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Why Didn't God Leave Huge Quantities of Secular Evidence For Jesus?

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Yes Heaven was mentioned as a place where God dwells. It was not yet the Persian version.

I literally cannot believe you expect the Jewish scripture to actually mention another religion they are taking ideas from??????

What happens is a Jewish "prophet" one day says "I'm getting a communication from God, I must go pray......." then he comes back and says "Yahweh said we too are getting a savior, ours will be the true savior....."

And so on. It's all B.S,. But they don't CREDIT other religions??

Does Noahs ark credit the Epic of Gilamesh? NO?!
Does the creation narrative credit the Mesopotamian myths it closely follows? NO!?!?!

David mentioned dwelling in heaven with God in the Psalms, and this was before the Persian invasion. Psalm 23:6

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

Are you saying that if you didn't believe Noah's Ark and the creation narrative were taken from the Epic of Gilgamesh and Mesopotamian myths you wouldn't think that Christian sources not mentioning Zoroastrianism is proof they aren't borrowed from them? Some Christians think Adam and Eve could have details that are allegories.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member

it supports that the Bible has progressive revelation, and the interpretations of Hebrew cosmologists and beliefs about the firmament in Genesis 1:6 arent the only things Heaven is a reference to. The Bible talks more about heaven in the New Testament than in the Old Testament, but the concept is in both.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
David mentioned dwelling in heaven with God in the Psalms, and this was before the Persian invasion. Psalm 23:6



Are you saying that if you didn't believe Noah's Ark and the creation narrative were taken from the Epic of Gilgamesh and Mesopotamian myths you wouldn't think that Christian sources not mentioning Zoroastrianism is proof they aren't borrowed from them? Some Christians think Adam and Eve could have details that are allegories.
Ummm no:

Psalms - Wikipedia
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
What was convenient about the early Christians believing that God was their Savior and being persecuted for their faith and not recanting? Sin separating us from God are not beliefs that exist in Islam and Hinduism and Scientology.
Do you care at all about what is true? Why do you keep making things up based on assumptions?

Even though what you say isn't true it doesn't matter that each religion has different slants on things like sin. It doesn't magically make any one religion real and true. They are all mythologies made up to give people guidance and hope.

Sin is the most dominant theme of every religion and religious philosophy. In Hinduism, sin is a formation or a consequence of desire-ridden actions, evil nature, karma, Maya and dereliction of Dharma. The idea of sin forms the basis of Hindu ethics and morality. Its purpose is to facilitate the order and regularity of the world, enforcement of Dharma and the evolution of beings through a corrective and punitive process. Sin may arise from both intentional and unintentional actions and through negligence and ignorance. In this essay, we will examine the meaning and significance of sin, how it arises and what remedies we have to resolve it.
According to Hinduism, as in Christianity sin may arise from disobedience to God’s eternal law (Dharma). True, it is difficult to follow the laws of God, but it is an obligation for humans. Their mistakes can be forgiven if they uphold Dharma as a service to God. Further, the sins which they accumulate during their lives upon earth can be removed, neutralized or cleansed through austere self-effort and devotion to God. God is all pervading. He pervades his creation also, which is inseparable from him. Hence, it is also divine and pure, although temporarily it may be clouded by impurities, just as the sun is temporarily obstructed by the clouds.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Yes Heaven was mentioned as a place where God dwells. It was not yet the Persian version.

I literally cannot believe you expect the Jewish scripture to actually mention another religion they are taking ideas from??????

What happens is a Jewish "prophet" one day says "I'm getting a communication from God, I must go pray......." then he comes back and says "Yahweh said we too are getting a savior, ours will be the true savior....."

And so on. It's all B.S,. But they don't CREDIT other religions??

Does Noahs ark credit the Epic of Gilamesh? NO?!
Does the creation narrative credit the Mesopotamian myths it closely follows? NO!?!?!

