lukethethird
unknown member
Why did Ukraine allow itself to become Nato's pawn, and what did Ukraine hope to accomplish?
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Why Did Ukraine Allow Itself to Become Nato's Pawn?
- Thread starter lukethethird
- Start date
HonestJoe
Well-Known Member
It didn't, certainly not intentionally. In general, the people of Ukraine want exactly the same kind of thing the rest of us do (it's almost as if they're just human beings who happen to live somewhere else). Also like the rest of us, they have been subject to individuals, internal and external, who acted based on their personal preferences and benefit rather than the good of the nation or it's people.
I don't know that they allowed themselves become NATO's pawn. However, for a variety of reasons, they apparently hold a great deal of resentment against Russia. This was ostensibly true for many of the non-Russian republics which were part of the Soviet Union. They seem to want independence and sovereignty, just like any nation would want. There might be some economic advantages as well.
The other side of this question is why would NATO want or need Ukraine in the first place? Sure, they're being invaded and the West has amped up the rhetoric to the Nth degree, but what purpose does any of this serve for U.S. interests? That's the question that no one seems to know the answer to, not even U.S. leaders.
ajay0
Well-Known Member
I would say poor leadership is the issue.
Ukraine's desire to enhance ties with Europe and US is understandable as Russia itself had good relationships with them back then.
But striving to become part of NATO would have strained relationships with paranoid Russia and they should have anticipated this.
The ideal situation was to cultivate ties with US, EU and Russia and benefit from the peace and trade by staying neutral in such a potentially unstable region.
Spain and Switzerland were two countries which escaped the devastation of World War 2 by staying neutral.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
A very good question! Gee, I wonder why Ukraine could possibly have wanted NATO membership?
First Chechen War - Wikipedia
Second Chechen War - Wikipedia
Russo-Georgian War - Wikipedia
War in Donbas - Wikipedia
Russo-Ukrainian War - Wikipedia
Surely, it is one of the great mysteries of our time. Perhaps we shall never know.
lukethethird
unknown member
Why would I believe a word of what you post? You and wiki's whitewashing of events in Ukraine and elsewhere don't fool anyone, well except you, of course.A very good question! Gee, I wonder why Ukraine could possibly have wanted NATO membership?
First Chechen War - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Second Chechen War - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Russo-Georgian War - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
War in Donbas - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Russo-Ukrainian War - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Surely, it is one of the great mysteries of our time. Perhaps we shall never know.
Regiomontanus
Eastern Orthodox
The Ukrainians were courted by America's hawkish politicians and military establishment, and they fell for it. The plan has always been to get up into their (Russia's) face as much as possible and hem them in. We promised Russia that NATO would not do this, but we did. Thanks, Madeline Albright, Clinton, and Zebigniew Brzezinski (among others).
No more American Empire, I say.
Why did Russia invade an independent nation and why is Russia planning on invading other nations and why is Russia threatending nuclear war and why is Russia convincing people with lying propaganda and why is Pootin a murdering tyrant .
BLAMING THE VICTIM IS 100% TOTALLY WRONG.
Regiomontanus
Eastern Orthodox
Do you really think Putin would invade another (most are now in NATO) country, considering how hard things are in eastern Ukraine? I hear Biden and others in his administration claiming that if he takes Ukraine he (Putin) would not stop and roll into the rest of Europe. You don't really believe that, do you? Unless China came to his aid, it would be suicidal and Putin knows that. I urge you to please stop the fear-mongering, brother.
With all due respect, you and the others on the hawkish left seem to have no sense of history; you do not seem to understand the role of the land that is Ukraine has on the psyche of many Russians.
I think there's a really dark side to this, involving sick criminal stuff. Ukraine is a human trafficking center, and the Bidens have criminal dealings there. The latter point is a good reason why Biden is acting like a lapdog to Zelensky. Zelensky comes over here and acts like a pimp, extorting money from his ho, lest he leak some unfortunate secrets about him. Ukraine is the most corrupt country in Europe and Zelensky himself is a very corrupt person.
Washington is angry at Zelensky for his corruption
The scandal sparked by the American investigative journalist Seymour Hersh presented an opposite image of Zelensky and shed light on his involvement in corruption.
Regiomontanus
Eastern Orthodox
I think there's a really dark side to this, involving sick criminal stuff. Ukraine is a human trafficking center, and the Bidens have criminal dealings there. The latter point is a good reason why Biden is acting like a lapdog to Zelensky. Zelensky comes over here and acts like a pimp, extorting money from his ho, lest he leak some unfortunate secrets about him. Ukraine is the most corrupt country in Europe and Zelensky himself is a very corrupt person.
Washington is angry at Zelensky for his corruption
The scandal sparked by the American investigative journalist Seymour Hersh presented an opposite image of Zelensky and shed light on his involvement in corruption.english.almayadeen.net
The rot of corruption in the Ukrainian government is wide and deep. And our government does not like talking about it (but knows it is real).
A loaded question.
Instead of becoming a pawn (except perhaps to
USA's Republicans), it's a country fighting for
survival against an aggressor who portends
further predation if successful in Ukraine.
It means non-NATO countries are more
interested in joining NATO. It means more
countries are strengthening their military.
And some countries are siding with Putin.
Political intrigue, yes....but pawn? A case
would have to be made to claim that...not
merely assume it as a question's premise.
Ukraine is not allowing itself to be NATO's pawn; it just refuses to be Russia's pawn. Of course a country would accept help from other countries when invaded by a larger and more powerful state that has imperialist aspirations.
PureX
Veteran Member
The purpose is for the military industrialists to get very rich.
Crony capitalism...
Prior to Ukraine's independence, Ukraine was a very poor country.
When Ukraine began to privatize industry much of the old Soviet power structure was still in place who took over much of the industry as well as kept ties to the political state. In total, in September 2021 the top 100 wealthiest business people in Ukraine control around $44.5 billion, according to Forbes, 27% of Ukrainian GDP.
I suspect a Russian take over would threaten the power, wealth, control of the Ukrainian oligarchs.
So basically folks with wealth and power in Ukraine want to keep it. Joining NATO would probably be the best way to secure the current economic structure of Ukraine.
An equally good question to asking why Ukraine wanted to be NATO's pawn is: Why couldn't France have invaded Ukraine? Why did it have to be Russia?
Yes, although I wouldn't expect them to admit to that publicly.
lukethethird
unknown member
France did invade Ukraine when it invaded Russia, it didn't go well at all for France.
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Well, they'd have to go through Germany or Italy to get there, along with a few other countries on the road to Ukraine.
Another question might be: Why did Russia invade Ukraine and not some other country? Why not North Korea or Iran? That way, they could still gain territory, and the U.S. might even be grateful.
Napoleon and France were invaded multiple times before he decided to start conquering. Napoleon was always under attack from England or some other country, but that was all in the span of his own lifetime. He wasn't reacting to something from centuries before. So my question actually was not a question. The reason France hasn't invaded Ukraine is that Nobody has invaded France recently.