Why Didn't God Leave Huge Quantities of Secular Evidence For Jesus?

[SeekingAllTruth]

Um. No. I don't know why you would think that. I don't believe in supernatural stuff. Get me mixed up with someone else?

That's gotta be it. Just old age showing.

 

[rational experiences]

The Ten Commandments do not contradict themselves. Who Wrote on the Second Pair of Tablets?

Basic common sense.

Not science.

Basic thinking advice.

Father not the scientist.

His living memory first allows truth to be known.

Developed brother after ice age destruction beast lizard life dinosaurs.

Lizard people says possesed psyche from aliens.

Fact machine artificial reactor alienated God.

Ice age wiped out alienation.

With vacuum activation.

Scientist father human.

Scientist brother human a liar.

His machine equals alien effect cause unnatural change to God.

God body quakes. Breaks it's seal. Reforms it seal. God seals God by sealing opening.

Science made God quake. God naturally seals owns quake

Brother copied sun conversion opened sink holes that did not reseal.

You got told your satanic relativity.

You removed Satan body pre God and God seal.

How did you expect God would return the stone?

Science answer. Arise a new mountain. A volcanic release.

Real about what you contemplate as information in reactions. Satanic.

 

[joelr]

I meant that the existence of those traits could be a coincidence. The people who wrote mythology stories intending to have savior traits in them doesn't mean that there isn't a real savior.

And maybe Krishna was a real demigod or Osirus was the real savior. Or like the evidence suggests they were all myths.
It isn't just comparisons to other saviors, everything is myth and taken from some older myth.

 

[joelr]

Jesus was talking about how belief in the gospel can divide people and how following Jesus isn't without cost. Jesus never forced anyone to believe. Religious freedom is not against Christianity. Jesus got angry at the money chargers at the temple, not at unbelievers. How was Jesus a bad role model? He taught love your enemies.

Hell is not fire. Hell is eternal separation from God. How can a loving God send people to hell?

Love your enemies is OT Jewish wisdom that Hillell the Elder was teaching before 0AD.
I have read the gospels, Jesus is completely against non-believers. If someone in your family is a non-believer you should not speak to them. The first 3 commandments are against religious freedom. Sorry, it's an old outdated myth.

 

[rational experiences]

A myth is a legend.

A legend.is a recorded statement owned expressed by the man science designer of science.

Same theme different life.

Atmospheric radiation amounts changed chemical brain.

Science owned man cause. Man gets affected self deitises man self.

Always responded in this behaviour due to nuclear sciences.

 

[joelr]

Heaven doesn't have the same meaning in Zoroastrianism that it does in Christianity. Jesus Vs Zoroaster – Debunking The Alleged Parallels | Reasons for Jesus

I'm not reading apologetics articles written by someone who goes to Google to get information. Why you think this trumps actual scholars who spent their life studying the Persian religion, including living with them for 1 year and then writing a peer-reviewd book?

What Mary Boyce says about Zoroastrianism is as close to the truth as it gets.

But it does not matter if they had different concepts of heaven. You have been provided with enough education on what religious syncretism actually means and I believe you know this does not matter. Each religion makes changes. How many times can people say the same thing to you over and over? Christianity is a Judaized version of the Mystery religions?
Your sources - JP Holding and the other one are not historians but are apologists who will say anything to make followers happy.

Not only Boyce but I gave a link to OT Professor Fransesca S. saying the same thing and your response continues to be "but J.P. Holding says it aint so..." Stick to apologetics and not caring about what is true. That is your thing.

 

[joelr]

Job 2:3 says, "The Lord said to the Adversary, “Have you thought about my servant Job, for there is no one like him on earth, a man who is honest, who is of absolute integrity, who reveres God and avoids evil? He still holds on to his integrity, even though you incited me to ruin him for no reason.” Satan didn't work for Yahweh, Yahweh used Satan to test Job.

Satan incited David to take a census of Israel, which resulted in God punishing David with a plague that killed 70,000 people. The name Satan means accuser not prosecutor. The belief of Satan being an agent of God comes from Kabbalah and Conservative Judaism, not the Bible. Satan - Wikipedia

As I already posted examples of Satan being an agent of God FROM THE BIBLE? In scripture God sends Satan to do dirty work. This is exactly what that means?
Then I posted that later ideas of Satan come from the Persian belief system? You basically just said "no" but provided the same evidence I did?

