Why Didn't God Leave Huge Quantities of Secular Evidence For Jesus?

[Skywalker]

Cool, if 2nd century apologetics work for you then have fun with that. All you are doing now is stating your beliefs about myths. Don't care.

The devil is a master deceiver. Just like Jesus warned people about the unbibical teachings of certain churches centuries before they existed, I believe Satan made false religions resemble the Bible to try to discredit it.

 

[joelr]

In Job 2:3 God said that Satan incited him against Job for no reason. Satan was evil in the book of Job.

Not really, he was one of the sons of god.
Satan didn't become full evil until they encountered the model the Persians were using.

describes the "sons of God" (bənê hāʼĕlōhîm) presenting themselves before Yahweh.[21] Yahweh asks one of them, "the satan", where he has been, to which he replies that he has been roaming around the earth.[21] Yahweh asks, "Have you considered My servant Job?"[21] The satan replies by urging Yahweh to let him torture Job, promising that Job will abandon his faith at the first tribulation.[22] Yahweh consents; the satan destroys Job's servants and flocks, yet Job refuses to condemn Yahweh.[22] The first scene repeats itself, with the satan presenting himself to Yahweh alongside the other "sons of God".[23

 

[Skywalker]

True, but one way or the other the number of people who call themselves Christian and identify with Jesus is diminishing. Real fast. Doesn't that worry you that in 50 years statistically only about 10% of Americans will be calling themselves Christians?

In the end, all that matters is being on God's side, regardless if other people choose to follow God or not.

 

[Skywalker]

Not really, he was one of the sons of god.
Satan didn't become full evil until they encountered the model the Persians were using.

describes the "sons of God" (bənê hāʼĕlōhîm) presenting themselves before Yahweh.[21] Yahweh asks one of them, "the satan", where he has been, to which he replies that he has been roaming around the earth.[21] Yahweh asks, "Have you considered My servant Job?"[21] The satan replies by urging Yahweh to let him torture Job, promising that Job will abandon his faith at the first tribulation.[22] Yahweh consents; the satan destroys Job's servants and flocks, yet Job refuses to condemn Yahweh.[22] The first scene repeats itself, with the satan presenting himself to Yahweh alongside the other "sons of God".[23

The Sons of God refer to angels and Satan is a fallen angel.

 

[Skywalker]

Not really, he was one of the sons of god.
Satan didn't become full evil until they encountered the model the Persians were using.

describes the "sons of God" (bənê hāʼĕlōhîm) presenting themselves before Yahweh.[21] Yahweh asks one of them, "the satan", where he has been, to which he replies that he has been roaming around the earth.[21] Yahweh asks, "Have you considered My servant Job?"[21] The satan replies by urging Yahweh to let him torture Job, promising that Job will abandon his faith at the first tribulation.[22] Yahweh consents; the satan destroys Job's servants and flocks, yet Job refuses to condemn Yahweh.[22] The first scene repeats itself, with the satan presenting himself to Yahweh alongside the other "sons of God".[23

The Bible says that Satan appeared with the holy angels. It doesn't say that he was one of them.

 

[Skywalker]

Not really, he was one of the sons of god.
Satan didn't become full evil until they encountered the model the Persians were using.

describes the "sons of God" (bənê hāʼĕlōhîm) presenting themselves before Yahweh.[21] Yahweh asks one of them, "the satan", where he has been, to which he replies that he has been roaming around the earth.[21] Yahweh asks, "Have you considered My servant Job?"[21] The satan replies by urging Yahweh to let him torture Job, promising that Job will abandon his faith at the first tribulation.[22] Yahweh consents; the satan destroys Job's servants and flocks, yet Job refuses to condemn Yahweh.[22] The first scene repeats itself, with the satan presenting himself to Yahweh alongside the other "sons of God".[23

The Persians influenced Jewish mythology on Satan that coincidentally lined up with the later teachings of Jesus, but they didn't influence the teachings of Jesus.

