSEPHUS' statement gives an explanation of the fact; at least it shows that the Jews in JOSEPHUS' days believed that Daniel was extant in Alexander's days, long before the Maccabees.

"Daniel" is NOT considered one of the prophets.

The Lord Jesus Christ spoke of Daniel "the prophet" (Matthew 24:15; Mark 13:14).

The Talmud refers to Daniel as a Prophet

"Hatach. Hatach is another name for the prophet Daniel. He was called Hatach (related to the Hebrew word for "cut") because he was "cut down," demoted from his position of greatness, which he held at the courts of the previous kings" (Megillah 15a).

The Prophet Daniel found in the Dead Sea Scrolls:

It is interesting to note that every chapter of Daniel is represented in these manuscripts, except for Daniel 12. However, this does not mean that the Book lacked the final chapter at Qumran, since Dan 12:10 is quoted in the Florilegium (4Q174) - (Dead Sea Scrolls), which explicitly tells us that it is written in the Book of Daniel the Prophet.

Daniel is excluded from the Hebrew Bible's canon of the prophets, which was closed around 200 BC.

Nope. The Book of Daniel would not be out of place in the prophetic section, Joshua, Judges and Kings are included in the Prophets, and the translators of the Septuagint version of the Jewish Scriptures placed Daniel there also. Joseph D. Wilson, Did Daniel Write Daniel, page 84.

The present position of the Book (of Daniel) in the Hebrew Canon is not its original position. We have it on the authority of the Jewish historian Josephus that that at the close of the first century A.D. the Canon of the Old Testament books was differently arranged from that at present accepted among the Jews; and it is also evident from the writings of the Early Fathers that a change must have been made in the arrangement of the Jewish Canon between the middle of the third and the end of the fourth century A.D. - Charles Boutflower, In and Around the Book of Daniel, pages 276-277.

Josephus in Contra Apionem 1:8 writes, We have but twenty-two (books) containing the history of all time, books that are justly believed in; and of these, five are the books of Moses, which comprise the laws and earliest traditions from the creation of mankind down to his death. From the death of Moses to the reigh=n of Artaxerxes, King of Persia, successor of Xerxes, the prophets who succeeded Moses wrote the history of the events that occurred in their own time, in thirteen books. The remaining four documents comprise hymns to God and the practical precepts to men.

Daniel was included in those 13 books.

Professor R.D. Wilson states: "All the direct evidence, then, that precedes the year 200 A.D., supports the view that Daniel was in the earliest times among the Prophets.Thus Origen, at A.D. 250, and Jerome, at A.D. 400, both of whom were taught by Jewish Rabbis and claim to have gathered their information from Jewish sources, put Daniel among the Prophets and separate the strictly prophetical books from those which are more properly called historical." - R. D. Wilson, Studies in the Book of Daniel, page 49.

"The Sanhedrin of the second century B.C. was composed of men of the type of John Hyrcanus; men famed for their piety and learning; men who were heirs of all the proud traditions of the Jewish faith, and themselves the sons of successors of the heroes of the noble Maccabean revolt. And yet we are asked to believe (by the critics of Daniel) that these men, with their extremely strict views of inspiration and their intense reverence for their sacred writings.used their authority to smuggle into the Jewish Canon a book which, ex hypothesi, was a forgery, a literary fraud, and a religious novel of recent date." R. Anderson, Daniel in the Critics Den, pages 104-105

 

[sooda]

Not a chance. That's the spin from know-nothing liberals who try to deny the prophecies of Daniel and the supernatural.

Alexander the Great and Daniel

JOSEPHUS [Antiquities, 11.8.5] mentions that Alexander the Great had designed to punish the Jews for their fidelity to Darius, but that Jaddua (332 B.C.), the high priest, met him at the head of a procession and averted his wrath by showing him Daniel's prophecy that a Grecian monarch should overthrow Persia. Certain it is, Alexander favored the Jews, and JOSEPHUS' statement gives an explanation of the fact; at least it shows that the Jews in JOSEPHUS' days believed that Daniel was extant in Alexander's days, long before the Maccabees.



The Lord Jesus Christ spoke of Daniel "the prophet" (Matthew 24:15; Mark 13:14).

The Talmud refers to Daniel as a Prophet

"Hatach. Hatach is another name for the prophet Daniel. He was called Hatach (related to the Hebrew word for "cut") because he was "cut down," demoted from his position of greatness, which he held at the courts of the previous kings" (Megillah 15a).

The Prophet Daniel found in the Dead Sea Scrolls:

It is interesting to note that every chapter of Daniel is represented in these manuscripts, except for Daniel 12. However, this does not mean that the Book lacked the final chapter at Qumran, since Dan 12:10 is quoted in the Florilegium (4Q174) - (Dead Sea Scrolls), which explicitly tells us that it is written in the Book of Daniel the Prophet.



Nope. The Book of Daniel would not be out of place in the prophetic section, Joshua, Judges and Kings are included in the Prophets, and the translators of the Septuagint version of the Jewish Scriptures placed Daniel there also. Joseph D. Wilson, Did Daniel Write Daniel, page 84.

The present position of the Book (of Daniel) in the Hebrew Canon is not its original position. We have it on the authority of the Jewish historian Josephus that that at the close of the first century A.D. the Canon of the Old Testament books was differently arranged from that at present accepted among the Jews; and it is also evident from the writings of the Early Fathers that a change must have been made in the arrangement of the Jewish Canon between the middle of the third and the end of the fourth century A.D. - Charles Boutflower, In and Around the Book of Daniel, pages 276-277.

Josephus in Contra Apionem 1:8 writes, We have but twenty-two (books) containing the history of all time, books that are justly believed in; and of these, five are the books of Moses, which comprise the laws and earliest traditions from the creation of mankind down to his death. From the death of Moses to the reigh=n of Artaxerxes, King of Persia, successor of Xerxes, the prophets who succeeded Moses wrote the history of the events that occurred in their own time, in thirteen books. The remaining four documents comprise hymns to God and the practical precepts to men.

Daniel was included in those 13 books.

Professor R.D. Wilson states: "All the direct evidence, then, that precedes the year 200 A.D., supports the view that Daniel was in the earliest times among the Prophets.Thus Origen, at A.D. 250, and Jerome, at A.D. 400, both of whom were taught by Jewish Rabbis and claim to have gathered their information from Jewish sources, put Daniel among the Prophets and separate the strictly prophetical books from those which are more properly called historical." - R. D. Wilson, Studies in the Book of Daniel, page 49.

"The Sanhedrin of the second century B.C. was composed of men of the type of John Hyrcanus; men famed for their piety and learning; men who were heirs of all the proud traditions of the Jewish faith, and themselves the sons of successors of the heroes of the noble Maccabean revolt. And yet we are asked to believe (by the critics of Daniel) that these men, with their extremely strict views of inspiration and their intense reverence for their sacred writings.used their authority to smuggle into the Jewish Canon a book which, ex hypothesi, was a forgery, a literary fraud, and a religious novel of recent date." R. Anderson, Daniel in the Critics Den, pages 104-105

Who is Ezekiel's Daniel? | Bible.org

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Mithra is the Zoroastrian angelic Divinity (yazata) of Covenant and Oath. In addition to being the Divinity of Contracts, Mithra is also a judicial figure, an all-seeing Protector of Truth, and the Guardian of Cattle, the Harvest and of The Waters.

Yeah, who cares about Zoroastrian mythical gods and prophets. Oops, Baha'is do.

I said I do not see Mithra was 'Christ', nothing else.

The rest is your thoughts.

Regards Tony