Why Didn't the Universe Always Exist?

[David Davidovich]

Because...

I know of 32 hypothesis of how the universe possibly began. Each one is either based on observable phenomena and extrapolated back to pre BB or on mathematics using the same criteria.

No god needed.

Interesting answer. However, according to Jewish and Chrisitan beliefs (although, I'm not really sure about other theist religions), the universe only came into existence only 3.8 billion years ago. And with some fundamental Christians saying only 6 thousand years ago. However, with their belief in an eternal God who has always existed, then the universe should have always existed too.

 

[rational experiences]

A human says when burning as evil didn't exist.

You can't speak about burning in any thesis either.

Highest and greatest once a body type as mass existed first that hadn't changed.

Men taught it's who I was. An eternal being as a self man giant God type. I was in the eternal. I created God. O the method.

I wanted to observe a secondary voiced spirit not my Eternal being. Language.

As communication emerged out of the surrounding Eternal in which I existed.

O God by type the eternal language being. Trapped held for my observation.

Surrounding mass thinned. O and mass burst. I know I caused it.

I caused created change. Heat was introduced.

So you ask the man human how did you know you caused it?

As God left the Eternal body falling into itself God became smaller.

So O large God bodies fell into a sun O.

Planets fell into its central position. Each gods body o.

Why when a cooling sun re burst it attacked all gods o leaving space holes as proof core gone now scattered.

I arrived as removal a small man being as Eternal type as large eternal being had sent God away.

I only entered my creation after large energy mass was gone. So gases could take its spatial place.

I entered via the heavens having filled in the lost core values elsewhere. God.

I virtually with nature took gods place in creation for having destroyed a portion of the eternal body...said our human father. Fully aware what happened.

It's why I'm the least type of changed Eternal as biology. I own no mass power.

So my son decided to build machines to remove it all going space would close as a slit by removing held mass.

The exact reason he theories universal mass. Wanting to return to just being eternal only. It didn't happen.

He ended life by being a water eternal hell's voiced image.

Eternal hell a totally different subject. Is where cloud angels are

 

[David Davidovich]

We don't know whether the universe always existed. There are some compelling hypothesis but there is no theory (though some hypothesis are misnamed theories).
If time, space and matter were created at the same time, there is no "before" the Big Bang. And "always" is at every time. The universe always existed in that case.
If there was time before the Big Bang, the energy of the universe could still have existed, either as an eternal singularity or in a previous universe. Our known universe would then be a different state or instantiation.
The eternal singularity has seemingly the same problem as your question. It arises from the unintuitive nature of infinities. Why is there a zero if there are infinite negative numbers?

Interesting answer. Also, see my religious reply in post #41.

 

[David Davidovich]

The universe is eternal, but cyclical. BB it is born. It lives. Big Crunch it dies and BB born anew.

I noticed that your religion is Pre-Abrahamic Noahide. Does that have any relationship or anything in common with Abrahamic religions and their belief in a creator God and the book of Genesis creation account? Just curious.

 

[David Davidovich]

In one form or another, all that is the universe has always been. This present form, too, will pass away. But the stuff that makes it will always be around. Maybe for another universe later. A God or creator isn't necessary for the process but I don't exclude the possibility either.

Interesting answer. And a bit off topic, but where would that God have come from?

 

[Subduction Zone]

well in my religion they have been sending avatars of angels forever all to suffer once, and then go in eternal ever after of perfect bliss and salvation of descent and ascent repetitively .

And in Pastafarianism there are beer volcanoes in heaven. Which one sounds better to you? Why does anyone need to suffer?

 

[The Hammer]

That's not true. Because as far as we're concerned, it's only been in existence for 13.8 billion years.

Yup. And we are much younger. Meaning to us it's always existed.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That's not true. Because as far as we're concerned, it's only been in existence for 13.8 billion years.

If time began with the universe then the universe would have always have existed. In that case the phrase "before the Big Bang" would be as meaningless as north of the North Pole.

 

[David Davidovich]

This out of time description is pretty vague. It really dosent mean anything, as nothing is out of time.

I'd prefer out of a time frame maybe. That would make more sense.

I don't know what to say, Twilight Hue. But that is how theists explain God. However, I was just trying to express what I think I've heard theists explain. Also, I'm glad that you asked that question because I just looked up some answers on the net, and even though I don't want to spend hours looking through those answer, I would like to quote from two of the answers and quote the links from several of the articles.

Does the Bible say that god exists outside of space, time and matter?

No, it does not say any such thing. The idea of a God that is outside of space and time, and that isn’t made of anything, is indistinguishable from an imaginary God that doesn’t exist anywhere at any time, and that is made of nothing.

Isaiah 40:22 New International Version (NIV)

22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

The above indicates that God has a location, and therefore is inside space. It also indicates that God is in time, too. . .

click here: Does the Bible say that god exists outside of space, time and matter? - Quora

And from this CARM article:

Is God outside of time?

by Matt Slick | Mar 23, 2019 | God, Questions​

Is God outside of time? That would depend on what the phrase “outside of time” meant. It is an unclear statement, to begin with.

As I have grown in my understanding of the Bible, apologetics, logic, and argumentation I have concluded that to say “God is outside of time,” is problematic. . .

click here: Is God outside of time? What does that phrase mean? | carm.org

click here: Is God Outside of Time? Not according to the Bible. | KGOV.com

click here: What is God’s relationship to time? | GotQuestions.org

Also, if you're interested, you could start your own thread addressed to Torath Mosheh Jews Only because @Ehav4Ever has given some informative answers in regard to the what the Jews' belief is with this.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Interesting answer. However, according to Jewish and Chrisitan beliefs (although, I'm not really sure about other theist religions), the universe only came into existence only 3.8 billion years ago. And with some fundamental Christians saying only 6 thousand years ago. However, with their belief in an eternal God who has always existed, then the universe should have always existed too.

