Why Didn't God Leave Huge Quantities of Secular Evidence For Jesus?

[Skywalker]

All you are doing is confirming what I was saying? I don't care if it's a God marrying a woman or a "miraculous conception"? These are still myths?
Jesus in his humanity means he was a God and human, that is a demigod?
I know you will say "oh but Jesus was God". Again, don't care about the myths. Jesus as God is a creation of John. Saying that Jesus was God and thinking that that means this myth is real because of that is like saying the Bible is true because it says it's true.

Although it doesn't matter, the Bible isn't really clear, or cannot decide if Jesus really was God because it says things like Jesus will sit at the right hand of the father and his father was greater than him and so on.
As usual it's all contradictions only explained by outlandish apologetics.

A demigod is a descendant of God, not God in the flesh. The other writers of the four gospels believe that Jesus is God. Those Bible verses are not self contradictions.

 

[Skywalker]

The article uses Bart Ehrman quotes and opinions (a real biblical historian) several times. Bart says straight out that the gospels were written at least 40 years after the time Jesus taught and was written in a different language. His point is that it is in no way accurate to what was being taught.
Ehrman also explains that the gospels do not even try to pretend they are eyewitness accounts.
We know for sure Mark was the first gospel, the others were copied from Mark and Mark is full of parables, re-worked OT stories and all of the supernatural claims are unproven and similar to all other supernatural myths.

The idea that this one story is actually real is as unlikely as a story about Krishna or Zeus.

The gospels were written within twenty to forty years after Jesus was crucified. A Fictional Messiah? - BreakPoint

We know that Jesus lived because we have historical accounts that were recorded a mere twenty to forty years after His crucifixion. That’s within a single generation—less than the time separating us from the end of World War II—and far too brief a span for myths and legends to take hold.
In fact, if we compare the historical evidence for Jesus to the evidence for other figures who lived in ancient times, there’s just no comparison.

 

[Skywalker]

Clearly you do not care about what is true. Another article by a amateur? This is why you cannot trust amateur apologetics. They will only use facts that support their beliefs.
What he says about Dionysus resurrection -

"While most restoration accounts of Dionysus are too ambiguous to matter, there is one story that reads: “Dionysus was deceived by the Titans, and expelled from the throne of Jupiter, and torn in pieces by them, and his remains being afterwards put together again, he returned as it were once more to life, and ascended to heaven.”

Unfortunately there are accounts of his resurrection written around 50 BC in the Diodorus Library of History. Your apologist missed that.
Mr Apologist then seems to think that because other Gods didn't die on a cross this means it's different. Again, religious syncretism means each myth changes the details. The way each God dies isn't the point, it's that there is a death and resurrection. It's all copied mythology.



What Carrier said about Dionysis:

"
Dionysus (also popularly known as Bacchus) had many different tales told of him, just as Osiris did. But in one popularly known, he was killed by being torn apart as a baby (Justin Martyr, Apology 1.21; Plutarch, On Isis and Osiris 35; Diodorus, Library of History 5.75.4 and 3.62.6); he was then resurrected by a human woman (Semele) conceiving a new body for him in her womb after drinking a magic slushy made from bits of his corpse (Hyginus, Fabulae 167). This is a literal resurrection again, just by an elaborate mechanism. The god definitely dies, and then returns to life by acquiring the same kind of body he once had, assembled and “regrown” from parts of his old one. In this version of his myth, he is a full god (son of Zeus and Persephone) but still mortal (capable of being killed by dismemberment, like a vampire); he then is “reborn” a demigod (from the womb of a fully mortal human woman). He was the savior god central to the Bacchic mysteries, one of the most widely known and celebrated in the Western world at that time. Those baptized into his cult received eternal life in paradise; and just like Christians (1 Corinthians 15:29), Dionysians could even baptize themselves on behalf of deceased loved ones, and thus rescue those already dead.

