Why Didn't God Leave Huge Quantities of Secular Evidence For Jesus?

[Skywalker]

No, Jesus/gospel writers clearly believed in the demonology of the times and it included a devil and a hell.
Early church fathers even used Satan as an excuse for many centuries regarding why older religions also had characters similar to Jesus. They claimed Satan meddled with history to fool Christians.
Matthew 25:41 ESV /
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 20:14 ESV /
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Mark 9:43 ESV /
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.

I understand most modern ideas about hell come from other sources like Dante. Neither here nor there. All stories and myths.

I don't know about hell being a literal fire, but I believe that it is eternal separation from God.

Even without the Bible, people know that the devil and demons exist.

Satan copies God. Satan, the Antichrist, and False Prophet is the Unholy Trinity. Satan tempted Jesus to worship him. God has angels. Satan took one third of the angels with him when he rebelled.

Truth and lies are mixed. Just because Dante made up mythology about hell, doesn't mean that there isn't a very real hell.

 

[Skywalker]

And a Hindu can say everyone has the secret desire to follow Lord Krishna. Your claims have no evidence.

Weird that you would say Yahweh is fair and just? Is it fair and just to kill everything living in 6 cities and in all others take women and children as "plunder".
I already know you will point to ridiculous apologetics like "they were all evil". Yeah, all the children were evil?
There even is modern scholarship on the Canaanites and guess what, not evil. Just normal farmers like the Israelites.
Sends a plague to kill 70,00, wow, so just. Were all those babies evil babies? Terrible myths. Luckily there is zero evidence for any of it being true.

The Caananites were involved in demonic practices. Why did God condone such terrible violence in the Old Testament? | GotQuestions.org

A basic knowledge of Canaanite culture reveals its inherent moral wickedness. The Canaanites were a brutal, aggressive people who engaged in bestiality, incest, and even child sacrifice. Deviant sexual acts were the norm. The Canaanites’ sin was so repellent that God said, “The land vomited out its inhabitants” (Leviticus 18:25). Even so, the destruction was directed more at the Canaanite religion (Deuteronomy 7:3–5; 12:2–3) than at the Canaanite people per se. The judgment was not ethnically motivated. Individual Canaanites, like Rahab in Jericho, could still find that mercy follows repentance (Joshua 2). God’s desire is that the wicked turn from their sin rather than die (Ezekiel 18:31–32; 33:11).

 

[joelr]

How can we stand in the presence of God without accepting the free gift of salvation? The Case for Faith: Objection #6 | Satisfaction Through Christ

First you have no evidence that Yahweh is real. None whatsoever. Then you have a myth that claims you need saving from this "sin-force" that you can get rid of if you buy into this myth. No evidence of that either.
A large percent of Christians no longer even believe in hell so your religion can't even seem to agree on the basics.

 

[Skywalker]

And a Hindu can say everyone has the secret desire to follow Lord Krishna. Your claims have no evidence.

Weird that you would say Yahweh is fair and just? Is it fair and just to kill everything living in 6 cities and in all others take women and children as "plunder".
I already know you will point to ridiculous apologetics like "they were all evil". Yeah, all the children were evil?
There even is modern scholarship on the Canaanites and guess what, not evil. Just normal farmers like the Israelites.
Sends a plague to kill 70,00, wow, so just. Were all those babies evil babies? Terrible myths. Luckily there is zero evidence for any of it being true.

God being merciful, loving, and forgiving in other beliefs too doesn't take away from what God did on the cross, because truth and lies are mixed.

