Why Didn't God Leave Huge Quantities of Secular Evidence For Jesus?

[Skywalker]

First you say there is no evidence, then you say there IS evidence.

Whether there is information in tradition about Bartholomew being persecuted, that doesn't have anything to do with there being historical evidence that Paul was persecuted for following Jesus. Paul’s Radical Conversion To Christianity | Reasons for Jesus

Thirdly, Paul lived his post-conversion life with a willingness to suffer and be persecuted for the message of Jesus. This is quite the dramatic change considering that his pre-conversion life had him persecuting and killing Christians. Not only did Paul suffer abuse, persecution, heartache, and isolation but he was also later martyred. On several occasions Paul was incarcerated, while other times he endured beatings (2 Cor. 11:24-27).

The Jews with whom Paul spoke tried to kill him (Acts 9:29), he was persecuted (Acts 13:50, 1 Corinthians 4:12, 2 Corinthians 4:9, 2 Timothy 3:11 & Phil 1:12-30), he was stoned and dragged out of the city (Acts 14:9), beaten with rods (Acts 16:22), endured trial (Acts 18:12), verbally abused by crowds (Acts 21:36 & 22:22), and incarcerated (2 Timothy 2:9).

Paul was clearly willing to suffer for his faith as is multiply & independently attested. From our early New Testament writings Paul’s suffering is attested by his authentic letters (1 Corinthians etc.), disputed letters (2 Timothy etc.) and by Acts.

That is at least three independent traditions attesting to his persecution and willingness to suffer for the risen Jesus. We should clarify one detail, however. To have two or three independent sources on Paul’s suffering depends on whether or not one holds that 2 Timothy is an authentic or disputed epistle of Paul’s. According to roughly 80% of scholars 2 Timothy was not authored by Paul (3).

We will accept this consensus, and therefore we have three independent sources from within our New Testament attesting to the persecution and suffering of Paul. According to theologian Chris Price:

“Most striking perhaps is that fact that Jesus appeared to Paul. Paul hated Christians and was hell-bent on destroying the church. What transformed him from a persecutor of Christians to a pastor, who was willing to endure extraordinary hardship to proclaim the Gospel? Paul claimed it was the resurrection. This also indicates that Jesus didn’t just appear to friends or followers who might have been predisposed to think high and exalted things about him. Christ appeared to skeptics (James) and unbelievers (Paul) and they were convinced based on the reality of the resurrection” (4).

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Whether there is information in tradition about Bartholomew being persecuted, that doesn't have anything to do with there being historical evidence that Paul was persecuted for following Jesus. Paul’s Radical Conversion To Christianity | Reasons for Jesus

I never mentioned Paul. I give up.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It doesn't take away from evidence that Paul was persecuted. Paul had nothing to gain by being a Christian. He was a follower of the law of Moses and thought that he was doing God's work by punishing Christians who he thought were blasphemers, because his devotion to the law blinded him to the truth. Paul’s Radical Conversion To Christianity | Reasons for Jesus

Paul may have died for Jesus. It does not really prove anything. Are you convinced to become a Buddhist by those that lit themselves on fire in protest?

Christianity like all religions had some martyrs. But the number appears to have been greatly exaggerated. When one looks for evidence of most of the claimed martyrs it is not to be found. Worse yet many of the stories do not even appear until 100 or more years after the supposed events.

 

[Skywalker]

Paul may have died for Jesus. It does not really prove anything. Are you convinced to become a Buddhist by those that lit themselves on fire in protest?

Christianity like all religions had some martyrs. But the number appears to have been greatly exaggerated. When one looks for evidence of most of the claimed martyrs it is not to be found. Worse yet many of the stories do not even appear until 100 or more years after the supposed events.

The Christian martyrs died because they didn't want to deny Jesus. What Makes a Christian Martyr Different from Other Faiths’ Martyr

Radical Muslims who blow themselves up in a suicide bombing to kill others are occasionally called martyrs by some, but this is a misnomer. The suicide bomber is not a martyr, but one who has chosen their own death, and is actively pursuing it. They are not dying because they refuse to convert to Christianity (or Buddhism, or Hinduism), but rather because of a choice to be an offensive weapon of terror.

For most polytheistic religions, martyrdom is usually not much of a concern, since another belief system can be incorporated into the pantheon of deities and beliefs already present. For example, this is why in India today we can see Jesus Christ being added by Hindu worshippers to the religious festivals and even the pantheon of deities. They will even venerate Jesus as a god without recognizing that He is actually the Creator God.