This means he was Gods agent:

"Yahweh sends the "Angel of Yahweh" to inflict a plague against Israel for three days, killing 70,000 people as punishment for David having taken a census without his approval.[17] 1 Chronicles 21:1 repeats this story,[17] but replaces the "Angel of Yahweh" with an entity referred to as "a satan"."

Yes, he did a job for Yahweh??? The point is Satan was different until the Persian period when the Persian version was adopted. It just shhows Jewish mythology was influenced by the Persian myths.


THEN:

"
During the Second Temple Period, when Jews were living in the Achaemenid Empire, Judaism was heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism, the religion of the Achaemenids.[27][8][28] Jewish conceptions of Satan were impacted by Angra Mainyu,[8][29] the Zoroastrian god of evil, darkness, and ignorance.[8] In the Septuagint, the Hebrew ha-Satan in Job and Zechariah is translated by the Greek word diabolos (slanderer), the same word in the Greek New Testament from which the English word "devil" is derived.[30] Where satan is used to refer to human enemies in the Hebrew Bible, such as Hadad the Edomite and Rezon the Syrian, the word is left untranslated but transliterated in the Greek as satan, a neologism in Greek.[30]

The idea of Satan as an opponent of God and a purely evil figure seems to have taken root in Jewish pseudepigrapha during the Second Temple Period,[31] particularly in the apocalypses.["

 

[joelr]

Attis was born of a nymph. Refuting Attis Myth Parallelism To Christianity

I didn't see Attis in this article by an actual historian on virgin births, but there are plenty of other examples.

Virgin Birth: It's Pagan, Guys. Get Over It. • Richard Carrier
"there were also full-on virgin births (at the very least, Perseus and Ra) and conceptions without sexual union regardless of the mother’s virginity otherwise (Hephaestus, directly created in Hera’s womb; Mithras, spontaneously born from a rock; and Dionysus, in the myth by which his mother Semele conceives him a second time by drinking a potion; and many more I’ll enumerate shortly), which are actually far more pertinent precedents of the the ideas stolen by the Jews to invent such a comparable miraculous origin for Jesus (in defiance of even their own logic that he was supposed to be conceived by the seed of David, or in any case the seed of his necessarily human descendants—hence Matthew’s genealogy for Joseph, for example)....


But borrow they did. Before Christianity arose, pagan theology was already awash with women conceiving asexually, and also promulgated the idea of women giving birth as still virgins. Judaism had no comparable idea. Even the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14 would have been read by Jews through a Jewish interpretational filter—a filter that lacked any other notion except that a virgin would conceive on her wedding night in the usual way—until they had a pagan filter to see it through. Only then, though Isaiah 7 never mentions a virgin birth (only that a maiden will become pregnant; not that she would then remain a maiden), would any Jew imagine it could have said what pagans might have imagined: that this mother will remain a virgin, thus portending a miracle. That step in reasoning is pagan. And only comes from a pagan milieu. The Christians assimilated their godman to pagan godmen, by Judaizing the pagan elements required. Thus, they preferred the pagan godmen who were fathered sexlessly by God’s pneuma and dynamis (a la Plutarch), upon women who chastely never had sex with anyone else either, so that even the vagina itself that the godman would pass through would be pure of sexual corruption. Ra came by such a way. Perseus as well. And if we allow revirginizing magic, Hephaestus, too. And if they, why not Jesus?"..

 

[Subduction Zone]

The Ten Commandments do not contradict themselves. Who Wrote on the Second Pair of Tablets?

Once again you got the argument wrong. I asked you what the Tenth Commandment was. You have the chapter, go look it up yourself. Here is a hint, it is the last one.

 

[rational experiences]

A theist theories when humans never existed.

Applied all reactions to the mass a planet.

Says as that human scientist. It is safe you are not God. The planet is.

Really scientist?

Do I need to apologise for still existing as a human and a female when you quote maths science is female and use maths reactions to destroy form.

Am I as a female a regret of yours?

What do you really believe about my equal human female life as you think?

 

[sojourner]

How is it supposed to be interpreted then?

Paul is speaking by example, not admission. Paul isn’t “lying to people about Jesus’ existence.” He’s talking in general terms about the failings of the human condition. As poor an example as we are, God’s glory shows through us anyway.

 

[Skywalker]

And maybe Krishna was a real demigod or Osirus was the real savior. Or like the evidence suggests they were all myths.
It isn't just comparisons to other saviors, everything is myth and taken from some older myth.