Warfare in the Old Testament existed under different circumstances than modern warfare. What about God’s cruelty against the Midianites

1. The Midianite parents would have been legally/ethically responsible for this situation falling upon their children—NOT the Israelites;
2. This situation was forced upon the Israelites by the unprovoked treachery of the Midianites;
3. No ANE land-based and/or blood-succession-based civilization had means for assimilating foreign males into them, except as severely constrained/debilitated slaves (e.g., “prisoners were often blinded en masse. When brought to their captors’ land, they could still perform certain tasks, such as carrying water from a well or canal with a bucket and a rope” [OTLAM:237]);
4. All ANE civilizations recognized the military threat/risk that male slaves (even children) of foreign stock represented. Even the case in which David ‘served’ the Philistines, the Philistine leaders were sensitive to the issue—that David might ‘turn on his Philistine masters’ in the heat of battle (1 Sam 29);
5. There were no ‘social relief’ institutions in this world [only the largest of empires could afford to take in destitute women and children as temple ‘personnel’—see OT:CANE:445], and the land in which this event occurred was depopulated .(“Those who were able to flee from their conquerors often died of exposure, starvation, or thirst” [OTLAM:237])
6. There would be no practical way to transport these boys to their ‘next of kin’ down south, and there was no guarantee that they would take them in anyway. Even the Kenites, generally loyal to Israel, were divided in policy, as Heber the Kenite’s alliance with Syria in Judges indicates. “The propensity of pastoral nomads for raids, or razzias, both against one another and against sedentists is well attested in the near eastern historical record.” [OT:CANE:251]

 

[Skywalker]

First you have no evidence that Yahweh is real. None whatsoever. Then you have a myth that claims you need saving from this "sin-force" that you can get rid of if you buy into this myth. No evidence of that either.
A large percent of Christians no longer even believe in hell so your religion can't even seem to agree on the basics.

Many Christians don't believe that hell and the devil are real because there are false teachings taught in many churches. 1st Timothy 4:1

1st Timothy 4:1

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

 

[joelr]

I don't know about hell being a literal fire, but I believe that it is eternal separation from God.

Well your own scripture seems to disagree with you.

Even without the Bible, people know that the devil and demons exist.

Yes and they know alien abductions exist, Big Foot, and hundreds of different cultural entities like Lephricons and Sprites in Ireland and several from every civilization. Except there really isn't any good evidence.
Most Christians no longer even believe in hell or Satan. Again, you have no evidence, just stories that look like myths.

Satan copies God. Satan, the Antichrist, and False Prophet is the Unholy Trinity. Satan tempted Jesus to worship him. God has angels. Satan took one third of the angels with him when he rebelled.

As we have already seen Satan was a copy of the Persian devil. Sorry, I'm sticking with academia for knowledge instead of anecdotes, heresay and myths.

During the Second Temple Period, when Jews were living in the Achaemenid Empire, Judaism was heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism, the religion of the Achaemenids.[27][8][28] Jewish conceptions of Satan were impacted by Angra Mainyu,[8][29] the Zoroastrian god of evil, darkness, and ignorance.[8] In the Septuagint, the Hebrew ha-Satan in Job and Zechariah is translated by the Greek word diabolos (slanderer), the same word in the Greek New Testament from which the English word "devil" is derived.[30] Where satan is used to refer to human enemies in the Hebrew Bible, such as Hadad the Edomite and Rezon the Syrian, the word is left untranslated but transliterated in the Greek as satan, a neologism in Greek.[30]

The idea of Satan as an opponent of God and a purely evil figure seems to have taken root in Jewish pseudepigrapha during the Second Temple Period,[

Truth and lies are mixed. Just because Dante made up mythology about hell, doesn't mean that there isn't a very real hell.

Right and the Israelites realized there is a very real hell right around when the Persians were invading and living in their land. Wow, what a coincidence because the Persians already had a devil who was at war with God and all the associated myths.


Does this sound familiar?


The doctrinal premises are (1) good will eventually prevail over evil; (2) creation was initially perfectly good, but was subsequently corrupted by evil; (3) the world will ultimately be restored to the perfection it had at the time of creation; (4) the "salvation for the individual depended on the sum of [that person's] thoughts, words and deeds, and there could be no intervention, whether compassionate or capricious, by any divine being to alter this." Thus, each human bears the responsibility for the fate of his own soul, and simultaneously shares in the responsibility for the fate of the world.[1]

 

[joelr]

Baal coming back to life had to do with the fertility cult that his religion was a part of. That has nothing to do with why the Bible says Jesus came back to life after he was crucified for our sins. ‘Why did Jesus die and rise again?’

