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Why Didn't God Leave Huge Quantities of Secular Evidence For Jesus?

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
Everything I have was given to me by God, I never had any beliefs or faith in any deity. I just lived as I pleased with no concern for any god.
God revealed Himself to me, while I wasn't looking for Him. I can't prove anything to anyone, as God is an invisible Spirit, so it's not as though i can show Him to others.

I don't need to test my beliefs, you only test something if you're not sure about it.
Why doesn't God give this thing that you have to everyone? I mean if he wants everyone to believe Jesus died for their sins why is he so selective about who he reveals himself to? See, this tells me that belief in Jesus is a purely subjective thing. Some have the capacity to accept something for which there isn't an iota of proof for, while others are simply not that gullible. It's no accident that televangelists are worth hundreds of millions of dollars with all the patsies sending in their gas bill money to them on blind faith that god will reward them with millions too simply because the televangelists say he will. I couldn't fall for a scam like that anymore, but I used to till I wised up.
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
the best evidence I witnessed was when I was raised back to life after dying.
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Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Why doesn't God give this thing that you have to everyone? I mean if he wants everyone to believe Jesus died for their sins why is he so selective about who he reveals himself to? See, this tells me that belief in Jesus is a purely subjective thing. Some have the capacity to accept something for which there isn't an iota of proof for, while others are simply not that gullible. It's no accident that televangelists are worth hundreds of millions of dollars with all the patsies sending in their gas bill money to them on blind faith that god will reward them with millions too simply because the televangelists say he will. I couldn't fall for a scam like that anymore, but I used to till I wised up.

The Bible says that those who seek God will find Him. God doesn't choose us-we choose him.
 

Pilgrim Soldier

Active Member
"For God so loved the [whole]world that he gave his only begotten etc." Doesn't that include everyone on earth? See, this is one of those thousands of doctrinal differences that pops up in any man-made religion--does God love the whole world or does He only love His elect and hates those he has predestined for hell. Doesn't make a bit of sense, but then when we're talking about the Christian faith what does??
Not sure why you felt the need to invent your own Bible verse.We already have the perfect inerrant Word of God, we have been warned that anyone who adds or takes away a single word will be cast into hell to burn forever.

I'm not sure why you felt the need to add the word (whole) to John 3:16 adding to Gods Word always results in heretical teaching. This is why we have so many (christian) sects and cults.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Why doesn't God give this thing that you have to everyone? I mean if he wants everyone to believe Jesus died for their sins why is he so selective about who he reveals himself to? See, this tells me that belief in Jesus is a purely subjective thing. Some have the capacity to accept something for which there isn't an iota of proof for, while others are simply not that gullible. It's no accident that televangelists are worth hundreds of millions of dollars with all the patsies sending in their gas bill money to them on blind faith that god will reward them with millions too simply because the televangelists say he will. I couldn't fall for a scam like that anymore, but I used to till I wised up.

God reveals himself to everyone through creation and the conscience. It's up to us if we want to seek him. Never heard gospel - creation.com

Romans 1 tells us clearly that we should be able to tell from nature that God is the Creator and some basic things about His power and divine nature. The revelation that is present in nature is called “general revelation”. That should cause us to worship him and be thankful, but instead people decide to rebel against the Creator and engage in various forms of idolatry. This sets off a cascade of sinful consequences which are both the results of logically prior sins, and sins which deserve judgment in and of themselves.
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
Not sure why you felt the need to invent your own Bible verse.We already have the perfect inerrant Word of God, we have been warned that anyone who adds or takes away a single word will be cast into hell to burn forever.

I'm not sure why you felt the need to add the word (whole) to John 3:16 adding to Gods Word always results in heretical teaching. This is why we have so many (christian) sects and cults.
You really believe people will literally burn in a lake of fire forever? Millions of Christians say that's just figurative; millions more like you say it's literal. Millions of other Christians believe God will simply annihilate them. Millions more beyond that say God will reconcile everyone to Him and all will be saved. Why can't Christians get their dogma together?
 

