Why did the world reject the Messiah when He Did come?

[TransmutingSoul]

Hi Tony. Good to see you again.

First, as I have said many times, I find this spiritualization of the prophecies to be simply dishonest. If it says, "Nation shall not life up sword against nation," there is nothing spiritual about that -- it's talking about the cessation of all earthly wars (which has not yet been fulfilled).

Second, once you remove the prophecies to the spiritual realm, you can no longer look to see whether they are fulfilled or not. When they are earthly, it is easy to say, "Yes this has happened, " or "No, it has not." But not so if it is spiritual -- it is much more nebulous. Who can say whether there is spiritual peace or not??? You can make an argument both directions. To me that is sly. It is a way to weasel out of being held responsible for the fulfillment of the prophecies. You might as well not have them in the first place. Do you see what I am saying?

Yes 100% I see what you are saying. I see prophecy becomes our test of the Spirit, it enables us to search deep within our own selves and examine what we believe, a chance to change what needs to be changed.

You will note Christ says one of the greatest tests of a Prophet/ Messenger is time. Thus is because material unfoldment of prophecy does not happen in a chronological order. To me the Bible is timeless and I see it talks of events that transpire throughout all time lines. Some big events yet to come and may not be far off.

Thus I see Peace was brought, it is enevitable and will unfold, but maybe we will not see it in our lifetime here on earth? We also may! Baha'u'llah has given all that is required, we have to ask why have we not embraced it as yet?

Big topic, happy to talk about it anytime. Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm not sure I understand the question. Why would there need to be verses stating such, when it is the only view that makes common sense? Either you are the messiah and you fulfill the prophecies, or you don't fulfill all the prophecies and you are not the messiah.

We need the verses to know what the prophecies are.

Also, there are many prophecies about what will happen during the Messianic Age, but unless those prophecies say that the Messiah will fulfill those Himself there is no reason to believe He would.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Thus I see Peace was brought, it is enevitable and will unfold, but maybe we will not see it in our lifetime here on earth?

I cannot help but see this a convoluted form of self-deception. Logically, you cannot say that peace was brought (past tense) and then say it will unfold (future tense). It's either here aready, is presently unfolding, or has yet to unfold. Those are the only three choices.

Second, there is no reason to assume that it has begun unfolding already. The last century saw WWI and WWII, including the Atomic Bomb -- certainly the two most deadly wars in history. So we saw an increase in war, not a decrease or "unfolding" of Peace.

 

[Trailblazer]

If it says, "Nation shall not life up sword against nation," there is nothing spiritual about that -- it's talking about the cessation of all earthly wars (which has not yet been fulfilled).

No, it has not been fulfilled yet, but unless there are prophecies that say it will be fulfilled during the lifetime of the Messiah there is no reason to assume that would be the case.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

We need the verses to know what the prophecies are.

Also, there are many prophecies about what will happen during the Messianic Age, but unless those prophecies say that the Messiah will fulfill those Himself there is no reason to believe He would.

Most of the prophecies are about the Messianic age, not the messiah himself. The prophecies about the messianic age will be fulfilled during the reign of the messiah, but will not necessarily be things he does directly. There are actually very, very few prophecies about the messiah.

He will be "David" (David being the King of Israel, who ruled from Jerusalem).
He will be a Jew and a descendant of David's line (patrilineally).
He will bring all the Jews back to the Land of Israel from out of the Diaspora.
He will usher in an era of worldwide peace
He will rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem

In some of these cases, some Jews feel that by beginning to do these things ourselves, we are preparing for the coming of the messiah, who will finish the task.

If you have difficulty with any of those prophecies and need verses, let me up, and I'll try to research it for you.

 

[Trailblazer]

Most of the prophecies are about the Messianic age, not the messiah himself. There are actually very, very few prophecies about the messiah.

He will be "David" (David being the King of Israel, who ruled from Jerusalem).
He will be a Jew and a descendant of David's line (patrilineally).
He will bring all the Jews back to the Land of Israel from out of the Diaspora.
He will usher in an era of worldwide peace
He will rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem

If you have difficulty with any of those prophecies and need verses, let me up, and I'll try to research it for you.

I agree that most of the prophecies are about the Messianic Age, but there are also prophecies that were fulfilled by the coming of the Messiah, what happened before He came and while He was here, and those can be used to identify Him as the Messiah.