Baal was an early resurrecting god. Before the Hellinization of deities happened. Once again, just because one myth makes changes doesn't make it real.

 

[Skywalker]

First you have no evidence that Yahweh is real. None whatsoever. Then you have a myth that claims you need saving from this "sin-force" that you can get rid of if you buy into this myth. No evidence of that either.
A large percent of Christians no longer even believe in hell so your religion can't even seem to agree on the basics.

The God of the Bible is loving but also holy and just. God has no favorites. The God of the Bible is a Savior. Saying that a doctor saved your life is wrong because it only God saves. That shows that God is a Savior.

 

[Skywalker]

Well your own scripture seems to disagree with you.


Yes and they know alien abductions exist, Big Foot, and hundreds of different cultural entities like Lephricons and Sprites in Ireland and several from every civilization. Except there really isn't any good evidence.
Most Christians no longer even believe in hell or Satan. Again, you have no evidence, just stories that look like myths.


As we have already seen Satan was a copy of the Persian devil. Sorry, I'm sticking with academia for knowledge instead of anecdotes, heresay and myths.

During the Second Temple Period, when Jews were living in the Achaemenid Empire, Judaism was heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism, the religion of the Achaemenids.[27][8][28] Jewish conceptions of Satan were impacted by Angra Mainyu,[8][29] the Zoroastrian god of evil, darkness, and ignorance.[8] In the Septuagint, the Hebrew ha-Satan in Job and Zechariah is translated by the Greek word diabolos (slanderer), the same word in the Greek New Testament from which the English word "devil" is derived.[30] Where satan is used to refer to human enemies in the Hebrew Bible, such as Hadad the Edomite and Rezon the Syrian, the word is left untranslated but transliterated in the Greek as satan, a neologism in Greek.[30]

The idea of Satan as an opponent of God and a purely evil figure seems to have taken root in Jewish pseudepigrapha during the Second Temple Period,[


Right and the Israelites realized there is a very real hell right around when the Persians were invading and living in their land. Wow, what a coincidence because the Persians already had a devil who was at war with God and all the associated myths.


Does this sound familiar?


The doctrinal premises are (1) good will eventually prevail over evil; (2) creation was initially perfectly good, but was subsequently corrupted by evil; (3) the world will ultimately be restored to the perfection it had at the time of creation; (4) the "salvation for the individual depended on the sum of [that person's] thoughts, words and deeds, and there could be no intervention, whether compassionate or capricious, by any divine being to alter this." Thus, each human bears the responsibility for the fate of his own soul, and simultaneously shares in the responsibility for the fate of the world.[1]

Some alleged similarities between Jesus and pagan deities could be Satan and demons copying God. 1st Corinthians 1;20 says

But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

 

[joelr]

Many Christians don't believe that hell and the devil are real because there are false teachings taught in many churches. 1st Timothy 4:1

1st Timothy 4:1

They are all false teachings because the stories are not real. The earliest version of the 1st gospel (Mark) is fragment p45, it's from 220AD. So we have no idea what the originals even said.

 

[joelr]

The God of the Bible is loving but also holy and just. God has no favorites. The God of the Bible is a Savior. Saying that a doctor saved your life is wrong because it only God saves. That shows that God is a Savior.

You are just quoting myths? I don't care what ancient stories say.

 

[Skywalker]

Baal was an early resurrecting god. Before the Hellinization of deities happened. Once again, just because one myth makes changes doesn't make it real.

Just because there are superficial detail similarities doesn't mean that something is connected to something else. Jesus died and rose again for our sins. That doesn't have anything to do with fertility cult symbolism.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

The mistakes of the church have nothing to do with following Jesus. The church is not acting Christian at times because they are just human beings who make mistakes like everyone else.

One way or the other the number of people who call themselves Christian and identify with Jesus is diminishing. Real fast.

 

[Skywalker]

Well your own scripture seems to disagree with you.