Osiris wasn't a Savior because he didn't die for the sins of people and his role was different from Jesus in that he didn't come to teach us how to live. Is Jesus Simply a Retelling of the Osiris Mythology? | Cold Case Christianity

Claim: Osiris taught much of the same material as Jesus; many teachings are identically the same, word for word
Truth: There is absolutely no evidence of any of this, and the “wisdom” of Osiris is still available for review.

 

[Skywalker]

Love your enemies is OT Jewish wisdom that Hillell the Elder was teaching before 0AD.
I have read the gospels, Jesus is completely against non-believers. If someone in your family is a non-believer you should not speak to them. The first 3 commandments are against religious freedom. Sorry, it's an old outdated myth.

How is Jesus against non believers? FAQ: Did Jesus Come to Bring Peace or a Sword — Peace Catalyst International

The second mention of peace in Matthew 10 relates to persecution and suffering brought about because of fruitful evangelism: "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law – a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.' Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me” (Matthew 10:34-38 NIV).

Jesus’ followers are peacemaker-evangelists who speak the blessing of peace on families where they stay. Nevertheless, response to the message of the Kingdom will be mixed: some will accept the message and others will reject it. Because of this, families will be divided, conflict will ensue. Thus, in the sword passage Jesus reminds his followers of his supreme worth and the need to follow him regardless of the negative fallout. In a parallel passage, Luke describes the metaphor of the sword in terms of division, not violence: “Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division” (Luke 12:51). Thus, Jesus did not use the metaphor of the sword to depict any form of violence or belligerence on the part of his followers but rather the divisive fallout that sometimes accompanies evangelistic outreach.

 

[Skywalker]

Post edited-typo.

 

[Skywalker]

The point is that when the writers of the gospels were creating the story of Jesus the writers, being Greek scholars, drew heavily on the mythology of their own demi-gods and heroes like the following:

Oedipus (21 or 22 points), Theseus (20 points), Romulus (18 points), Heracles (17 points), Perseus (18 points), Jason (15 points), Bellerophon (16 points), Pelops (13 points), Dionysos (19 points), Apollo (11 points), Zeus (15 points)

It's a question which came first, Jesus or the Greek gods. Of course, the Greek gods. Naturally the writers, not having any written evidence of Jesus' life, would turn to their own mythology to create a "life" for Jesus.

Jesus was not copied from Dionysius. The parallels that people say exist between them don't exist. How could Jesus have been copied from Greek mythology if he wasn't a demigod? Was Jesus Copied Off the Greek God Dionysos? - Tales of Times Forgotten

A review of the alleged Jesus-Dionysos connection

First, let’s look at some of the claims that are often made about the supposed parallels between Jesus and Dionysos. Here is a meme from Mythicist Milwaukee, a convention held in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, for people who think that there was no historical Jesus, that presents most of the major alleged parallels between Jesus and Dionysos:

These claims should be plenty to work with.

Born of a virgin?

In reality, there are many different versions of the story of Dionysos’s birth. There is only one of them—a very obscure version recounted in a late, often unreliable Roman source—that could possibly be construed as a story of a “virgin birth,” but even that version never mentions anything about his mother being a virgin. Since there are several different versions of the story of Dionysos’s birth, I will start out with the most common version, which does not involve anything that could realistically be construed as a virgin birth of any kind.

The most common version of the story itself exists in a few variations, so the version I am about to relate is admittedly something of a composite version cobbled together from a few different ancient accounts. Anyway, here it goes: Zeus, the king of the gods, came to the mortal woman Semele, the daughter of King Kadmos of Thebes, in the form of a serpent and showered her with his love and affection. He courted her for a very long time, slowly winning her over.

 

[Skywalker]

But it has nothing to do with whether Jesus actually lived or not. A figure(s) upon which the legend of Jesus as found in the gospels was based maybe, even probably did live and likely he was a seditionist against Rome who was captured and crucified and that was the end of his physical life. But myths around a Messiah were rife in Israel at this time. All the Jews were expecting a Messiah around daniel's predicted time to emerge and free the Jews from Roman rule. It's a tailor-made situation for people who fancy themselves Messiahs to start preaching they are God's Chosen.

But then history goes blank far as Jesus goes. Nobody writes about him. We don't know when this Paul character wrote because we haven't any manuscripts earlier than the 2nd Century of any of his epistles. It's speculation to assume he was writing in 55 CE because nobody mentions him until Luke write Acts in the 2nd Century sometime. It's like someone said, "Trying to nail down proof for Jesus or the apostles is like trying to nail Jell-0 to a wall." It just doesn't hold.

Jesus not freeing the Jews from Roman rule doesn't mean that he wasn't the Messiah it meant that he didn't fit their expectations about who the Messiah would be. It has nothing to do with whether he made up fulfilling the prophecies.