The flood story existing in other faiths is evidence that there was a global flood. There are other possibilities for the flood story being in other faiths besides the Bible borrowing from them.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member

Psalms was written before Second Temple Judaism and it mentions hell. “They Have No Rest Day Nor Night”

Repeatedly the Bible teaches that the just and the wicked go to DIFFERENT places in eternity. They do NOT all go to the same eternal destiny. Psalm 9:17 makes this clear, “The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.” If the righteous and the wicked go to the same place in the grave, then Psalm 9:17 would make no sense at all.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Genesis 2:1 is before Second Temple Judaism and the Persian invasion, and it mentions humans having a soul.
You were talking about when those were written, not when they supposedly happened. They are not one and the same. Quite a bit of the Bible dates to only roughly 500 BCE. Not earlier.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
it supports that the Bible has progressive revelation, and the interpretations of Hebrew cosmologists and beliefs about the firmament in Genesis 1:6 arent the only things Heaven is a reference to. The Bible talks more about heaven in the New Testament than in the Old Testament, but the concept is in both.


The modern concept of heaven and God vs Satan is a Persian concept. So they were progressive in that sense.
The firmament is ridiculous bronze age cosmology that is simply wrong. The Hindu had a far more progressive creation story and timeline.
The firmament and celestial temples were in the upper atmosphere. It's all complete nonsense. The NT talks about heaven because they learned a better version of the fiction and adopted it. OT cosmology is awful. The NT is heaven, Satan, saviors, apoctaliptic fiction ---all taken from the Perians.
Sorry, it's the Persians who shaped Christianity along with Greek and mystery religions.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Do you care at all about what is true? Why do you keep making things up based on assumptions?

Even though what you say isn't true it doesn't matter that each religion has different slants on things like sin. It doesn't magically make any one religion real and true. They are all mythologies made up to give people guidance and hope.

Sin is the most dominant theme of every religion and religious philosophy. In Hinduism, sin is a formation or a consequence of desire-ridden actions, evil nature, karma, Maya and dereliction of Dharma. The idea of sin forms the basis of Hindu ethics and morality. Its purpose is to facilitate the order and regularity of the world, enforcement of Dharma and the evolution of beings through a corrective and punitive process. Sin may arise from both intentional and unintentional actions and through negligence and ignorance. In this essay, we will examine the meaning and significance of sin, how it arises and what remedies we have to resolve it.
According to Hinduism, as in Christianity sin may arise from disobedience to God’s eternal law (Dharma). True, it is difficult to follow the laws of God, but it is an obligation for humans. Their mistakes can be forgiven if they uphold Dharma as a service to God. Further, the sins which they accumulate during their lives upon earth can be removed, neutralized or cleansed through austere self-effort and devotion to God. God is all pervading. He pervades his creation also, which is inseparable from him. Hence, it is also divine and pure, although temporarily it may be clouded by impurities, just as the sun is temporarily obstructed by the clouds.

Hinduism doesn't teach that sin separates us from God and we need a Savior because of our sins. The Bible teaches that none of us can perfectly follow God's laws and that's why we need a Savior. That's what the Ten Commandments were for-to prepare the people of the Old Testament for the Messiah. Dharma is different from believing in Jesus because we cannot bribe the judge by our good deeds. If someone did that in a court of law their sentence would increase. Hinduism doesn't teach being saved by grace.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Hinduism doesn't teach that sin separates us from God and we need a Savior because of our sins. The Bible teaches that none of us can perfectly follow God's laws and that's why we need a Savior. That's what the Ten Commandments were for-to prepare the people of the Old Testament for the Messiah. Dharma is different from believing in Jesus because we cannot bribe the judge by our good deeds. If someone did that in a court of law their sentence would increase. Hinduism doesn't teach being saved by grace.
The Ten Commandments. I remember someone running away from that discussion. The Tenth Commandment is of course a ban on cheeseburgers.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Psalms was written before Second Temple Judaism and it mentions hell. “They Have No Rest Day Nor Night”


It originally said sheol which is not the Persian hell but return to the grave.