Yes and they know alien abductions exist, Big Foot, and hundreds of different cultural entities like Lephricons and Sprites in Ireland and several from every civilization. Except there really isn't any good evidence.
Most Christians no longer even believe in hell or Satan. Again, you have no evidence, just stories that look like myths.


As we have already seen Satan was a copy of the Persian devil. Sorry, I'm sticking with academia for knowledge instead of anecdotes, heresay and myths.

During the Second Temple Period, when Jews were living in the Achaemenid Empire, Judaism was heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism, the religion of the Achaemenids.[27][8][28] Jewish conceptions of Satan were impacted by Angra Mainyu,[8][29] the Zoroastrian god of evil, darkness, and ignorance.[8] In the Septuagint, the Hebrew ha-Satan in Job and Zechariah is translated by the Greek word diabolos (slanderer), the same word in the Greek New Testament from which the English word "devil" is derived.[30] Where satan is used to refer to human enemies in the Hebrew Bible, such as Hadad the Edomite and Rezon the Syrian, the word is left untranslated but transliterated in the Greek as satan, a neologism in Greek.[30]

The idea of Satan as an opponent of God and a purely evil figure seems to have taken root in Jewish pseudepigrapha during the Second Temple Period,[


Right and the Israelites realized there is a very real hell right around when the Persians were invading and living in their land. Wow, what a coincidence because the Persians already had a devil who was at war with God and all the associated myths.


Does this sound familiar?


The doctrinal premises are (1) good will eventually prevail over evil; (2) creation was initially perfectly good, but was subsequently corrupted by evil; (3) the world will ultimately be restored to the perfection it had at the time of creation; (4) the "salvation for the individual depended on the sum of [that person's] thoughts, words and deeds, and there could be no intervention, whether compassionate or capricious, by any divine being to alter this." Thus, each human bears the responsibility for the fate of his own soul, and simultaneously shares in the responsibility for the fate of the world.[1]

The fire of hell is metaphorical of the horror of being eternally separated from God. The Case for Faith: Objection #6 | Satisfaction Through Christ

Lee Strobel continues his search for answers to eight of the most emotional objections to Christianity in his seventh interview and sixth chapter of The Case for Faith with J.P. Moreland, PH.D. Dr. Moreland received a chemistry degree from the University of Missouri, a master’s degree from Dallas Theological Seminary, and a doctorate from the University of Southern California. Upon sitting down with Dr. Moreland, Strobel confesses that he doesn’t even know where to begin. Dr. Moreland suggests they should first begin by distinguishing between liking or disliking something and judging whether something is right to do. He explains that although to some people adultery may seem pleasurable, most people agree that it is morally wrong. He asserts that oftentimes doing the right thing can be unpleasant. Dr. Moreland acknowledges that although many people’s responses to the appropriateness of hell come from feelings and emotions, “the basis of their evaluation should be whether hell is a morally just or morally right state of affairs, not whether they like or dislike the concept.” He then continues, “And it’s important to understand that if the God of Christianity is real, he hates hell and he hates people going there. The Bible is very clear: God says he takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.”

Dr. Moreland’s first point after his and Strobel’s introductory conversation is thatGod doesn’t torture people in hell. God has made us creatures with free will and if we continuously live without our creator’s purposes for us in mind, we will eventually get what we’ve asked for, which is separation from God. That is hell. He then states that God is not simply a loving being, especially if the meaning of “loving” is taken from current society’s meaning. “Yes, God is a compassionate being, but he’s also a just, moral, and pure being. So God’s decisions are not based on modern American sentimentalism. This is one of the reasons why people have never had a difficult time with the idea of hell until modern times. People today tend to care only for the softer virtues like love and tenderness, while they’ve forgotten the hard virtues of holiness, righteousness, and justice.”

Dr. Moreland continues to elaborate on the intrinsic nature of hell, which he says is relational in essence. “Actually, hell was not part of the original creation. Hell is God’s fall-back position. Hell is something God was forced to make because people chose to rebel against him and turn against what was best for them and the purpose for which they were created.” The punishment endured in hell is not that of torture but of separation from God, “bringing shame, anguish, and regret.” Although it is a just punishment, it is also “the natural consequence of a life that has been lived in a certain direction.”