 

[joelr]

The devil is a master deceiver. Just like Jesus warned people about the unbibical teachings of certain churches centuries before they existed, I believe Satan made false religions resemble the Bible to try to discredit it.

Great. So what is actually true is clearly not important to you because that is not supported by evidence and we are certain the modern version of Satan was created after exposure to the Persian version.

Again all you are now doing is stating beliefs without evidence. Same as Roswell conspiracy theorists, 911 truthers, flat Earthers, science deniers, Scientology and whatever else people believe for emotional reasons.
The devil is a character in mythology and is as real as MtDoom and a magic ring.

 

[joelr]

The Bible says that Satan appeared with the holy angels. It doesn't say that he was one of them.

Uh, yes, it says Yahweh asks one of the "sons of God" who is Satan.

The sons of god appear before Yahweh and Yahweh asks one of them......"Where have you been..."

 

[joelr]

The Persians influenced Jewish mythology on Satan that coincidentally lined up with the later teachings of Jesus, but they didn't influence the teachings of Jesus.

What is fact is that the Persian religion had a prediction of a world savior who would be virgin born and come to save humanity. The oldest version of this belief is from 6BC. That is a messianic prophecy.
It is extremely likely this influences Judaism.

Other Persian doctrines were:


"The doctrinal premises are (1) good will eventually prevail over evil; (2) creation was initially perfectly good, but was subsequently corrupted by evil; (3) the world will ultimately be restored to the perfection it had at the time of creation; (4) the "salvation for the individual depended on the sum of [that person's] thoughts, words and deeds, and there could be no intervention, whether compassionate or capricious, by any divine being to alter this." Thus, each human bears the responsibility for the fate of his own soul, and simultaneously shares in the responsibility for the fate of the world.[1]"

 

[joelr]

The Bible says that Satan appeared with the holy angels. It doesn't say that he was one of them.

It is very clear that Satan is part of this angelic heirarchy. These writers are not morons. It says the "sons of God" appeared and Yahweh asked ONE OF THEM. The one he asked was Satan.
This is plain as day.
Satan was later changed around to the the opposite of god because they encountered better myths. As far as Psalms is concerned Satan was one of the sons of god angels.


"The idea of Satan as an opponent of God and a purely evil figure seems to have taken root in Jewish pseudepigrapha during the Second Temple Period,"

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

In the end, all that matters is being on God's side, regardless if other people choose to follow God or not.

So every last Christian turning their back on Jesus wouldn't bother you in the least? Wouldn't that tell you Jesus couldn't care less whether people believe in him or not?

 

[Skywalker]

It is very clear that Satan is part of this angelic heirarchy. These writers are not morons. It says the "sons of God" appeared and Yahweh asked ONE OF THEM. The one he asked was Satan.
This is plain as day.
Satan was later changed around to the the opposite of god because they encountered better myths. As far as Psalms is concerned Satan was one of the sons of god angels.


"The idea of Satan as an opponent of God and a purely evil figure seems to have taken root in Jewish pseudepigrapha during the Second Temple Period,"

The Psalms mention the devil. Psalm 91:3

Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.

 

[Skywalker]

So every last Christian turning their back on Jesus wouldn't bother you in the least? Wouldn't that tell you Jesus couldn't care less whether people believe in him or not?

It would show that human beings have a sinful nature and that God has nothing to do with the mistakes that we make.

 

[Skywalker]

Great. So what is actually true is clearly not important to you because that is not supported by evidence and we are certain the modern version of Satan was created after exposure to the Persian version.

Again all you are now doing is stating beliefs without evidence. Same as Roswell conspiracy theorists, 911 truthers, flat Earthers, science deniers, Scientology and whatever else people believe for emotional reasons.
The devil is a character in mythology and is as real as MtDoom and a magic ring.

Even without the Bible people know that the devil is real. If there is good, there is evil. Even if Satan is not clearly described as the devil in the Old Testament, people know that evil exists. People who read the Bible over and over again will notice things that they didn't notice earlier.