Pilgrim Soldier

Active Member
Why doesn't God give this thing that you have to everyone? I mean if he wants everyone to believe Jesus died for their sins why is he so selective about who he reveals himself to? See, this tells me that belief in Jesus is a purely subjective thing. Some have the capacity to accept something for which there isn't an iota of proof for, while others are simply not that gullible. It's no accident that televangelists are worth hundreds of millions of dollars with all the patsies sending in their gas bill money to them on blind faith that god will reward them with millions too simply because the televangelists say he will. I couldn't fall for a scam like that anymore, but I used to till I wised up.
That's a very good question, God's Saints and Prophets asked Him the same question over thousands of years and His answer has remained the same to all of them including us today.
We have the account of Gods elect, who suffered all kinds of persecution and affliction throughout their lives for their faith. Then they see a murderer and adulterer who repented on his death bed, receive the same reward as they did. They all complain to God, that it's not fair that that sinner should receive the same reward as they did but God tells them that it's none of their business what He does with His money.

I have paraphrased Matthew 20:12 but the story is about people who asked God why He chooses some who don't deserve to be saved.

There are around 120 Bible verses which deal with your question, the answer is always the same. God is sovereign over every atom in His created universe and nobody has the right to ask Him any questions. One bible verse says, "has the thing created have the right to ask God, why have you created me this way", the answer is always the same NO.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
That's a very good question, God's Saints and Prophets asked Him the same question over thousands of years and His answer has remained the same to all of them including us today.
We have the account of Gods elect, who suffered all kinds of persecution and affliction throughout their lives for their faith. Then they see a murderer and adulterer who repented on his death bed, receive the same reward as they did. They all complain to God, that it's not fair that that sinner should receive the same reward as they did but God tells them that it's none of their business what He does with His money.

I have paraphrased Matthew 20:12 but the story is about people who asked God why He chooses some who don't deserve to be saved.

There are around 120 Bible verses which deal with your question, the answer is always the same. God is sovereign over every atom in His created universe and nobody has the right to ask Him any questions. One bible verse says, "has the thing created have the right to ask God, why have you created me this way", the answer is always the same NO.
If you are referring to the supposed suffering of martyrs that appears to be an exaggerated early church story. Of the apostles only a couple at the most were known to have died for their beliefs. The rest appear to be only stories.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
That is i ridiculous argument. Jesus said non-believers would suffer in eternal fire. It doesn't get harsher than this.
The first 3 commandments from this God are about how you can only worship him and you cannot even have an image of another God. Freedom of religion is out the door.
Stop posting apologetics and make a point yourself. Use the article to back up an idea but say what you mean. If you are just going to go "no you are wrong" with a link to a layman historian preacher or some other unqualified author it's pointless.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
There is evidence that Zoroastrianism copied the Bible. Zoroastrian texts that say that Zoraster began his ministry at thirty came from after Christianity. Also, the age of thirty has meaning in Persian culture. There are other explanations for Zoraster possibly being thirty besides the Bible.

WHAT IS YOUR SOURCE???
In Mary Boyce's book she has words spoken by Zoraster that are from the 6th century BC. Among those words are predictions of a virgin born world savior.

Christianity did not come until over 600 years after these Persian writings. I have already gave you the scholar who is the most educated in this religion and it's known in scholarship that the Persians influenced Christianity in ways already mentioned. I do not care if some apologetics writing pastor writes an article from Google?

This is on pg 29 of Boyce's book:

"Historical features of Zoroastrianism, such as messianism, judgment after death, heaven and hell, and free will may have influenced other religious and philosophical systems, including Second Temple Judaism, Gnosticism, Greek philosophy,[10] Christianity, Islam,[11] the Baháʼí Faith, and Buddhism.[1"

You can check her qualifications here:
Mary Boyce - Wikipedia
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Satan is a fallen angel and Jewish interpretations of the Old Testament say that Satan is an angel of God and part of the divine council.

The Bible doesn't say that Satan accuses for Yahweh. God used the accuser to test Job but he didn't order Satan's actions.

There is no Persian influence on the biblical viewpoint of Satan.

First God did send Satan to do his bidding:

"Yahweh sends the "Angel of Yahweh" to inflict a plague against Israel for three days, killing 70,000 people as punishment for David having taken a census without his approval.[17] 1 Chronicles 21:1 repeats this story,[17] but replaces the "Angel of Yahweh" with an entity referred to as "a satan""

Second this was the early concept of Satan. Later versions after the Persion invasion were much more like the Zorastrian version with Satan being an enemy and at war with God.