 

[Skywalker]

One way or the other the number of people who call themselves Christian and identify with Jesus is diminishing. Real fast.

A lot of people turn away from God because they are disappointed with the church. That has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus. Jesus had a bad experience with religious people too. They crucified Jesus.

 

[Skywalker]

Well your own scripture seems to disagree with you.


Yes and they know alien abductions exist, Big Foot, and hundreds of different cultural entities like Lephricons and Sprites in Ireland and several from every civilization. Except there really isn't any good evidence.
Most Christians no longer even believe in hell or Satan. Again, you have no evidence, just stories that look like myths.


As we have already seen Satan was a copy of the Persian devil. Sorry, I'm sticking with academia for knowledge instead of anecdotes, heresay and myths.

During the Second Temple Period, when Jews were living in the Achaemenid Empire, Judaism was heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism, the religion of the Achaemenids.[27][8][28] Jewish conceptions of Satan were impacted by Angra Mainyu,[8][29] the Zoroastrian god of evil, darkness, and ignorance.[8] In the Septuagint, the Hebrew ha-Satan in Job and Zechariah is translated by the Greek word diabolos (slanderer), the same word in the Greek New Testament from which the English word "devil" is derived.[30] Where satan is used to refer to human enemies in the Hebrew Bible, such as Hadad the Edomite and Rezon the Syrian, the word is left untranslated but transliterated in the Greek as satan, a neologism in Greek.[30]

The idea of Satan as an opponent of God and a purely evil figure seems to have taken root in Jewish pseudepigrapha during the Second Temple Period,[


Right and the Israelites realized there is a very real hell right around when the Persians were invading and living in their land. Wow, what a coincidence because the Persians already had a devil who was at war with God and all the associated myths.


Does this sound familiar?


The doctrinal premises are (1) good will eventually prevail over evil; (2) creation was initially perfectly good, but was subsequently corrupted by evil; (3) the world will ultimately be restored to the perfection it had at the time of creation; (4) the "salvation for the individual depended on the sum of [that person's] thoughts, words and deeds, and there could be no intervention, whether compassionate or capricious, by any divine being to alter this." Thus, each human bears the responsibility for the fate of his own soul, and simultaneously shares in the responsibility for the fate of the world.[1]

In Job 2:3 God said that Satan incited him against Job for no reason. Satan was evil in the book of Job.

 

[joelr]

The Caananites were involved in demonic practices. Why did God condone such terrible violence in the Old Testament? | GotQuestions.org

See, did I not say you would say that.
• Joshua Bowen Phd near eastern studies is an expert on the cultures surrounding the Israelites during that period. He explains the Canaanites were not involved in child sacrifice of any unusual practices. They were farmers and had their own religion, respected their elders, buiried their dead prayed for their souls and so on.
The biblical narrative about them is not supported by evidence.
He says this is the consensus opinion in the field.
I cannot find the exact time:

 

[joelr]

Some alleged similarities between Jesus and pagan deities could be Satan and demons copying God. 1st Corinthians 1;20 says

Cool, if 2nd century apologetics work for you then have fun with that. All you are doing now is stating your beliefs about myths. Don't care.

 

[Skywalker]

See, did I not say you would say that.
• Joshua Bowen Phd near eastern studies is an expert on the cultures surrounding the Israelites during that period. He explains the Canaanites were not involved in child sacrifice of any unusual practices. They were farmers and had their own religion, respected their elders, buiried their dead prayed for their souls and so on.
The biblical narrative about them is not supported by evidence.
He says this is the consensus opinion in the field.
I cannot find the exact time:

If their religion was peaceful, what about Moloch? Anyone can say anything to discredit the Bible, even a professor or a scholar.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

A lot of people turn away from God because they are disappointed with the church. That has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus. Jesus had a bad experience with religious people too. They crucified Jesus.

True, but one way or the other the number of people who call themselves Christian and identify with Jesus is diminishing. Real fast. Doesn't that worry you that in 50 years statistically only about 10% of Americans will be calling themselves Christians?