Why Didn't God Leave Huge Quantities of Secular Evidence For Jesus?

[SeekingAllTruth]

Actually they can't be. The author of Luke was wrong and probably lying with his Nativity story. It fails repeatedly.

Show evidence for your post or its simply mere opinion. Opinion isn't evidence.

How do we know Luke based this genealogy on any sort of records. Nothing exists to corroborate the names he puts in there. To make matter worse, Matthew's genealogy is completely different from Luke's. How does that happen? The general scholarly consensus is that the genealogies are invented. You can see for yourself. Half the names don't even match. Even Joseph, Jesus' supposed father has two different fathers :

Matthew's Genealogy for Jesus:

David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah’s wife,

7 Solomon the father of Rehoboam,

Rehoboam the father of Abijah,

Abijah the father of Asa,

8 Asa the father of Jehoshaphat,

Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram,

Jehoram the father of Uzziah,

9 Uzziah the father of Jotham,

Jotham the father of Ahaz,

Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,

10 Hezekiah the father of Manasseh,

Manasseh the father of Amon,

Amon the father of Josiah,

11 and Josiah the father of Jeconiahc]">[c] and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.

12 After the exile to Babylon:

Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,

Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,

13 Zerubbabel the father of Abihud,

Abihud the father of Eliakim,

Eliakim the father of Azor,

14 Azor the father of Zadok,

Zadok the father of Akim,

Akim the father of Elihud,

15 Elihud the father of Eleazar,

Eleazar the father of Matthan,

Matthan the father of Jacob,

16 and >>>>>Jacob the father of Joseph,<<<<<< the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.

And here is Luke's in reverse order

23 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of >>>>> Joseph, the son of Heli,<<<<<<

24 the son of Matthat,

the son of Levi, the son of Melki,

the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,

25 the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos,

the son of Nahum, the son of Esli,

the son of Naggai, 26 the son of Maath,

the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein,

the son of Josek, the son of Joda,

27 the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa,

the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel,

the son of Neri, 28 the son of Melki,

the son of Addi, the son of Cosam,

the son of Elmadam, the son of Er,

29 the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer,

the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat,

the son of Levi, 30 the son of Simeon,

the son of Judah, the son of Joseph,

the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim,

31 the son of Melea, the son of Menna,

the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan,

the son of David,

 

[Skywalker]

How do we know Luke based this genealogy on any sort of records. Nothing exists to corroborate the names he puts in there. To make matter worse, Matthew's genealogy is completely different from Luke's. How does that happen? The general scholarly consensus is that the genealogies are invented. You can see for yourself. Half the names don't even match. Even Joseph, Jesus' supposed father has two different fathers :

Matthew's Genealogy for Jesus:

David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah’s wife,

7 Solomon the father of Rehoboam,

Rehoboam the father of Abijah,

Abijah the father of Asa,

8 Asa the father of Jehoshaphat,

Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram,

Jehoram the father of Uzziah,

9 Uzziah the father of Jotham,

Jotham the father of Ahaz,

Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,

10 Hezekiah the father of Manasseh,

Manasseh the father of Amon,

Amon the father of Josiah,

11 and Josiah the father of Jeconiahc]">[c] and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.

12 After the exile to Babylon:

Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,

Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,

13 Zerubbabel the father of Abihud,

Abihud the father of Eliakim,

Eliakim the father of Azor,

14 Azor the father of Zadok,

Zadok the father of Akim,

Akim the father of Elihud,

15 Elihud the father of Eleazar,

Eleazar the father of Matthan,

Matthan the father of Jacob,

16 and >>>>>Jacob the father of Joseph,<<<<<< the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.