 

[Skywalker]

I'm not reading apologetics articles written by someone who goes to Google to get information. Why you think this trumps actual scholars who spent their life studying the Persian religion, including living with them for 1 year and then writing a peer-reviewd book?

What Mary Boyce says about Zoroastrianism is as close to the truth as it gets.

But it does not matter if they had different concepts of heaven. You have been provided with enough education on what religious syncretism actually means and I believe you know this does not matter. Each religion makes changes. How many times can people say the same thing to you over and over? Christianity is a Judaized version of the Mystery religions?
Your sources - JP Holding and the other one are not historians but are apologists who will say anything to make followers happy.

Not only Boyce but I gave a link to OT Professor Fransesca S. saying the same thing and your response continues to be "but J.P. Holding says it aint so..." Stick to apologetics and not caring about what is true. That is your thing.

There is evidence that Zoroastrianism copied the Bible. Zoroastrian texts that say that Zoraster began his ministry at thirty came from after Christianity. Also, the age of thirty has meaning in Persian culture. There are other explanations for Zoraster possibly being thirty besides the Bible.

12. He began his ministry at age 30. This one is absolutely right [Jack.ZP, 16], but rendered meaningless in this context by two things. First, it comes from the Pahlavi literature, which is post-Christian by several centuries, and second, thirty is the age at which Iranian men come to Wisdom. [WL, 54] The ancients gave as much regard to the “big three-oh” as we did — there is no copycatting here.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Jesus not freeing the Jews from Roman rule doesn't mean that he wasn't the Messiah it meant that he didn't fit their expectations about who the Messiah would be. It has nothing to do with whether he made up fulfilling the prophecies.

You're back to the same ol' problem: personal interpretation--what YOU think the scriptures say about Jesus. Everybody has their own interpretation of what was expected of Jesus because the scriptures are so vague in their language. I could locate a dozen Hebrew Bible scholars who say Jesus isn't the Messiah. The messiah was supposed to bring universal peace. Jesus did not fulfill that prophecy.

 

[Skywalker]

As I already posted examples of Satan being an agent of God FROM THE BIBLE? In scripture God sends Satan to do dirty work. This is exactly what that means?
Then I posted that later ideas of Satan come from the Persian belief system? You basically just said "no" but provided the same evidence I did?

This means he was Gods agent:

"Yahweh sends the "Angel of Yahweh" to inflict a plague against Israel for three days, killing 70,000 people as punishment for David having taken a census without his approval.[17] 1 Chronicles 21:1 repeats this story,[17] but replaces the "Angel of Yahweh" with an entity referred to as "a satan"."

Yes, he did a job for Yahweh??? The point is Satan was different until the Persian period when the Persian version was adopted. It just shhows Jewish mythology was influenced by the Persian myths.


THEN:

"
During the Second Temple Period, when Jews were living in the Achaemenid Empire, Judaism was heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism, the religion of the Achaemenids.[27][8][28] Jewish conceptions of Satan were impacted by Angra Mainyu,[8][29] the Zoroastrian god of evil, darkness, and ignorance.[8] In the Septuagint, the Hebrew ha-Satan in Job and Zechariah is translated by the Greek word diabolos (slanderer), the same word in the Greek New Testament from which the English word "devil" is derived.[30] Where satan is used to refer to human enemies in the Hebrew Bible, such as Hadad the Edomite and Rezon the Syrian, the word is left untranslated but transliterated in the Greek as satan, a neologism in Greek.[30]

The idea of Satan as an opponent of God and a purely evil figure seems to have taken root in Jewish pseudepigrapha during the Second Temple Period,[31] particularly in the apocalypses.["

Satan is a fallen angel and Jewish interpretations of the Old Testament say that Satan is an angel of God and part of the divine council.

The Bible doesn't say that Satan accuses for Yahweh. God used the accuser to test Job but he didn't order Satan's actions.

There is no Persian influence on the biblical viewpoint of Satan.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Jesus was not copied from Dionysius. The parallels that people say exist between them don't exist. How could Jesus have been copied from Greek mythology if he wasn't a demigod? Was Jesus Copied Off the Greek God Dionysos? - Tales of Times Forgotten

Jesus is not a carbon copy of Dionysus. Jesus is an amalgamation of several dying/rising gods.

"....most secular historians also agree that the gospels contain large quantities of ahistorical legendary details mixed in with historical information about Jesus's life."

Jesus in comparative mythology - Wikipedia