"Sheol is not hell as the place of torment. What is meant is that the career of the wicked in this world will be cut short by the judgement of God. Cp. Psalm 55:15, Psalm 63:9. But why ‘return?’ Man must ‘return’ unto the ground from which he was taken, to the dust of which he was made, to his elementary atoms (Genesis 3:19; Psalm 104:29; Psalm 90:3). A still closer parallel is to be found in the words of Job (Job 30:23) ‘unto death wilt thou make me return.’ Cp. too Job 1:21. The shadowy existence in Sheol to which man passes at death is comparable to the state of non-existence out of which he was called at birth. “From the great deep to the great deep he goes.” There Job will have no more enjoyment of life, there ‘the wicked’ will have no more power for evil.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
But Christianity attracted gentiles. Religions that gave eternal life were becoming very popular. But Christianity didn't really expand until Rome made it law in 3AD.
They are all myths. During the Persian occupation, over those several centuries they clearly added those myths because they were attractive to people. Savior figures are easy to get behind. Judaism/Moses needed an upgrade for the new generation. People were tired of going to the temple and were surrounded by savior figures in other religions. So they needed one. Many Jews were opposed. But it became open to gentiles.

Christianity was always a narrow path, from the time of Jesus to the Roman empire and now. Jesus said narrow is the way that leads to life. Matthew 7:14.

Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
But Christianity attracted gentiles. Religions that gave eternal life were becoming very popular. But Christianity didn't really expand until Rome made it law in 3AD.
They are all myths. During the Persian occupation, over those several centuries they clearly added those myths because they were attractive to people. Savior figures are easy to get behind. Judaism/Moses needed an upgrade for the new generation. People were tired of going to the temple and were surrounded by savior figures in other religions. So they needed one. Many Jews were opposed. But it became open to gentiles.

Believing in heaven is different from believing that we need a Savior to save us from our sins.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
It originally said sheol which is not the Persian hell but return to the grave.


"Sheol is not hell as the place of torment. What is meant is that the career of the wicked in this world will be cut short by the judgement of God. Cp. Psalm 55:15, Psalm 63:9. But why ‘return?’ Man must ‘return’ unto the ground from which he was taken, to the dust of which he was made, to his elementary atoms (Genesis 3:19; Psalm 104:29; Psalm 90:3). A still closer parallel is to be found in the words of Job (Job 30:23) ‘unto death wilt thou make me return.’ Cp. too Job 1:21. The shadowy existence in Sheol to which man passes at death is comparable to the state of non-existence out of which he was called at birth. “From the great deep to the great deep he goes.” There Job will have no more enjoyment of life, there ‘the wicked’ will have no more power for evil.

If the term sheol refers to Persian hell, it could have existed earlier to refer to the view of hell mentioned in the scriptures.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
The modern concept of heaven and God vs Satan is a Persian concept. So they were progressive in that sense.
The firmament is ridiculous bronze age cosmology that is simply wrong. The Hindu had a far more progressive creation story and timeline.
The firmament and celestial temples were in the upper atmosphere. It's all complete nonsense. The NT talks about heaven because they learned a better version of the fiction and adopted it. OT cosmology is awful. The NT is heaven, Satan, saviors, apoctaliptic fiction ---all taken from the Perians.
Sorry, it's the Persians who shaped Christianity along with Greek and mystery religions.

The belief in the firmament doesn't support the earth being flat. The Firmament: What Did God Create on Day 2?

If, on the other hand, such flat-earth proponents say that the sun, moon, and stars are in the firmament (which they take to be a solid dome over the atmosphere), then it is hard to conceive how there can be any movement of the heavenly bodies. Also, they would all appear the same distance from the observer, and we would never see a lunar eclipse.27
 
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