Henry Ansgar Kelly is Distinguished Research Professor of Biblical studies explains that the Persian occupation (second temple Judaism) had a big impact on the Jewish concept of Satan.


During the Second Temple Period, when Jews were living in the Achaemenid Empire, Judaism was heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism, the religion of the Achaemenids.[27][8][28] Jewish conceptions of Satan were impacted by Angra Mainyu,[8][29] the Zoroastrian god of evil, darkness, and ignorance.[8] In the Septuagint, the Hebrew ha-Satan in Job and Zechariah is translated by the Greek word diabolos (slanderer), the same word in the Greek New Testament from which the English word "devil" is derived.[30] Where satan is used to refer to human enemies in the Hebrew Bible, such as Hadad the Edomite and Rezon the Syrian, the word is left untranslated but transliterated in the Greek as satan, a neologism in Greek.[30]

The idea of Satan as an opponent of God and a purely evil figure seems to have taken root in Jewish pseudepigrapha during the Second Temple Period,
Satan - Wikipedia



Can you not read - "Judaism was heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism,"?????????

To just say "no" is just denial. You can run from facts and truth and believe whatever you like. But as far as this discussion goes I have demonstrated this is true. You can go to church and pretend the false history presented is real and live in that bubble, Like the movie The 10 Commandments is actually how it happened. But in academia the actual facts are there to be learned if anyone cares.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
The exagarated Attis parallel makes it questionable if other virgin birth parallels are even true.
What Attis parallel? There are amateur articles that are apologist and articles that are pro-mythicist. Both can be complete crank. A crank article on Attis/Jesus comparisons does not change real facts or work done by actual scholars.

In Carriers blog article where he goes over several other dying/rising demigods he does not even mention Attis.
 

Pilgrim Soldier

Active Member
You really believe people will literally burn in a lake of fire forever? Millions of Christians say that's just figurative; millions more like you say it's literal. Millions of other Christians believe God will simply annihilate them. Millions more beyond that say God will reconcile everyone to Him and all will be saved. Why can't Christians get their dogma together?
Millions of Christians will come before Jesus to tell Him about all the good things they did during their lives, but He will say "depart from Me into the everlasting fire, for I never knew you".

Jesus kept warning people about hell, He spoke about hell as being a lake of fire where people will be tormented forever, with no hope of annihilation or escape. Jesus said, the vast majority will be cast into hell, but we see the vast majority calling Jesus a liar. I personally believe what Jesus said, and I reject the notion that something must be true if the general public invent it and give it oxygen.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Demigods are not born of virgins they are descendants of gods and women.
There are all types of variations in myths about Gods and humans having offspring. Sometimes it was just like Mary/Jesus sometimes different. Like the Greek goddess who had sex a lot with Zeus but after a magic bath she became a virgin. They still produce demigods however it's done.
The style of birth used with Mary has happened in myths before Christianity.


"In other words, the idea of a virgin born, sexlessly conceived god already widely existed in paganism before Christianity arose. And Hera isn’t the only example. If you really insist on the idea being gods born of women who never had sex at all, the pagans had those, too. Perseus was most famously conceived by golden rain falling from the ceiling into the womb of the virgin Danaë, who remained a true virgin, never penetrated by any sexual organ anywhere, all the way to the god’s birth. One might still quibble and say gold coins counts as sex (as later painters imagined the myth to imply), but that’s a stretch, and in any case, it’s neither how the notion was conceived in antiquity (ancient iconography showed the gold falling in droplets, like a literal rain, more evocative of a ubiquitous urban myth of parthenogenesis: semen entering a womb without any organ penetrating the hymen) nor how it was universally understood by pagans: as even Justin Martyr had to admit, this counted as a virgin birth, and everyone said so."