Are you sure about that? Instead of 3.8 did you mean 13.8? When making such claims it is best to find sources that support your claims. Not all Abrahamic religions read Genesis literally. Some of them do realize that it is myth. In fact worldwide most Christians seem to accept the 13.8 billion year age of the universe and evolution as well. But yes, some fundamentalist sects, far too many of them in America, go by a 6,000 year date. We have trees older than that.

 

[David Davidovich]

Scripture is not conclusive, depending upon whose scripture you use, about whether the universe didn't always exist; so your question could be moot.

Well, if you say so. Also, see my reply to Twilight Hue in my post #49.

As for God: God is outside time and therefore could not have always existed, since 'Always' is a time word. Instead time exists inside of God, God being transcendent.

Sorry, but you lost me on that one.

 

[David Davidovich]

Time and space are perceived characteristics of the universe we temporarily inhabit; beyond it there may be no before, no after, and no always. No point in time from which it all began.

But I'm just going by what theists say because I've heard so many theists say this/use this as an argument for God.

Indeed, even in our current paradigm, there is no fixed point in time, no universal Now.

Universal to whom?

 

[David Davidovich]

I think you have a great point but an error also. Yes, God is outside of time and always existed but the universe didn't. It had a beginning time by the simple logic that if it is expanding, reverse the time backwards and you find a beginning point.

I see. However, if God is outside of time and always existed, then how could he have waited until a point in time in existence to decide to create the universe? Why did he wait? Because he would have had to have waited until the 'time' was right, or else the universe would have always existed alongside with God.

 

[David Davidovich]

Abrahamic discussion of this subject matter seems to tend to revolve around variations of "god is the necessary uncreated creator who exists outside of both existence and time"

I agree

Myself, I find that notion remarkably pointless. Nothing more than an exercise at intentional obfuscation aiming to appease certain anxieties and the aesthetical demands that come with them.

I never quite heard it put like that before. But that does make sense.

In a nutshell: there are people who want very badly to believe that existence is a deliberate project by a conscious entity. It is not a matter of facts of reality, but of emotional need instead.

Yes, I do believe that.

I don't know that it even makes any sense to speak of "creation of existence". The very idea is more than a bit self-contradictory.

Hmmm. That's a deep one. It would be interesting if a discussion would be started on that.

 

[David Davidovich]

There are two possible defined universes. Our particular universe is within a greater universe that is our physical existence possible containing millions or more universes often called a multiverse.

By the definition of potentially infinite, both our particular universe if cyclic and the multiverse are potentially infinite.

I didn't know that the Baha'i Faith believed in the multiverse. Although, I really don't know too much about the Baha'i Faith. However, I would think that the multiverse would be something that people of faith wouldn't believe in because I would think that would require different versions of God.

 

[David Davidovich]

How do you know it didn't?

I'm just going by what theists say.

 

[David Davidovich]

Why didn't the planet Earth always exist?
Since the forces that created the Earth are outside of the Earth, how could the forces that created the Earth use a point in time to start the Earth? Earth days did not exist prior to the creation of the Earth.

But that's different because the earth is only a very tiny part of the universe. However, according to many theists, the universe was only started (by God) 3.8 billion years ago. And as I said in post #53:

if God is outside of time and always existed, then how could he have waited until a point in time in existence to decide to create the universe? Why did he wait? Because he would have had to have waited until the 'time' was right, or else the universe would have always existed alongside with God.

 

[Sedim Haba]

I noticed that your religion is Pre-Abrahamic Noahide. Does that have any relationship or anything in common with Abrahamic religions and their belief in a creator God and the book of Genesis creation account? Just curious.

I once was Pan-Abrahamic. Decided that all those paths have failed. Now Pre-Abrahamic,
as just the label Noachide by itself implies being under one particular religion's thumb.

The Cyclical Universe is not in opposition to the creation story, while there was a Beginning and will be an End, that's just this cycle.

There is a tradition that this is the seventh universe created, that being the true meaning of seven days.

 

[David Davidovich]

I find it absurd to entertain the idea that what I see around me came from a compressed "something" that was the size of, or smaller than, a marble!

That is why I believe in a creator God. It's a lot more sensible than the exploding marble resulted in planets the size of Jupiter and sun's that are much larger. The sheer scale of the big bang, the ratio of compression to expansion, is so massive it's ridiculous without a creator.

I do not think we really consider the common sense approach enough here. I'd suggest buy some marbles and start to size things up.

That's odd that you find that so absurd because there are so many things that do come from compressed 'somethings' such as organic biological life forms such as humans and animals and trees and plants. Therefore, I'm not quite sure why that concept is so absurd to you.

 

[David Davidovich]

If God is beyond time, then everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen are all concurrent. But that doesn't mean that a beginning doesn't exist.

So, yes, the universe always existed. And will always exist. You have always existed, I have always existed, and we always will, according to the premise. Our beginning, middle, and end, have always existed as well.

Given this, you have asked "how could God have used a point in time to start creation?"

Because one of the properties of "creation" is that it has a "beginning". "Beginning" is just a label. It's almost like a name.

"Creation" is just another character in the story that is being authored. Just like any character in any story, the author can construct them however they like. The timeline within the story doesn't match the timeline outside the story. The author can be beyond time, and one of the elements of the story can be temporal.

So it's both. Creation has a beginning, and it has always existed.

On that note, I'll call it quits for tonight and will start with this reply the next time I come back to the forum.