Those who believed in Dionysus didn't believe that we need a Savior.

 

[Samael_Khan]

A lot of people born into Christianity reject it, like Katy Perry.

Yes, that as well.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

The gospels were written within twenty to forty years after Jesus was crucified. A Fictional Messiah? - BreakPoint

We know that Jesus lived because we have historical accounts that were recorded a mere twenty to forty years after His crucifixion. That’s within a single generation—less than the time separating us from the end of World War II—and far too brief a span for myths and legends to take hold.
In fact, if we compare the historical evidence for Jesus to the evidence for other figures who lived in ancient times, there’s just no comparison.

Just so the record is straight, Skywalker is NOT BEING TRUTHFUL WITH YOU. We have NO historical accounts of Jesus. Zip. Zero. Nada. Nothing was recorded by historians regarding Jesus, certainly nothing within 20-40 years of his supposed crucifixion. Skywalker is choosing to quote a source that is flat-out-lying to its readers. Jesus is the least represented figure in the historical record. Skywalker is referring to the Bible but Biblical scholars don't recognizing the gospels as being more than religious manifestos, nothing historical about them. They're statements of faith to be taken purely ON faith. Nothing else.

Once again we have nothing in the secular historical record about Jesus or the apostles.

 

[Skywalker]

Just so the record is straight, Skywalker is NOT BEING TRUTHFUL WITH YOU. We have NO historical accounts of Jesus. Zip. Zero. Nada. Nothing was recorded by historians regarding Jesus, certainly nothing within 20-40 years of his supposed crucifixion. Skywalker is choosing to quote a source that is flat-out-lying to its readers. Jesus is the least represented figure in the historical record. Skywalker is referring to the Bible but Biblical scholars don't recognizing the gospels as being more than religious manifestos, nothing historical about them. They're statements of faith to be taken purely ON faith. Nothing else.

Once again we have nothing in the secular historical record about Jesus or the apostles.

Tacitus was a historian, not a writer of the Bible. Roman Historian Tacitus Mentions Jesus: Our Best Secular Source | Reasons for Jesus

Roman Historian Tacitus Mentions Jesus: Our Best Secular Source

By J.P. Holding| Tacitus was a Roman historian writing early in the 2nd century A.D. His Annals provide us with a single reference to Jesus of considerable value. Rather frustratingly, much of his work has been lost, including a work which covers the years 29-32, where the trial of Jesus would have been had he recorded it [Meie.MarJ, 89].

 

[joelr]

Zoroaster is never described as a Savior. The Shocking Servant

He is.
Here is a link to Mary Boyce's book which you used as a quote.
Zoroastrians

scroll down to pg 42.

From the "dark ages" of the religion (9-6BC) Zoraster told of a coming world savior, virgin born but of human flesh who would engage in a cosmic struggle for mankind.

This is like the 5th time I've told you this? Why is denial so important to you? Clearly you are not comfortable with certain truths?

It's the basic idea of a god-man who is virgin born and saves humanity. The Jews made their own spin on it. But they got it from their captors the Persians.

 

[joelr]

How could the Christians have copied the Zoroastrian view of the Messiah if the blood of Zoroaster doesn't forgive people from their sins?

No way. I cannot believe you are still asking these questions? Sin forgiveness was something the Jews were really into. So when they took the myth they added the things to it that they wanted.
Sin forgiving may have been part of other mystery religions but those gospels were destroyed by the church.
All that matters is the dying/rising god-human who gives salvation to humanity. This was the popular idea. The Persian savior was also virgin born.

 

[joelr]

What evidence is there the Christian idea of the Messiah was borrowed from Zoroastrianism? The second coming of Zoroaster is not a consistent doctrine in their faith and many even believe the second coming will involve someone else.

The evidence is the Jewish religion had no afterlife, heaven, hell, world ends in fire and members get resurrected but the Persians did. For centuries the Jews did not have anything at all like these concepts.
Then, after the occupation, suddenly all these and more were added to the Jewish faith. That is evidence.