Many of these prophecies you listed have verses that can be interpreted in more than one way, so that is why the actual verses are necessary to read. If it is not too much trouble you can post them.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I cannot help but see this a convoluted form of self-deception. Logically, you cannot say that peace was brought (past tense) and then say it will unfold (future tense). It's either here aready, is presently unfolding, or has yet to unfold. Those are the only three choices.

Second, there is no reason to assume that it has begun unfolding already. The last century saw WWI and WWII, including the Atomic Bomb -- certainly the two most deadly wars in history. So we saw an increase in war, not a decrease or "unfolding" of Peace.

There is not deception, the details are available.

It is unfolding, the seed planted. All that Baha'u'llah offered can be seen in the mind and thought of humanity.

Baha'u'llah offered the most great peace, when it was rejected by neglect of response, then Baha'u'llah offered the Lesser peace with all the required detail.

Happy to discuss.

Regards Tony

 

[IndigoChild5559]

No, it has not been fulfilled yet, but unless there are prophecies that say it will be fulfilled during the lifetime of the Messiah there is no reason to assume that would be the case.

Isaiah 11
6 The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling[a] together;
and a little child will lead them.
7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.
9 They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea.
10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his resting place will be glorious.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I agree that most of the prophecies are about the Messianic Age, but there are also prophecies that were fulfilled by the coming of the Messiah, what happened before He came and while He was here, and those can be used to identify Him as the Messiah.

Many of these prophecies you listed have verses that can be interpreted in more than one way, so that is why the actual verses are necessary to read. If it is not too much trouble you can post them.

Can you give me one or two of the prophecies that are supposed to be fulfilled by the messiah BEFORE he comes, along with their verses in the Tanakh? (I realize you probably have these things in your Baha'i texts, but we need to use texts that we both agree on.)

 

[IndigoChild5559]

There is not deception, the details are available.

It is unfolding, the seed planted. All that Baha'u'llah offered can be seen in the mind and thought of humanity.

Baha'u'llah offered the most great peace, when it was rejected by neglect of response, then Baha'u'llah offered the Lesser peace with all the required detail.

Happy to discuss.

Regards Tony

Can you please reply to the arguments that I gave? I have responded to this, and you have not yet replied to what I said.

 

[Trailblazer]

Can you give me one or two of the prophecies that are supposed to be fulfilled by the messiah BEFORE he comes, along with their verses in the Tanakh? (I realize you probably have these things in your Baha'i texts, but we need to use texts that we both agree on.)

Okay, I will try to find some but I will have to first locate them in the Old Testament and then you or I could cross reference them in the Tanakh.

I am not sure how many verses referring to BEFORE He comes are in the Old Testament, many of those are in the New Testament. There are probably more Old Testament verses that refer to AFTER He comes and what He did while He was here.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Okay, I will try to find some but I will have to first locate them in the Old Testament and then you or I could cross reference them in the Tanakh.

I am not sure how many verses referring to BEFORE He comes are in the Old Testament, many of those are in the New Testament. There are probably more Old Testament verses that refer to AFTER He comes and what He did while He was here.

"Old Testament" is the Christian word for the Tanakh. It is an offensive term to Jews, since we don't see these texts as being old or outdated.

Remember that there is nothing authoritative about the Christian Scriptures (the "New" Testament) for me as a Jew.

The word Tanakh is basically an annogram TNK:
T: Torah (Law, the first five books)
N: Nevi'im (Prophets}
K: Ketuvim (Writings)

This gives not only the order of which the books were accepted into canon in history, but also the degree of contact with God, i.e.:
Torah--God speaks audibly to Moses
Prophets--God speaks in dreams and visions
Writings--God merely inspires

 

[Trailblazer]

"Old Testament" is the Christian word for the Tanakh. It is an offensive term to Jews, since we don't see these texts as being old or outdated.

Remember that there is nothing authoritative about the Christian Scriptures (the "New" Testament) for me as a Jew.

As you know, Baha'is consider the New Testament to be valid scripture, but we do not consider it as authentic as the Torah.

