David Davidovich
Well-Known Member
So, did the gentile nations during the Bronze Age also not have any sanitation practices like Dr. Semmelweis' peers in the 1950s?
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Why Didn't the Universe Always Exist?
- Thread starter David Davidovich
- Start date
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
I see. Well, I wonder what happened when it started to rain.
View attachment 72716
Well, I guess it's good to have a variety of conflicting answers so that valid questions can always be covered.
Another way of looking at is, what would human existance be like now if Dinasours, Sabertooth tigers, giant bears, giant egales, etc. existed from the last 5,000 years? You may have a different environment for humans to have to adapt to.
Also, be aware that according to Torath Mosheh sources the (מבול) wasn't just rain and flooding water.
Is it true that the story of the flood was originally a Sumerian tale that was later adapted for the Old Testament?
אהב עבר's answer: The problem you run into is that a major flood that affected all of humanity is a story that exists in numerous ancient cultures around the world. Thus, the idea is that it makes sense that the Torah would record something that was already known to humanity prior to the Tora...
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
No. It states that at a certain point they were put to sleep. It also doesn't state how long. It states it in connection to particular events happening external to the boat that could be inside.So, in that Midrash, I supposed that Genesis 6:19-21 doesn't mean anything:
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
So, in that Midrash, I supposed that Genesis 6:19-21 doesn't mean anything:
Please be aware. Not all Midrash is about what actually happened historically. Some are just the sermons of the day.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
None of these were exclusive to israelites or that part of the world.
Nore were they the first to come up with those.
Take ancient china for example. They already had flushable toilets by 500 BC.
Audie
Veteran Member
WfI see. Well, I wonder what happened when it started to rain.
View attachment 72716
Well, I guess it's good to have a variety of conflicting answers so that valid questions can always be covered.
Audie
Veteran Member
Oh, it has a lot of meaning,So, in that Midrash, I supposed that Genesis 6:19-21 doesn't mean anything:
Nothing about actual events though.
Like a historical novel that way.
David Davidovich
Well-Known Member
Well, I'm just wondering: why did they even exist in the first place? And what's that got to do with having a variety of conflicting answers?
David Davidovich
Well-Known Member
So, in other words, you're saying that one Midrash says that some of the more violent and predatory animals stayed outside the ark and attacked any people who tried to come near the ark, and that there was another Midrash that said that the animals were put to sleep at some point inside of the ark... Well, I don't really see the use for the various midrashim because we still have lions and alligators and all other sorts of violent and predatory animals, therefore, before the food that was collected at Genesis 6:19-21 ran out, and before the predators became too hungry, all the animals HAD to have been put to sleep during the ark-ride. Therefore, case closed. No conflict... It all makes perfect sense to me now.
David Davidovich
Well-Known Member
And even farther back than that and prior to the various dates that Deuteronomy is said to have been written. See the videos that I posted on page 14.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
There are a number of reasons I can think of. Especially since modern ecology would not exist to benefit modern ecology w/o everything that once existed. Also, the Tanakh is clear the ways of Hashem are not like the ways of man. Also, conflicting answer are clear when not every answer is claiming to be historical. Some Midrashim are simply the sermons of the day, and are not meant be literal representations of history. Also, since there are some elements of the Torah that don't require one answer and are open for speculation. Halakha though requires an exact answer since it involves how Jews do mitzvoth.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
No, same Midrash. It states that some of the meat eating type animals were outside, while other species were inside. I.e. some of the more extreme predators were outside.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
Well, I don't really see the use for the various midrashim because we still have lions and alligators and all other sorts of violent and predatory animals, therefore, before the food that was collected at Genesis 6:19-21 ran out, and before the predators became too hungry, all the animals HAD to have been put to sleep during the ark-ride. Therefore, case closed. No conflict... It all makes perfect sense to me now.
The purpose of the Midrash isn't to cover just this topic. You asked why there are conflicting midrashim. There are midrashim that are addressing historical claims that had been passed on and some are simply dealing with sermons of the day. In order to know which is which one has to actually read them in Hebrew/Aramaic and then study historical, geology, etc. or whatever topic that is being discussed.
The point was not elimate all predators. Besides, modern day lions and alligators are nothing compared to some of the predators that once existed on this planet.
David Davidovich
Well-Known Member
So, TMJs don't really take the Adam and Eve story as real or literal? Yes, no? Because ginormous dangerous predators being created, doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense in a world where a very weak but intelligence creature, which is supposed to have been made in Hashem's image has been brought into this existence.
Well, one thing that I can say is that the above answer can come in handy every time something about what Hashem has done doesn't make any sense.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
So, TMJs don't really take the Adam and Eve story as real or literal? Yes, no? Because ginormous dangerous predators being created, doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense in a world where a very weak but intelligence creature, which is supposed to have been made in Hashem's image has been brought into this existence.
Well, one thing that I can say is that the above answer can come in handy every time something about what Hashem has done doesn't make any sense.
Remember we discussed this already.
1. Real story, BUT not from the English translation point of view.
2. i.e. if you want to know what the story says and what it is about, you will have to read it in Hebrew, or learn directly from somone who knows the Hebrew and can show you thousands of years of commentary about it.
3. Hebrew Torah text of the story is Hashem's commentary of it. i.e. Hashem told Mosheh what to write and how to write it. Hashem included it in the Torah for Torath Mosheh Jews to analyze and learn from. The account, being Hashem's commentary, has elements of allegory because Hashem has a more clear understanding of what took place on all levels and why.
In terms of giant predators existing. I can see lots of reasons for them to have existed. That is also me being a human, and not having the mind of Hashem that created an entire universe and admits that His [Hashem's] way of things is not the human way. It is beyond it.
So, if I were create a world with giant predators, this is why I would personally put them here.
1. I would first populate the world with masses number of species. Their life cycles through the food chain over generations would provide a natural method of giving the new planet the soil content that I want to it to have thousands, and millions of years in the future.
2. If I existed outside of time, and was in the past-present-future of my creations, then I would know what method works for all generations in a way that my creations would never know.
3. I would also create a system that cleans up after itself. I.e. I would not want there to be waste that exists in a way where the waste doesn't breakdown within a quick period of time.
4. If I wanted future genrations of my creations to be able to benefit from what exists on thier planet megafona is a great way to do it. The existance of Megafauna also helps regulate the environment that I want to exist.
David Davidovich
Well-Known Member
@YoursTrue, I was curious about something. What does the Watchtower say about giant animals and insects once existing?
David Davidovich
Well-Known Member
I've come to cherish the sound of crickets made after asking religious fundamentalists questions
.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
I've come to cherish the sound of crickets made after asking religious fundamentalists questions
Are you kidding? That was nowhere near long enough. This is the sound of crickets.........3 hours of them.
YellowFeather
Member
Nothing has always existed, everything is a creation. The first one to start creation is God. Creation is first invisible as God is, it has to first be thought about before it is created to touch, then it is created to see and touch. When we see our home we do not see the ones that created it, but we see the work. We see the world, but we do not see the Creator. We know that creation comes from knowledge and power.
Pogo
Well-Known Member
I think I agree with you, god has to be thought about to be created.