 

[Skywalker]

The evidence is the Jewish religion had no afterlife, heaven, hell, world ends in fire and members get resurrected but the Persians did. For centuries the Jews did not have anything at all like these concepts.
Then, after the occupation, suddenly all these and more were added to the Jewish faith. That is evidence.

Psalms mentions heaven, and that is before Zoroastrianism. Psalm 23:6.

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

 

[joelr]

The Jews rejected Jesus because they wanted the Messiah to be a political figure who would deliver them from the enemies and troubles. The Jewish belief about a Messiah was not that of a Savior. That's why I don't believe that the Jews got their beliefs from Zoroaster.

But Christianity attracted gentiles. Religions that gave eternal life were becoming very popular. But Christianity didn't really expand until Rome made it law in 3AD.
They are all myths. During the Persian occupation, over those several centuries they clearly added those myths because they were attractive to people. Savior figures are easy to get behind. Judaism/Moses needed an upgrade for the new generation. People were tired of going to the temple and were surrounded by savior figures in other religions. So they needed one. Many Jews were opposed. But it became open to gentiles.

 

[Skywalker]

He is.
Here is a link to Mary Boyce's book which you used as a quote.
Zoroastrians

scroll down to pg 42.

From the "dark ages" of the religion (9-6BC) Zoraster told of a coming world savior, virgin born but of human flesh who would engage in a cosmic struggle for mankind.

This is like the 5th time I've told you this? Why is denial so important to you? Clearly you are not comfortable with certain truths?

It's the basic idea of a god-man who is virgin born and saves humanity. The Jews made their own spin on it. But they got it from their captors the Persians.

She didn't quote any Zoroastrian texts that back that up.

 

[joelr]

Psalms mentions heaven, and that is before Zoroastrianism. Psalm 23:6.

Please read this. This explicitely says the Jews were heavily influenced by the Persians

It does mention heaven but not in the same way, it's where God lives, here is that mention:


"The God of the Israelites is described as ruling both Heaven and Earth (Genesis 14:19 22 24:3, Psalm 146:6).[27] Other passages, such as 1 Kings 8:27 state that even the vastness of Heaven cannot contain God's majesty.[27] A number of passages throughout the Hebrew Bible indicate that Heaven and Earth will one day come to an end (Psalm 102:26–27, Isaiah 13:5, 14:26, 24:18, 51:6, Jeremiah 4:23–28, and Zephaniah 1:2–3 and 18).[27] This view is paralleled in other ancient Near Eastern cultures, which also regarded Heaven and Earth as vulnerable and subject to dissolution.[27] However, the Hebrew Bible differs from other ancient Near Eastern cultures in that it portrays the God of Israel as independent of creation and unthreatened by its potential destruction.[27] Because most of the Hebrew Bible concerns the God of Israel's relationship with his people, most of the events described in it take place on Earth, not in Heaven.[30] The Deuteronomistic source, Deuteronomistic History, and Priestly source all portray the Temple in Jerusalem as the sole channel of communication between Earth and Heaven.[31]"


BUT THEN, 2nd temple period (PERSIAN INVASION)


"During the period of the Second Temple (c. 515 BC – 70 AD), the Hebrew people lived under the rule of first the Persian Achaemenid Empire, then the Greek kingdoms of the Diadochi, and finally the Roman Empire.[32] Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.[32] Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[33][34] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[34] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[34] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[34] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[32] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 – 31 BC).[29] Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead.["

 

[Skywalker]

But Christianity attracted gentiles. Religions that gave eternal life were becoming very popular. But Christianity didn't really expand until Rome made it law in 3AD.
They are all myths. During the Persian occupation, over those several centuries they clearly added those myths because they were attractive to people. Savior figures are easy to get behind. Judaism/Moses needed an upgrade for the new generation. People were tired of going to the temple and were surrounded by savior figures in other religions. So they needed one. Many Jews were opposed. But it became open to gentiles.