 

[Skywalker]

Uh, yes, it says Yahweh asks one of the "sons of God" who is Satan.

The sons of god appear before Yahweh and Yahweh asks one of them......"Where have you been..."

The Bible says that Satan came among the sons of God. It doesn't say that Satan is a son of God.

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.

Job 1:7 says "“Where have you come from?” said the LORD to Satan. “From roaming through the earth,” he replied, “and walking back and forth in it." That verse doesn't describe Satan as one of the sons of God.

 

[Skywalker]

What is fact is that the Persian religion had a prediction of a world savior who would be virgin born and come to save humanity. The oldest version of this belief is from 6BC. That is a messianic prophecy.
It is extremely likely this influences Judaism.

Other Persian doctrines were:


"The doctrinal premises are (1) good will eventually prevail over evil; (2) creation was initially perfectly good, but was subsequently corrupted by evil; (3) the world will ultimately be restored to the perfection it had at the time of creation; (4) the "salvation for the individual depended on the sum of [that person's] thoughts, words and deeds, and there could be no intervention, whether compassionate or capricious, by any divine being to alter this." Thus, each human bears the responsibility for the fate of his own soul, and simultaneously shares in the responsibility for the fate of the world.[1]"

Truth and lies are always mixed. Regarding there being a world savior, everyone knows that only God saves. If I said that a doctor saved my life, that would be giving him credit that only God deserves. Everyone knows that if God came in human form, he would be born of a virgin. Good prevailing over evil makes sense because evil exists because of people's free will, and it isn't how things are meant to be. Since God doesn't create sinners, the world was initially good and we corrupted it. You don't need Zoroastrianism to know that God will eventually restore all things to how they are supposed to be.

That Zoroastrianism mentions salvation shows that we need a Savior, but it also teaches that we can save ourselves. That is contrary to what the Bible teaches. If someone commits a crime, no good deed can erase that fact. If that was the case, there would be no prisons. Zoroastrianism mentioning salvation shows that we all know that we are separated from God by sin and need a redeemer to reconcile use to God.

 

[whosetosay...]

It's like you are putting extra effort into being incorrect? Who said Baal was a savior? The real biblical historian in the article below explains Baal is not a personal savior god, just a resurrecting god?
Your article is debunking something that no one even claimed?

What's even better is the book that your source (he's a Library Sciences major) used to write his article is a book explaining that Yahweh is just one of the many mythical gods created around that time period!

He sources:
The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel's Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts

As the Bible tells us, ancient Israel's neighbors worshipped a wide variety of Gods. It is now widely accepted that the Israelites’ God, Yahweh, must have originated as among these many, before assuming the role of the one true God of monotheism.

See, a myth.


What Carrier says on Baal:


Baal (or “Ba’al”) was one of the most ancient of resurrected gods. His death is probably the same mourned under the name Hadad-Rimmon in Zechariah 12:11. But whether or no, in pre-Christian texts Baal’s corpse is found by Anat, so in his myth the god is definitely dead; one text even outright says “and the gods will know that you are dead,” and multiple gods actually declare him dead; he is then buried, and funeral rites performed (Mettinger, Riddle, pp. 60-62). There are then clear references to Baal’s resurrection. In fact, his returning to life and then living forever are used as analogies in pre-Christian immortality spells (Mettinger, Riddle, pp. 69-71). Though this god was then not yet a personal savior but a metaphor for communal agricultural salvation, that was prior to Hellenization. He was transformed into one of the many personal savior gods of the region we hear of at the dawn of Christianity (Jupiter Dolichenus), but are allowed to know nothing about, owing to the Medieval Christian destruction of pagan evidence. For example, Hippolytus devoted two entire chapters of his Refutation of All Heresies to the mystery cults and their savior deities. Curiously, those are the only two books wholly destroyed. Go figure. What were the Medievals trying to hide? What did they not want us to read? I’ll let your imagination ponder.