And here is Luke's in reverse order

23 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of >>>>> Joseph, the son of Heli,<<<<<<

24 the son of Matthat,

the son of Levi, the son of Melki,

the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,

25 the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos,

the son of Nahum, the son of Esli,

the son of Naggai, 26 the son of Maath,

the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein,

the son of Josek, the son of Joda,

27 the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa,

the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel,

the son of Neri, 28 the son of Melki,

the son of Addi, the son of Cosam,

the son of Elmadam, the son of Er,

29 the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer,

the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat,

the son of Levi, 30 the son of Simeon,

the son of Judah, the son of Joseph,

the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim,

31 the son of Melea, the son of Menna,

the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan,

the son of David,

Joseph was a descendant of Solomon and Mary was a descendant of Nathan. Is Jesus a descendant of both David and Solomon?

What many people overlook is that Joseph was the biological son of Jacob (Matthew 1:16), who was a biological descendant of Solomon. However, Heli (Luke 3:23) actually was the father-in-law of Joseph. That is, Heli was Mary's father, and he was a biological descendant of Nathan (Luke 3:31), who was Solomon's brother (1 Chronicles 3:5). I believe that Mary had no brothers. Therefore, Mary's husband Joseph, who was Heli's son-in-law, became Heli's legal son to continue Heli's family line.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Joseph was a descendant of Solomon and Mary was a descendant of Nathan. Is Jesus a descendant of both David and Solomon?

This does not fly of course. It is apologetics, also known as lying for Jesus. Until your sources can be honest about how Luke screwed up in regards to the Census of Quirinius they are of no value at all.

 

[Skywalker]

This does not fly of course. It is apologetics, also known as lying for Jesus. Until your sources can be honest about how Luke screwed up in regards to the Census of Quirinius they are of no value at all.

What evidence is there of Joseph not being a descendant of Solomon or Mary not being a descendant of Nathan?

 

[Subduction Zone]

What evidence is there of Joseph not being a descendant of Solomon or Mary not being a descendant of Nathan?

You have it backwards. You asked the wrong question. Do you know how you screwed up?

 

[Skywalker]

You have it backwards. You asked the wrong question. Do you know how you screwed up?

Mary might not have been a descendant of Heli but she was a descendant of Nathan.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Mary might not have been a descendant of Heli but she was a descendant of Nathan.

Why would anyone believe that she was a descendent of either?

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Joseph was a descendant of Solomon and Mary was a descendant of Nathan. Is Jesus a descendant of both David and Solomon?

Nope. Sorry. There's no proof for your assertion. How do you explain that Joseph had two different fathers?

 

[night912]

What evidence is there of Joseph not being a descendant of Solomon or Mary not being a descendant of Nathan?

What evidence is there of Joseph being a descendant of Solomon or Mary being a descendant of Nathan?

Keep in mind that claims are not evidence for a claim. It's also important to understand who is the one making the claim and what is being claimed.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

What evidence is there of Joseph being a descendant of Solomon or Mary being a descendant of Nathan?

Keep in mind that claims are not evidence for a claim. It's also important to understand who is the one making the claim and what is being claimed.

I agree from my point of view. Luke has one genealogy for Jesus and Matthew has a different one. Apologists have tried to skirt this glaring inconsistency by claiming one was Mary's and the other Joseph's even though both start with Joseph's father, not Mary's. There are no records we can look at to corroborate their crazy genealogies. Most Bible scholars dismiss them as pure invention to get this Jesus character linked to David so they can claim Jesus will inherit David's throne forever and thus legitimize Yahweh's promise to David.

 

[Inquire of God]

Why didn't God leave behind a huge trove of secular evidence for Jesus having lived on earth, dying on the cross and all the supernatural events accompanying the crucifixion like dead bodies rising from the grave and walking around Jerusalem? If God really wanted us all to believe Jesus is His son who was born into this world for the sole purpose of dying for our sins--and that it was absolutely vital for us to believe Jesus died for our sins in order for God to keep from having to send us to hell for not believing in him, then wouldn't He have done everything in His power to leave behind secular evidence so overwhelming that only a fool or a madman would deny Jesus was divine? Wouldn't God have made sure that every historian in Jesus' time had heard of or witnessed Jesus' death and resurrection and ascension and then written about it? Wouldn't God have made sure that these accounts were perfectly preserved like Julius Caesar's Gallic Wars? Wouldn't God have made absolutely certain that the original gospel accounts from the apostles had been perfectly preserved for future generations so that we had first-hand testimony of what Jesus said and did?