This is not to say that Buddhist or Hindu adherents never become martyrs. The Tibetan Buddhists have for many years been persecuted and martyred by the Chinese government for their refusal to convert to atheistic communism, and Muslims have killed Hindus for their refusal to convert to monotheism as well.

As in all cases of conflict, however, one must remember that religion may not be the only factor in persecution. In the case of the Hindu/Muslim conflict, much of the conflict lies in nationalistic animosity between Pakistanis and Indians. In the case of the Tibetan Buddhists vs. communist Chinese government, it is as much a conflict about self-government and independence versus centralized government as it is about religion. Therefore, deaths on either side may be the result of skirmishing as opposed to actual cases of direct religious persecution leading to martyrdom. Nevertheless, we do know that such persecution and martyrdom does take place. So what makes the Buddhist or Hindu martyr different from the Christian martyr? How does a Christian missionary to Indonesia who is martyred differ from the Tibetan monk who is martyred?

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

The Christian martyrs died because they didn't want to deny Jesus. What Makes a Christian Martyr Different from Other Faiths’ Martyr

It's always "My Christian martyrs are better than your martyrs."

 

[Skywalker]

It's always "My Christian martyrs are better than your martyrs."

A Christian is no better than an unbeliever. The difference between the Christian and the unbeliever is that their sins are covered.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I believe scholars tend to speculate a great deal. I like dealing in facts and for me that means the Bible.

The contradictions exist even in Bible.

 

[Aupmanyav]

People who try to say that Jesus was a yogi take Bible verses out of context. Was Jesus A Yogi Who Taught Yoga? | Reasons for Jesus

I never said or believe that Jesus was a yogi. In Abrahamic religions, people always crop up claiming that they are prophets / sons / messengers / manifestations / mahdis dispatched by God or Allah, because claiming that does not require any evidence. Jesus too was one such claimant, whom the Jewish orthodoxy got eradicated. And in times after Jesus, tens of people have later claimed that they are the return of Jesus: List of people claimed to be Jesus - Wikipedia

 

[Skywalker]

I never said or believe that Jesus was a yogi. In Abrahamic religions, people always crop up claiming that they are prophets / sons / messengers / manifestations / mahdis dispatched by God or Allah, because claiming that does not require any evidence. Jesus too was one such claimant, whom the Jewish orthodoxy got eradicated. And in times after Jesus, tens of people have later claimed that they are the return of Jesus: List of people claimed to be Jesus - Wikipedia

People who claim to be Jesus have nothing to do with Jesus. Jesus said in Matthew 24:24, "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Jesus was not a demigod, Jesus was God incarnated, who stepped down from his glory to pay the price of the sins of the world. Jesus was rejected by the Jewish leaders because they followed traditions of men that override the Word of God. The Pharisees thought that they were doing God's work but they were deceived by their traditions.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The problem is that there is no evidence of God, if Jesus was him.
However, you have your Bible and your views. So that is it.
Your views do not hold for me.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

A Christian is no better than an unbeliever. The difference between the Christian and the unbeliever is that their sins are covered.

It's still always "My Christian martyrs are better than your martyrs."

 

[night912]

The Christian martyrs died because they didn't want to deny Jesus. What Makes a Christian Martyr Different from Other Faiths’ Martyr

And it's the same as the martyrs of other beliefs.

Your link says this about non-christian martyrs.

- This is a difficult question to answer, but it basically boils down to two things. First, what was the person who was martyred engaged in doing? What was his lifestyle and business, which caused him to be a target? Second, what was the martyr killed for? In the above-mentioned cases of Hindu and Buddhist martyrs, some are engaged in violent or revolutionary activities against another government and so are not true martyrs because they are killed as “enemy combatants.” But many people in this situation are innocent bystanders living in areas viewed as hostile to the government in question. They may be killed inadvertently (or deliberately) because of nationalistic reasons. These deaths would actually be war casualties or genocide, not martyrdom in the religious sense. Others are killed mainly for religious reasons, but without a direct threat to convert or die. These killings are still mostly nationalistic in intent, not true martyrdom. The killing of non-Christians simply because of their religious beliefs and their subsequent refusal to convert to another religion is rare (although not unheard of).-

Although I don't entirely disagree with this, the fact is, the exact same thing is also true for Christian martyrs. And just to clarify the facts, the majority of Christians who were being persecuted in Indonesia was due to political reasons. Trying to paint the picture as if it was mainly because of religious beliefs, the author of the article is straight up being dishonest. It's nothing but propaganda of his view that Christian martyrs are better than the non-christian ones.