Ba'al means Lord and refers to many gods. It is basically the worship of nature and therefore refers to many gods. There is one god in egypt but nothing has been proved that it ever meant one god. It was the pagan gods that the Israelite's often left their faith and was unfaithful to god by worshiping one of more of these gods. Basically the forces of nature.
Though Lord references the Hebrew God is always spelt in capital letters even to this day in the OT so is spelt LORD even now. you will see the way the Hebrew scholars translated the bible from Hebrew ensuring no changes made and the LORD as the Hebrew God himself being denoted in capitals.

 

[Skywalker]

Well your own scripture seems to disagree with you.


Yes and they know alien abductions exist, Big Foot, and hundreds of different cultural entities like Lephricons and Sprites in Ireland and several from every civilization. Except there really isn't any good evidence.
Most Christians no longer even believe in hell or Satan. Again, you have no evidence, just stories that look like myths.


As we have already seen Satan was a copy of the Persian devil. Sorry, I'm sticking with academia for knowledge instead of anecdotes, heresay and myths.

During the Second Temple Period, when Jews were living in the Achaemenid Empire, Judaism was heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism, the religion of the Achaemenids.[27][8][28] Jewish conceptions of Satan were impacted by Angra Mainyu,[8][29] the Zoroastrian god of evil, darkness, and ignorance.[8] In the Septuagint, the Hebrew ha-Satan in Job and Zechariah is translated by the Greek word diabolos (slanderer), the same word in the Greek New Testament from which the English word "devil" is derived.[30] Where satan is used to refer to human enemies in the Hebrew Bible, such as Hadad the Edomite and Rezon the Syrian, the word is left untranslated but transliterated in the Greek as satan, a neologism in Greek.[30]

The idea of Satan as an opponent of God and a purely evil figure seems to have taken root in Jewish pseudepigrapha during the Second Temple Period,[


Right and the Israelites realized there is a very real hell right around when the Persians were invading and living in their land. Wow, what a coincidence because the Persians already had a devil who was at war with God and all the associated myths.


Does this sound familiar?


The doctrinal premises are (1) good will eventually prevail over evil; (2) creation was initially perfectly good, but was subsequently corrupted by evil; (3) the world will ultimately be restored to the perfection it had at the time of creation; (4) the "salvation for the individual depended on the sum of [that person's] thoughts, words and deeds, and there could be no intervention, whether compassionate or capricious, by any divine being to alter this." Thus, each human bears the responsibility for the fate of his own soul, and simultaneously shares in the responsibility for the fate of the world.[1]

Judaism in the Old Testament was a relationship with God not a religion. People had a relationship with God before the church building or youth groups or denominations or rabbinic Judaism.

 

[Yahcubs777]

Why didn't God leave behind a huge trove of secular evidence for Jesus having lived on earth, dying on the cross and all the supernatural events accompanying the crucifixion like dead bodies rising from the grave and walking around Jerusalem? If God really wanted us all to believe Jesus is His son who was born into this world for the sole purpose of dying for our sins--and that it was absolutely vital for us to believe Jesus died for our sins in order for God to keep from having to send us to hell for not believing in him, then wouldn't He have done everything in His power to leave behind secular evidence so overwhelming that only a fool or a madman would deny Jesus was divine? Wouldn't God have made sure that every historian in Jesus' time had heard of or witnessed Jesus' death and resurrection and ascension and then written about it? Wouldn't God have made sure that these accounts were perfectly preserved like Julius Caesar's Gallic Wars? Wouldn't God have made absolutely certain that the original gospel accounts from the apostles had been perfectly preserved for future generations so that we had first-hand testimony of what Jesus said and did?