Christianity is not a faith of convenience. Seeking God and making God a part of your life involves self sacrifice. Doing religious rituals is a belief of convenience.

 

[joelr]

She didn't quote any Zoroastrian texts that back that up.

she does list the text? Y.43.3

you click on "look inside the book" and scroll to 42.
All throughout the book she talks about what texts she uses?

 

[Skywalker]

Please read this. This explicitely says the Jews were heavily influenced by the Persians

It does mention heaven but not in the same way, it's where God lives, here is that mention:


"The God of the Israelites is described as ruling both Heaven and Earth (Genesis 14:19 22 24:3, Psalm 146:6).[27] Other passages, such as 1 Kings 8:27 state that even the vastness of Heaven cannot contain God's majesty.[27] A number of passages throughout the Hebrew Bible indicate that Heaven and Earth will one day come to an end (Psalm 102:26–27, Isaiah 13:5, 14:26, 24:18, 51:6, Jeremiah 4:23–28, and Zephaniah 1:2–3 and 18).[27] This view is paralleled in other ancient Near Eastern cultures, which also regarded Heaven and Earth as vulnerable and subject to dissolution.[27] However, the Hebrew Bible differs from other ancient Near Eastern cultures in that it portrays the God of Israel as independent of creation and unthreatened by its potential destruction.[27] Because most of the Hebrew Bible concerns the God of Israel's relationship with his people, most of the events described in it take place on Earth, not in Heaven.[30] The Deuteronomistic source, Deuteronomistic History, and Priestly source all portray the Temple in Jerusalem as the sole channel of communication between Earth and Heaven.[31]"


BUT THEN, 2nd temple period (PERSIAN INVASION)


"During the period of the Second Temple (c. 515 BC – 70 AD), the Hebrew people lived under the rule of first the Persian Achaemenid Empire, then the Greek kingdoms of the Diadochi, and finally the Roman Empire.[32] Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.[32] Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[33][34] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[34] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[34] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[34] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[32] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 – 31 BC).[29] Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead.["

David wrote I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever. He didn't describe heaven simply as where God dwells, and this was before the Persians.

 

[Skywalker]

she does list the text? Y.43.3

you click on "look inside the book" and scroll to 42.
All throughout the book she talks about what texts she uses?

She didn't mention the Avesta.

 

[joelr]

Christianity is not a faith of convenience. Seeking God and making God a part of your life involves self sacrifice. Doing religious rituals is a belief of convenience.

That has nothing to do with where the myths came from.
What you said about god I heard the same from my friends in Islam, my GF who was Hindu, another GF in Islam, my Scientologist friends and it does not mean your imaginary friends are real.

 

[joelr]

David wrote I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever. He didn't describe heaven simply as where God dwells, and this was before the Persians.

did you even read all of the things the Jews took after the invasion? There is ZERO doubt here that this is all mythology.
Second Temple Judaism
During the period of the Second Temple (c. 515 BC – 70 AD), the Hebrew people lived under the rule of first the Persian Achaemenid Empire, then the Greek kingdoms of the Diadochi, and finally the Roman Empire.[32] Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.[32] Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[33][34] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[34] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[34] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[34] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[32] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 – 31 BC).[29] Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead.[29]

 

[Skywalker]

did you even read all of the things the Jews took after the invasion? There is ZERO doubt here that this is all mythology.
Second Temple Judaism
During the period of the Second Temple (c. 515 BC – 70 AD), the Hebrew people lived under the rule of first the Persian Achaemenid Empire, then the Greek kingdoms of the Diadochi, and finally the Roman Empire.[32] Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.[32] Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[33][34] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[34] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[34] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[34] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[32] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 – 31 BC).[29] Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead.[29]

David mentioned dwelling in the house of the Lord before second temple Judaism.