So he wants to convince us that it was strictly because of religious beliefs when Indonesia had political parties like this.....

- Indonesian Islamic Union Party
- Islamic Education Movement
- Muslim Party of Indonesia

And let's not forget these as well......

- Indonesian Christian Party
- Catholic Party

List of political parties in Indonesia - Wikipedia

 

[night912]

So basically, martyrdom has no bearing on whether or not a religion is actually true.

 

[Skywalker]

And it's the same as the martyrs of other beliefs.

Your link says this about non-christian martyrs.

- This is a difficult question to answer, but it basically boils down to two things. First, what was the person who was martyred engaged in doing? What was his lifestyle and business, which caused him to be a target? Second, what was the martyr killed for? In the above-mentioned cases of Hindu and Buddhist martyrs, some are engaged in violent or revolutionary activities against another government and so are not true martyrs because they are killed as “enemy combatants.” But many people in this situation are innocent bystanders living in areas viewed as hostile to the government in question. They may be killed inadvertently (or deliberately) because of nationalistic reasons. These deaths would actually be war casualties or genocide, not martyrdom in the religious sense. Others are killed mainly for religious reasons, but without a direct threat to convert or die. These killings are still mostly nationalistic in intent, not true martyrdom. The killing of non-Christians simply because of their religious beliefs and their subsequent refusal to convert to another religion is rare (although not unheard of).-

Although I don't entirely disagree with this, the fact is, the exact same thing is also true for Christian martyrs. And just to clarify the facts, the majority of Christians who were being persecuted in Indonesia was due to political reasons. Trying to paint the picture as if it was mainly because of religious beliefs, the author of the article is straight up being dishonest. It's nothing but propaganda of his view that Christian martyrs are better than the non-christian ones.

So he wants to convince us that it was strictly because of religious beliefs when Indonesia had political parties like this.....

- Indonesian Islamic Union Party
- Islamic Education Movement
- Muslim Party of Indonesia

And let's not forget these as well......

- Indonesian Christian Party
- Catholic Party

List of political parties in Indonesia - Wikipedia

The early Christians were not persecuted for political reasons. Non Christian martyrs were rarely persecuting for not converting to another belief system or not denying their beliefs. What Makes a Christian Martyr Different from Other Faiths’ Martyr

As in all cases of conflict, however, one must remember that religion may not be the only factor in persecution. In the case of the Hindu/Muslim conflict, much of the conflict lies in nationalistic animosity between Pakistanis and Indians. In the case of the Tibetan Buddhists vs. communist Chinese government, it is as much a conflict about self-government and independence versus centralized government as it is about religion. Therefore, deaths on either side may be the result of skirmishing as opposed to actual cases of direct religious persecution leading to martyrdom. Nevertheless, we do know that such persecution and martyrdom does take place. So what makes the Buddhist or Hindu martyr different from the Christian martyr? How does a Christian missionary to Indonesia who is martyred differ from the Tibetan monk who is martyred?

This is a difficult question to answer, but it basically boils down to two things. First, what was the person who was martyred engaged in doing? What was his lifestyle and business, which caused him to be a target? Second, what was the martyr killed for? In the above-mentioned cases of Hindu and Buddhist martyrs, some are engaged in violent or revolutionary activities against another government and so are not true martyrs because they are killed as “enemy combatants.” But many people in this situation are innocent bystanders living in areas viewed as hostile to the government in question. They may be killed inadvertently (or deliberately) because of nationalistic reasons. These deaths would actually be war casualties or genocide, not martyrdom in the religious sense. Others are killed mainly for religious reasons, but without a direct threat to convert or die. These killings are still mostly nationalistic in intent, not true martyrdom. The killing of non-Christians simply because of their religious beliefs and their subsequent refusal to convert to another religion is rare (although not unheard of).

