Why Did Ukraine Allow Itself to Become Nato's Pawn?

[Estro Felino]

Because Ukrainians are a poor country and so they are desperate for a moneyed economic partner.

I blame the European Union...that should have helped this country sooner, before this horrific war broke out.


We Europeans want nothing in return. Just Ukraine to join the EU.

 

[Estro Felino]

Ukraine is not allowing itself to be NATO's pawn; it just refuses to be Russia's pawn. Of course a country would accept help from other countries when invaded by a larger and more powerful state that has imperialist aspirations.

It will be neither's pawn.
It will enter the European Union, its constitution will be remade and aligned with the other EU constitutions.
War will be outlawed. So it will be incompatible with both Russia and USA.

 

[Wirey]

Why did Ukraine allow itself to become Nato's pawn, and what did Ukraine hope to accomplish?

Just like Poland forced Nazi Germany to invade it. Great observation!

 

[Estro Felino]

Just like Poland forced Nazi Germany to invade it. Great observation!

But it's true.
They were dragged into a trap. The Germans of Danzig were persecuted by the Polish Government, and the Nazi Government invaded Poland.

 

[Mock Turtle]

The rot of corruption in the Ukrainian government is wide and deep. And our government does not like talking about it (but knows it is real).

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/02/biden-admin-ukraine-strategy-corruption-00119237

Corruption is an issue with many countries. How would you assess the corruption in Russia?

 

[Wirey]

But it's true.
They were dragged into a trap. The Germans of Danzig were persecuted by the Polish Government, and the Nazi Government invaded Poland.

Even a casual reading of history would indicate that the German minority in Poland were probably the most cossetted minority in Europe by the outbreak of war. That statement is riven with inaccuracy.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes, although I wouldn't expect them to admit to that publicly.

Yes....that's why countries are assisting Ukraine.
And why Ukraine is fighting Russia.
Because military industrialists are behind it all.
They control all governments in capitalist countries.
While they don't admit it, they did respond....
Booowahhaahahhahhahahahaahhhahahahaah!

 

[Stevicus]

Yes....that's why countries are assisting Ukraine.
And why Ukraine is fighting Russia.
Because military industrialists are behind it all.
They control all governments in capitalist countries.
While they don't admit it, they did respond....
Booowahhaahahhahhahahahaahhhahahahaah!

Well, somebody is doing something for some reason. That, you can be assured of.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, somebody is doing something for some reason. That, you can be assured of.

It's hard to argue against such insightful logic.

 

[Estro Felino]

Yes....that's why countries are assisting Ukraine.
And why Ukraine is fighting Russia.
Because military industrialists are behind it all.
They control all governments in capitalist countries.
While they don't admit it, they did respond....
Booowahhaahahhahhahahahaahhhahahahaah!

As for my country...the bynomial Government-MIC is aboveboard.

 

[Stevicus]

But it's true.
They were dragged into a trap. The Germans of Danzig were persecuted by the Polish Government, and the Nazi Government invaded Poland.

Even before the rise of Hitler, the Germans had misgivings about the newly-redrawn border with Poland, but they weren't in much of a position to do anything about it. Hitler wanted to change that situation and build up his military forces to try to get back territory which had been lost in WW1. Plus, they were worried about the USSR, which was also building up their military forces, as were the British and French. An arms race was in full swing.

I suppose a more moderate but anti-Soviet government in Germany could have probably made some kind of pact with Poland for joint defense against the USSR. They might have also included the Baltic Republics and other European states who were afraid of the Soviet Union. They wouldn't have to invade or take over any countries, as they could have formed a joint defense and trade pact - something not unlike the EU is today. The governments of countries bordering the Soviet Union would have likely willingly gone along with it. It would probably still entail a re-arming of Germany and building up their military, but with a more moderate government in power, they would have also achieved greater respectability and be treated as a first-rate power by the West, which also would have an interest in supporting a European anti-Soviet alliance.

Under those conditions, they probably could have made a deal over things like the Danzig corridor. Such a thing wouldn't be such a big deal between pals, but if one side turns out to be led by a gang of aggressive, violent, mendacious, treacherous, murdering, genocidal miscreants, then there are bound to be problems.

It actually put the West in quite a bind, since they had no automatic reason for going against the idea of a re-armed Germany as a buffer against the Soviet Union. But they just couldn't deal with a raving, mentally unstable lunatic. They saw Hitler as the more immediate threat than Stalin, who they also saw as a threat, except more as a long term threat.

 

[Revoltingest]

As for my country...the bynomial Government-MIC is aboveboard.

Only your elite bankers remain hidden.
And they're the ones controlling the MIC....right?

 

[Tomef]

Why did Ukraine allow itself to become Nato's pawn, and what did Ukraine hope to accomplish?

It‘s an endless source of amusement and bafflement, that the most gullible and credulous are always the ones who think they know ‘the truth’.

 

[Stevicus]

As for my country...the bynomial Government-MIC is aboveboard.