From the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh:

The Four Gospels were written after Him [Christ]. John, Luke, Mark and Matthew - these four wrote after Christ what they remembered of His utterances.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)

...the Torah that God hath confirmed consists of the exact words that streamed forth at the bidding of God from the tongue of Him Who conversed with Him (Moses).
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)

From the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá

Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets to Moses, may peace be upon Him, or that to which He was bidden. But the stories are historical narratives and were written after Moses, may peace be upon Him.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)

Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets unto Moses, may peace be upon Him, and in that which He was commanded to do.... The glorious Book, the Mighty Decree, is what was in the Tablets which Moses, upon Him be peace, brought from Mount Sinai, and that which He proclaimed unto the Children of Israel, in accordance with the explicit text of those Tablets.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)
The Bible

I wish I had more time to study the Torah and Jewish history, as I said to my Jewish poster friend two years ago, but I never seem to have time.

Much is written about the Torah and Jewish history in Baha'i World Faith in this chapter: RELIGION AND CIVILIZATION

I have not even had time to read all of that, but I would be interested in your opinion.
It is 2:30 AM and I have not even had dinner yet so that is how my days go.
I'll catch you later.

 

[sooda]

No, it has not been fulfilled yet, but unless there are prophecies that say it will be fulfilled during the lifetime of the Messiah there is no reason to assume that would be the case.

Within a generation or 40 years from the crucifixion. Study first century history to understand their symbolism.

 

[sooda]

Okay, I will try to find some but I will have to first locate them in the Old Testament and then you or I could cross reference them in the Tanakh.

I am not sure how many verses referring to BEFORE He comes are in the Old Testament, many of those are in the New Testament. There are probably more Old Testament verses that refer to AFTER He comes and what He did while He was here.

The writers of the Gospels were embellishing Jesus.. to PROVE him. Created a lot of confusion.

 

[kjw47]

The above is just a bunch of highly bigoted statements based on acute judgmentalism, whereas you simply are all so willing to disobey what Jesus taught about not judging others, thus preferring to blindly follow your JW masters who teach that what should clearly be immoral under Jesus' teachings is somehow moral. We have a phrase for people acting like that here in the States and it goes "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones".

And what I don't see in your posts is agape, namely Jesus' love for all of us and that we should love him, God, the Holy Spirit, and all of God's creation. My denomination teaches that this is essential-- too bad yours mainly seems to teach judgmentalism towards your fellow Christians to the point of even questioning their salvation. It is so utterly arrogant and immoral for you and your JW masters to do this in defiance of what's written in the New Testament.

Therefore, maybe seek out a denomination that teaches agape as a way of life like most other denominations do, and then consider letting God do the judging as Jesus taught.

If one is not serving the true living God--They do not have God. I have been sharing facts on this matter. No matter what kind of love one has. I say every one in Noahs day loved their family and friends as did Adolf Hitler. Jesus says that love goes to ones enemies as well. I found the religion serving the true living God. The God Israel served all through From Moses on up until today( not correctly many x) The God Jesus teaches-His Father. Most are confused by a capitol G God in the last line of John 1:1 and worship to a mortal Jesus is error. Its misleading 2 billion of my human brothers and sisters away from the path Jesus spoke of. And you want me to say nothing? It just takes believing Jesus.

 

[sooda]

If one is not serving the true living God--They do not have God. I have been sharing facts on this matter. No matter what kind of love one has. I say every one in Noahs day loved their family and friends as did Adolf Hitler. Jesus says that love goes to ones enemies as well. I found the religion serving the true living God. The God Israel served all through From Moses on up until today( not correctly many x) The God Jesus teaches-His Father. Most are confused by a capitol G God in the last line of John 1:1 and worship to a mortal Jesus is error. Its misleading 2 billion of my human brothers and sisters away from the path Jesus spoke of. And you want me to say nothing? It just takes believing Jesus.

The story of Noah is a myth. There was NO global flood..So what do YOU think the message of this didactic literature was meant to convey?

 

[kjw47]

The story of Noah is a myth. There was NO global flood..So what do YOU think the message of this didactic literature was meant to convey?

Gods word teaches there was a flood. Much of Gods written word has been proven true by archeologists.

 

[sooda]

Gods word teaches there was a flood. Much of Gods written word has been proven true by archeologists.

Neither geologists nor archaeologists have ever found any evidence for a global flood.

Do you believe the curse of Ham and it justification for the enslavement of blacks?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If one is not serving the true living God--They do not have God.

The question is whether one can be confused and make mistakes about the nature of the one true God, and yet still serve him, because one is serving him as best as one can. I believe this is possible. For example, I think Christians are incredibly confused, believing that a mere man is God, which is really a terrible, horrible thing. Yet I think that despite this, Christians still serve the one true God.