Why instead did God allow whatever might have been written about Jesus by a known historian to be completely lost or destroyed? Why did 50-100 years have to transpire before someone finally decided to write the gospels, and these weren't even from eyewitnesses--they were Greek Christian scholars writing in perfect Koine Greek? And if they had no eyewitnesses or written testimonies to get their information from then how did they know the incredible minute details that appear in their accounts? How, for example did Luke know that an angel appeared to Jesus to comfort him in the Garden of Gethsemane when there were no witnesses to this miraculous event? Further, no manuscripts of any of the New Testament writings surface until the middle/late part of the 2nd Century. Why is that if God was divinely guiding the transmission of information about Jesus?

I can' seem to find answers for these questions that constantly pop into my mind. I lost my Christian faith because of the complete lack of evidence for Jesus outside the Bible.

The reason is because the mysteries of the kingdom is only for the children of the kingdom; it is not for tares. And there are the enemies of the Mankind Race that are both Celestial beings, and terrestrial beings; meaning an unholy alliance of tare cherubim and tare seraphim,and tare angels with tare human beings (witches and wizards - the occult). If everything about the kingdom was spelt out plainly, these enemies of the Mankind Race, would have succeeded in stealing the message, leading many astray, and making a situation where the children of the kingdom would not be able to know who was sent by GOD. An example where this has happened is in the tower of babel, where they wrote about a certain nimrod cush who they claimed was hunter for the Lord, but he was not for GOD, he was a wizard who had the mark of the beast. And he got hold of teachings from Father Adam, and Enoch (who lived forever), and tried to build a tower that will reach heaven. And they wrote that this resulted in languages being what landed them in confusion. But that was written codedly. Like those in the chruches where they claim to speak in tongues, that is what babies do; they babble, revealing their mindset, and lack of knowledge of GOD. Thus, GOD even left things unsaid, and revealed that Elijah must come and restore all things, because HE knew what the false preachers would do.

So to cut it short; it was not given to them to know the mysteries of the kingdom. And it has never been about believing in Jesus His Pre-Eminence, that is the message of the false preachers - it has always been about believing in the message of everlasting life; which is living without dying at all as Enoch and Elijah did. That you can immortalise your body in life without detatching from your physical body (dying) to go to the ghost world called hell and await resurrection. And see how the body was called a temple? Now you can see why Nimrod who married his mother, tried to build a tower that will reach heaven. For Enoch transfigured his physical body from mortal, to immortal, from 6ft, to 60ft, and entered into heaven alive. That is what Nimrod and his cohorts were trying to achieve but they didn't understand how. So they literalised it, as false preachers have also literalised the bible.

 

[Skywalker]

What we have are texts from Byzantine Greek Bible. Matthew at least was written in Hebrew and translated to Greek. It's not correct to think they were originally written in perfect Koine Greek.


But how can you trust Gallic Wars more than Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? In fact part of Gallic wars was written by someone other than Julius Caesar. He only wrote the first part. That doesn't mean it's not accurate; but I'm just saying. And then you have to trust that Caesar doesn't make somethings up. Perhaps embellish his own accomplishments or justify his actions.


That wouldn't really solve the problem because people would just say it was a forgery by later Christians. Like they say about Josephus' history that mentions Jesus. So whether Josephus' mention of Jesus was a later forgery or not is really unknown.


The Bible is there to get you to seek God for yourself. Once you know God then you wouldn't doubt the book anymore. So I think the point of not giving so much evidence is to encourage people to have communion with God themselves. If God told everyone everything they may just take it all for granted.

So your question boils down to why God wants us to seek him by faith? The world is a fallen place. The human race is a fallen race. We have to fight unseen forces in order to know God and do good. The point is that we can't do this by ourselves because we aren't more intelligent than the enemy and any truth that God does reveal the enemy will attempt to disparage it and cast doubt on it. So faith is the only way to overcome the world. (1 John 5:4) And God wants to answer faith too. It's not like God desires blind faith. If we have faith then God will answer it and our faith will grow so we can keep believing for even greater things.

The bible is there to make you wise unto salvation, which is 2 Timothy 3:16. its not going to tell you everything about everything it couldn't. its a limited document just like anything else. all writing is selective. you got to leave out a lot more than what you can say.