I think the truth lies somewhere in between. At least in America, there wasn't as big of an armament industry prior to WW2. But that war changed things to where a lot of industries were geared up towards war production, and the arms industry was booming.

The government demanded armaments, and the capitalists stepped up to meet the demand. But once they started making really big money, they wanted to keep the gravy train rolling. Even after the war was over.

To be fair, it doesn't take any great plotting or masterful conspiracy to persuade people to want weapons. There are plenty of individuals, factions, and governments who want weapons, so capitalists in the armaments industry will find no shortage of customers - if their only goal is to make money. It's the governments who want it, so there's always going to be somebody to do it - and they demand high payment (perhaps too high).

I don't really think it's all about the profit from making guns - although that may be just an extra bonus. It's more a matter of maintaining global hegemony by supplying weapons to various factions to escalate conflicts and other disorder to keep much of the world destabilized, impoverished, and economically dependent upon the West. But that's been a dangerous gambit which could come back and bite us.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The Ukrainians were courted by America's hawkish politicians and military establishment, and they fell for it. The plan has always been to get up into their (Russia's) face as much as possible and hem them in. We promised Russia that NATO would not do this, but we did. Thanks, Madeline Albright, Clinton, and Zebigniew Brzezinski (among others).

No more American Empire, I say.

So Russia aggressively invades Ukraine and it's America's fault?

 

[Estro Felino]

I think the truth lies somewhere in between. At least in America, there wasn't as big of an armament industry prior to WW2. But that war changed things to where a lot of industries were geared up towards war production, and the arms industry was booming.

The government demanded armaments, and the capitalists stepped up to meet the demand. But once they started making really big money, they wanted to keep the gravy train rolling. Even after the war was over.

The problem here is that in the past, Americans let the Government send them into useless and horrific wars, like the Vietnam War.
Here or in Germany it would have been unthinkable.
In France they would have used the guillotine on any politicians suggesting something that monstrous.

To be fair, it doesn't take any great plotting or masterful conspiracy to persuade people to want weapons. There are plenty of individuals, factions, and governments who want weapons, so capitalists in the armaments industry will find no shortage of customers - if their only goal is to make money. It's the governments who want it, so there's always going to be somebody to do it - and they demand high payment (perhaps too high).

The Second Amendment is a source of money. Billions of dollars.

I don't really think it's all about the profit from making guns - although that may be just an extra bonus.

Yes...it is. Unfortunately. It's that banal. The banality of evil.

It's more a matter of maintaining global hegemony by supplying weapons to various factions to escalate conflicts and other disorder to keep much of the world destabilized, impoverished, and economically dependent upon the West. But that's been a dangerous gambit which could come back and bite us.

If that's true, if it's all about destroying countries through war, I thank God for creating Heaven and Hell, and for assuring justice and condemnation.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Do you really think Putin would invade another (most are now in NATO) country, considering how hard things are in eastern Ukraine? I hear Biden and others in his administration claiming that if he takes Ukraine he (Putin) would not stop and roll into the rest of Europe. You don't really believe that, do you? Unless China came to his aid, it would be suicidal and Putin knows that. I urge you to please stop the fear-mongering, brother.

With all due respect, you and the others on the hawkish left seem to have no sense of history; you do not seem to understand the role of the land that is Ukraine has on the psyche of many Russians.

I do not think that anyone predicted that. What they pointed out is that Russia seems to want as many of its old SSR's back as possible. Estonia is not feeling very comfortable at all.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Napoleon and France were invaded multiple times before he decided to start conquering. Napoleon was always under attack from England or some other country, but that was all in the span of his own lifetime. He wasn't reacting to something from centuries before. So my question actually was not a question. The reason France hasn't invaded Ukraine is that Nobody has invaded France recently.

Do you think that @ChristineM would mind if we did that? After all if it brought peace to the area that would be a good thing. Though you never want to cross Christine

 

[Brickjectivity]

Do you think that @ChristineM would mind if we did that? After all if it brought peace to the area that would be a good thing. Though you never want to cross Christine

The way to do it is to tell France that we are joining their republic. Never awake a sleepwalker.

 

[Stevicus]

The problem here is that in the past, Americans let the Government send them into useless and horrific wars, like the Vietnam War.
Here or in Germany it would have been unthinkable.
In France they would have used the guillotine on any politicians suggesting something that monstrous.

Americans became convinced that communism was a grave danger to the U.S. and the American way of life. That's how they got hornswoggled into supporting wars as in Vietnam. There's also very strong peer pressures to the degree that anyone who doesn't support a given military action is a traitor.

This is how the tactic works, and from what I can tell, with slight variations, it's still effective today.

The Second Amendment is a source of money. Billions of dollars.


Yes...it is. Unfortunately. It's that banal. The banality of evil.

If that's true, if it's all about destroying countries through war, I thank God for creating Heaven and Hell, and for assuring justice and condemnation.

It's all about control and power. If it can be attained through lies and manipulation, that's the cheapest way. Bribery is a bit more expensive, but not as expensive as brute force and total warfare.