Why instead did God allow whatever might have been written about Jesus by a known historian to be completely lost or destroyed? Why did 50-100 years have to transpire before someone finally decided to write the gospels, and these weren't even from eyewitnesses--they were Greek Christian scholars writing in perfect Koine Greek? And if they had no eyewitnesses or written testimonies to get their information from then how did they know the incredible minute details that appear in their accounts? How, for example did Luke know that an angel appeared to Jesus to comfort him in the Garden of Gethsemane when there were no witnesses to this miraculous event? Further, no manuscripts of any of the New Testament writings surface until the middle/late part of the 2nd Century. Why is that if God was divinely guiding the transmission of information about Jesus?

I can' seem to find answers for these questions that constantly pop into my mind. I lost my Christian faith because of the complete lack of evidence for Jesus outside the Bible.

You are asking why God did not do something that He actually did.
No one can convince you of things that you refuse to accept or believe.

 

[Skywalker]

What evidence is there of Joseph being a descendant of Solomon or Mary being a descendant of Nathan?

Keep in mind that claims are not evidence for a claim. It's also important to understand who is the one making the claim and what is being claimed.

Joseph being a descendant of Solomon made Jesus a descendant of Solomon, because a step relative is still a close relative. Why Does Jesus Have Two Different Genealogies (Matthew 1:1-16; Luke 3:23-38)?

The genealogy in Matthew 1 is clearly that of Joseph, Mary's husband. Matthew records it for legal purposes. He is writing to prove to the Jews that Jesus is the Messiah, and the Jews' custom in keeping records is to trace descent through the father. Legally, the Jews of Jesus' day looked on Jesus as a son of Joseph (John 6:42). Also, Joseph's lineage is given to emphasize the fact that Jesus had been born of a virgin. Because of a curse that God placed on one of Joseph's ancestors, Jesus could never sit upon the throne of David if Joseph had been His natural father.

 

[night912]

Joseph being a descendant of Solomon made Jesus a descendant of Solomon, because a step relative is still a close relative. Why Does Jesus Have Two Different Genealogies (Matthew 1:1-16; Luke 3:23-38)?

I'm asking for the evidence to the claim, and not the claim itself.

 

[Skywalker]

I'm asking for the evidence to the claim, and not the claim itself.

It's supported by how Jewish customs work, what defines close family, and the Old Testament.

 

[night912]

It's supported by how Jewish customs work, what defines close family, and the Old Testament.

I'm talking about the evidence, not the method that's being used. Jewish customs didn't come up with the names in the genealogy.

These methods can be used for a made genealogy. Do you agree with that? Suppose you start with a make believe person and then you trace the lineage back using those methods. As long as you give that person's parents famous names and/or royalty, you can trace it back to king David.

 

[Skywalker]

I'm talking about the evidence, not the method that's being used. Jewish customs didn't come up with the names in the genealogy.

These methods can be used for a made genealogy. Do you agree with that? Suppose you start with a make believe person and then you trace the lineage back using those methods. As long as you give that person's parents famous names and/or royalty, you can trace it back to king David.

The Scriptures support Mary being a descendant of Nathan and Joseph being a descendant of Solomon.

 

[night912]

The Scriptures support Mary being a descendant of Nathan and Joseph being a descendant of Solomon.

Again, I'm asking for evidence, not a claim.

 

[Skywalker]

Again, I'm asking for evidence, not a claim.

Tanakh or Old Testament prophecies don't say that the Tanakh has to mention evidence of Mary being descended from Nathan.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Tanakh or Old Testament prophecies don't say that the Tanakh has to mention evidence of Mary being descended from Nathan.

That is still not evidence.

 

[Skywalker]

That is still not evidence.

The Old Testament prophecies don't say that that type of evidence has to exist.