"

The virgin birth myth for Jesus was, certainly, almost entirely modeled on Jewish precedents, both in and out of the Bible—from the miraculous impregnation of Sarah in the OT, to the miraculous conception of Moses in Philo’s Life of Moses and the Biblical Antiquities. But it was a syncretic creation, combining those Jewish elements, with pagan, producing a hybrid, just like every other instance of cultural diffusion (e.g. the way the Romans altered the Athena story when adapting it to Minerva): something different from anything before, yet fully explained by all its precedents. I should also add, for those who will inevitably ask, yes, it’s true, the original Hebrew scriptures did not predict a virgin birth, although their Greek translations could still have inspired the idea, evidencing a third source, the paganized Judaism of Hellenism: see my discussion in The Problem of the Virgin Birth Prophecy.

More relevant though I think was the fact that the idea of God spontaneously creating people was already a Jewish notion for centuries before Christianity came along: it’s precisely how Adam and Eve came to be. If God could fashion them without sex, he could fashion Jesus without sex. Just as he would fashion our future new bodies without sex (2 Corinthians 5). And like Romulus as a pre-existent deity given a body, Jesus was a pre-existent deity given a body (see OHJ, Element 10, pp. 92-96), making sexual conception less pertinent a means anyway, even if the authors were not already disgusted by the idea of sex and thus already inclined to leave it out of any pagan model they borrowed from.

But borrow they did. Before Christianity arose, pagan theology was already awash with women conceiving asexually, and also promulgated the idea of women giving birth as still virgins. Judaism had no comparable idea. Even the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14 would have been read by Jews through a Jewish interpretational filter—a filter that lacked any other notion except that a virgin would conceive on her wedding night in the usual way—until they had a pagan filter to see it through. Only then, though Isaiah 7 never mentions a virgin birth (only that a maiden will become pregnant; not that she would then remain a maiden), would any Jew imagine it could have said what pagans might have imagined: that this mother will remain a virgin, thus portending a miracle. That step in reasoning is pagan. And only comes from a pagan milieu. The Christians assimilated their godman to pagan godmen, by Judaizing the pagan elements required. Thus, they preferred the pagan godmen who were fathered sexlessly by God’s pneuma and dynamis (a la Plutarch), upon women who chastely never had sex with anyone else either, so that even the vagina itself that the godman would pass through would be pure of sexual corruption. Ra came by such a way. Perseus as well. And if we allow revirginizing magic, Hephaestus, too. And if they, why not Jesus?

Christians just need to get over this, and accept that their religion is just another evolution of paganism, one more splinter sect of competitive superstitions and mythologies. Its ideas have been cobbled together from the dismembered parts of other religions that preceded it. And when you really think about it, this Frankenstein’s monster is, well, kind of silly. Sexless reproduction and virginal birth canals? How desperate must you be to deny the natural facts of human bodies. And how ruined and sullied your minds must be, to think there is anything at all bad or dirty about one random awkwardly shaped piece of flesh touching another for fun—or babies."
Virgin Birth: It's Pagan, Guys. Get Over It. • Richard Carrier
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Hercules was not born of a virgin. Is Yeshua a Demigod?


"Hercules was the son of Zeus, king of the gods, and the mortal woman Alcmene. Zeus, who was always chasing one woman or another, took on the form of Alcmene's husband, Amphitryon, and visited Alcmene one night in her bed, and so Hercules was born a demi-god "

No but that is a different variation on the theme. This isn't hard to understand. A God (usually depicted as a man) somehow gets a human woman pregnant. Through magic, a magic lake, actual god-sex, it doesn't matter, it's the same concept. YOur dad is God and your earth mother gives you a connection to humanity.

Thor's dad - Odin, like Zeus, white beard, all powerful, mother was an earth goddess. So another variation. It's the sky-god plus earth mother concept that we see in myths over an over.
 

Pilgrim Soldier

Active Member
If you are referring to the supposed suffering of martyrs that appears to be an exaggerated early church story. Of the apostles only a couple at the most were known to have died for their beliefs. The rest appear to be only stories.
Jesus promised that every Christian, would suffer persecution and many would be executed for the faith in Him.

I'm not sure where you got your information, regarding martyrs, but the Bible (God's Word) tells us that all the apostles were executed except for John who escaped.

There's also the conservative estimate of 50 million Christians being burned and beheaded by the Vatican.

Our world view is shaped by who we believe in, God said that the heart of man is wicked above all things. So I refuse to put my faith in the most wicked of all things, I prefer to put my faith in God who is the most righteous of all.
 
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