 

[night912]

The early Christians were not persecuted for political reasons. Non Christian martyrs were rarely persecuting for not converting to another belief system or not denying their beliefs. What Makes a Christian Martyr Different from Other Faiths’ Martyr

PROPAGANDA TECHNIQUES
straw man - misrepresenting an opponent's position or argument to make it easier to attack, usually by exaggerating, distorting, or just completely fabricating it.
Propaganda Techniques - straw man

 

[joelr]

Everyone believes in God deep down inside but people suppress that truth because they want to be their own God. There is so much evidence that Christ existed that since one can't deny it, so people will say he was a good man or a prophet. People reject having a relationship with God because it's convenient for their way of life. How is belief in God any different from Flying Spaghetti Monsterism? | GotQuestions.org

There is so much evidence for Christ yet you have posted none of it. Every single thing you have posted is from fictional stories and personal beliefs taken from those fictional stories.

The apologist idea that people reject God because it
"isn't convenient" or they "want to be sinners" is crank apologetics. Actually they realize that there is no Jesus because he is a character in a myth.
No one believes in God until they are told there is a king in the sky watching them and who will grant them wishes and they can tell their problems too.
There are thousands of concepts of God, all radically different, all fiction. The idea that just one of those stories (even though it reads as silly as Greek or Persian myths) is real is not remotely possible.

 

[joelr]

Speculation about Jesus is because people don't want to accept that they are sinners in need of a Savior. People try to say that Jesus was a good man or a prophet because they don't want to believe in repenting, but there's so much evidence that Jesus is real that you can't outright deny it. People who try to say that Jesus was a yogi take Bible verses out of context. Was Jesus A Yogi Who Taught Yoga? | Reasons for Jesus

Sinners in need of a savior is part of the mythical narrative of the gospels. Almost no historian believe those are any more true than the Greek Epics. What they are trying to understand is is Jesus was a man teaching Judaism or entirely a myth. The gospels are definitely nothing but fictional stories about another savior god in the Middle East.
We are on page 105 now and you have given zero evidence that any of that is real.

People are martyred in every religion and cult. It doesn't make the stories they believe true.

 

[Skywalker]

Sinners in need of a savior is part of the mythical narrative of the gospels. Almost no historian believe those are any more true than the Greek Epics. What they are trying to understand is is Jesus was a man teaching Judaism or entirely a myth. The gospels are definitely nothing but fictional stories about another savior god in the Middle East.
We are on page 105 now and you have given zero evidence that any of that is real.

People are martyred in every religion and cult. It doesn't make the stories they believe true.

Mythology doesn't mention the belief that God came down to remove the barrier of sin from between people and God. Jesus came to remove the barrier of sin from between people and God because God is perfect and we are not perfect and no matter how many good works do we or how good we try, sin separates us from God.

While there are exceptions to the rule, Christian martyrs were generally persecuted for what they believed in. Many martyrs of other beliefs were persecuted for war or genocide or politics not for refusing to deny their beliefs. What Makes a Christian Martyr Different from Other Faiths’ Martyr

This is a difficult question to answer, but it basically boils down to two things. First, what was the person who was martyred engaged in doing? What was his lifestyle and business, which caused him to be a target? Second, what was the martyr killed for? In the above-mentioned cases of Hindu and Buddhist martyrs, some are engaged in violent or revolutionary activities against another government and so are not true martyrs because they are killed as “enemy combatants.” But many people in this situation are innocent bystanders living in areas viewed as hostile to the government in question. They may be killed inadvertently (or deliberately) because of nationalistic reasons. These deaths would actually be war casualties or genocide, not martyrdom in the religious sense. Others are killed mainly for religious reasons, but without a direct threat to convert or die. These killings are still mostly nationalistic in intent, not true martyrdom. The killing of non-Christians simply because of their religious beliefs and their subsequent refusal to convert to another religion is rare (although not unheard of).

The Romans, the Huns, the Goths, the Vikings, Muslims, Hindus, and other religious groups have perpetrated martyrdom of Christians since the time of the Apostles, mainly because of their Christian faith. The vast majority of these Christian martyrs were not revolutionaries or dissidents, but were ordinary citizens trying to live peaceably among their neighbors. According to principles laid down in Scripture, they paid their taxes, honored the king and governors, loved their neighbors, and gave no cause for offense (Romans 13:1–8; 1 Peter 2:13–17).

How then can we account for this vitriol directed at Christianity in excess of other inter-faith conflicts? The answer lies in the exclusivity of the Christian faith and the means of salvation. True Christianity does not teach a multiplicity of ways to “come to God.” It does not teach that humans are basically good and just need a divine nudge to get on the right track. It does not teach that man can earn merit with God. True Christianity teaches what Jesus Christ taught, that He alone is “the Way, the Truth and the Life: no man comes to the Father, but by Me” (John 14:6). Christianity is intricately tied to the authority of the Bible, which details mankind’s separation from God due to sin, the remedy that God provided through the death and Resurrection of Christ, how God wants to be worshipped, and how we are to conduct ourselves as ambassadors for Christ. We read in Ephesians 2:1 that we are all dead in sins until Christ makes us alive, and in verses 8–9 Paul tells us that we are saved (from God’s judgment) by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ, not by our own good works or merit.

 

[Skywalker]

There is so much evidence for Christ yet you have posted none of it. Every single thing you have posted is from fictional stories and personal beliefs taken from those fictional stories.

The apologist idea that people reject God because it
"isn't convenient" or they "want to be sinners" is crank apologetics. Actually they realize that there is no Jesus because he is a character in a myth.
No one believes in God until they are told there is a king in the sky watching them and who will grant them wishes and they can tell their problems too.
There are thousands of concepts of God, all radically different, all fiction. The idea that just one of those stories (even though it reads as silly as Greek or Persian myths) is real is not remotely possible.

There is historical evidence that supports the Resurrection of Christ. The apostles were real people who lived with Christ. All of the apostles believed that Christ was real when they saw the risen Christ. 12 Historical Facts About The Resurrection Of Jesus Most Scholars Agree Upon | Reasons for Jesus

What most historians agree upon
Using this method many important details from Jesus’ life can be reasonably established. This would include, but is not limited to, his radical personal claims, his crucifixion, burial in the tomb, the discovery of the empty tomb, post-mortem appearances, and his disciples’ coming to believe suddenly that God had raised him from the dead. In fact, exegete and philosopher of religion Gary Habermas has identified 12 such facts after combing through some three thousand articles penned by professional historians (2) (3):

1. Jesus died by crucifixion.
2. He was buried.
3. His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope.
4. The tomb was empty (the most contested).
5. The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important proof).
6. The disciples were transformed from doubters to bold proclaimers.
7. The resurrection was the central message.
8. They preached the message of Jesus’ resurrection in Jerusalem.
9. The Church was born and grew.
10. Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship.
11. James was converted to the faith when he saw the resurrected Jesus (James was a family skeptic).
12. Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic).

Habermas explains that the Minimal Facts method “considers only those data that are so strongly attested historically that they are granted by nearly every scholar who studies the subject, even the rather skeptical ones” (4). Fact four (the empty tomb) is the most contested fact, however it remains a majority view with some two-thirds of professional scholars (including atheist ones) accepting it (5). I’ve outlined eight such reasons why the evidence for the empty tomb is persuasive.

 

[Skywalker]

PROPAGANDA TECHNIQUES
straw man - misrepresenting an opponent's position or argument to make it easier to attack, usually by exaggerating, distorting, or just completely fabricating it.
Propaganda Techniques - straw man

You said that the answers in Genesis article said that Christian martyrs are better than non Christian ones. He never elevated anyone. Christians being persecuted in Indonesia for political reasons is an exception to the rule. Generally Christians are persecuted for believing in Christ.

What you said supports that the circumstances of Christians being persecuted are different from other beliefs being persecuted.

These deaths would actually be war casualties or genocide, not martyrdom in the religious sense. Others are killed mainly for religious reasons, but without a direct threat to convert or die. These killings are still mostly nationalistic in intent, not true martyrdom. The killing of non-Christians simply because of their religious beliefs and their subsequent refusal to convert to another religion is rare (although not unheard of).-

What Makes a Christian Martyr Different from Other Faiths’ Martyr

How then can we account for this vitriol directed at Christianity in excess of other inter-faith conflicts? The answer lies in the exclusivity of the Christian faith and the means of salvation. True Christianity does not teach a multiplicity of ways to “come to God.” It does not teach that humans are basically good and just need a divine nudge to get on the right track. It does not teach that man can earn merit with God. True Christianity teaches what Jesus Christ taught, that He alone is “the Way, the Truth and the Life: no man comes to the Father, but by Me” (John 14:6). Christianity is intricately tied to the authority of the Bible, which details mankind’s separation from God due to sin, the remedy that God provided through the death and Resurrection of Christ, how God wants to be worshipped, and how we are to conduct ourselves as ambassadors for Christ. We read in Ephesians 2:1 that we are all dead in sins until Christ makes us alive, and in verses 8–9 Paul tells us that we are saved (from God’s judgment) by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ, not by our own good works or merit.