Why Didn't the Universe Always Exist?

[Ben Dhyan]

of course, I would look to the sky in east and to the south, as I am Earth-bound, just as about everyone else, except those few people who get to become astronauts on their missions.

Those who do get to travel to space, the Cartesian direction don’t apply.

The point is that the concept south means a direction, a direction that is not limited by the existence of a physical south pole. Any and all directions extend to infinity.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

No, you cannot even ask a proper question. You were the one that ran away from an actual question.

Sure I can, what or who created the BB, and why, according to your belief? A humble "don't know' would be fine, if you deem it appropriate.

 

[gnostic]

Links to BB beliefs are not evidence, as links to bible passages are not evidence.

They are links to Special Relativity and to General Relativity...not to the Big Bang theory.

You needs to re-read the pages from @ratiocinator

You do have reading comprehension problems.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

They are links to Special Relativity and to General Relativity...not to the Big Bang theory.

You needs to re-read the pages from @ratiocinator

You do have reading comprehension problems.

Look, if you and ratiocinator believe in the BB and do not know what caused the BB and why, you are lost souls yourselves, in the sense you are an expression of something you do not know.

 

[ratiocinator]

So what is the reality represented by the concept 'time' if not the continuity of 3D space?

It's not a specific add on. What's the third dimension in 3D space? There isn't one, space iis just 3-dimensional. Space-time is 4-dimensional.

I say that you are trying to dodge the reality that the concept 'came into existence' means the BB 'began'. It also self evident that nothing can come from nothing, so that leaves either a God was present or a multiverse.

That's just you not understanding the modern, evidence based, view of (space-)time.

 

[ratiocinator]

Science may be good a modelling, but models of reality are not the same as the reality they are meant to represent, a lot of smoke and mirrors can be involved in scientists trying to get money grants, etc..

Sill offering nothing as an alternative that is any more than evidence-free hand-waving.

The science is not only directly testable, as I said before, it's used in everyday technology (the GPS system).

 

[Ben Dhyan]

It's not a specific add on. What's the third dimension in 3D space? There isn't one, space iis just 3-dimensional. Space-time is 4-dimensional.


That's just you not understanding the modern, evidence based, view of (space-)time.

What do you mean by what is the third dimension of 3D space? It is the continuity of 3D space which is called the 4th dimension of 4D spacetime. Time is merely the concept to represent 3D existence continuing to exist.

My awareness includes that of experiencing spacetime directly, the universe is the source of me, I am an expression of it, I understand what and who I am in the context of all that exists. Not just conceptually, but in reality.

 

[ratiocinator]

Time is merely the concept to represent 3D existence continuing to exist.

No, it isn't. The GPS wouldn't work if it was designed based on this simplistic view.

My awareness includes that of experiencing spacetime directly, the universe is the source of me, I am an expression of it, I understand what and who I am in the context of all that exists. Not just conceptually, but in reality.

Yeah, right. Evidence- and reasoning-free assertion.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Sill offering nothing as an alternative that is any more than evidence-free hand-waving.

The science is not only directly testable, as I said before, it's used in everyday technology (the GPS system).

Look ratiocinator, science has its place in assisting humanity to understand the physics of universal reality, but only the human mind in the non-dualistic state can be aware of the underlying reality of the universe. As I said, unless a soul knows what and who they are in the context of the universe, then they are basically lost souls. Appropriate religious practice compliments objective knowledge and without it, atheists will never understand they are an expression of deity.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

No, it isn't. The GPS wouldn't work if it was designed based on this simplistic view.


Yeah, right. Evidence- and reasoning-free assertion.

I beg your pardon, are you serious?

There is a rock in front of you, as you look at it, it doesn't disappear, as you look at the clock, you realize you have been looking at the rock continuing to exist for one minute, There is no entity in existence called time, just a concept to represent existence existing, all so called time measurements involve a proxy like a pendulum, a sun dial, the dawning and setting of the sun, etc..

 

[ratiocinator]

Look ratiocinator, science has its place in assisting humanity to understand the physics of universal reality, but only the human mind in the non-dualistic state can be aware of the underlying reality of the universe. As I said, unless a soul knows what and who they are in the context of the universe, then they are basically lost souls. Appropriate religious practice compliments objective knowledge and without it, atheists will never understand they are an expression of deity.

Lots of grandiose claims, zero reason to believe them, and plenty of reasons to think them bogus.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Lots of grandiose claims, zero reason to believe them, and plenty of reasons to think them bogus.

Let us start slowly, everything in the universe is an expression of the universe, whether it be a flower, an atom, a star, or a human being, yes?

Try and imagine yourself as an expression of the universe? If it is so, then the universe is the ultimate source of you, yes?

 

[ratiocinator]

I beg your pardon, are you serious?

I am. I'm beginning to think that you are not.

There is a rock in front of you, as you look at it, it doesn't disappear, as you look at the clock, you realize you have been looking at the rock continuing to exist for one minute, There is no entity in existence called time, just a concept to represent existence existing, all so called time measurements involve a proxy like a pendulum, a sun dial, the dawning and setting of the sun, etc..

Many, many aspects of the world are not as they seem to our senses and the way our minds work. There really is no reason to think that our way of looking at the world should be universally applicable, they evolved to help us make sense of a very limited, tiny subset of reality, well enough for survival. Nothing more.

Nothing in modern technology would work if we took your approach of "this is how it seems to us, so that is how it is". All the electronics in the device you are using to post, relies on Quantum Mechanics. If you think the GR view of space-time is not how it is because of the simplistic way it seems to us, take a look at QM.

Reality is simply not the way it subjectively seems to be to humans. There is endless evidence for this.

 

[ratiocinator]

Let us start slowly, everything in the universe is an expression of the universe...

'Expression' seems to imply something deliberate. There is no evidence for that. We are a part of the universe. Creatures that evolved to survive in a very limited and very particular environment. That informs all our subjective impressions of reality and the universe.

Our intuitions are simply not generally applicable outside that context and are simplistic and distorted even within it, because of the need for making quick choices for survival in the environment we evolved in.

The careful, evidence based, study of the physical world has provided endless evidence of that, and it's the acceptance of that that has enabled the technology you are using right now.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I am. I'm beginning to think that you are not.


Many, many aspects of the world are not as they seem to our senses and the way our minds work. There really is no reason to think that our way of looking at the world should be universally applicable, they evolved to help us make sense of a very limited, tiny subset of reality, well enough for survival. Nothing more.

Nothing in modern technology would work if we took your approach of "this is how it seems to us, so that is how it is". All the electronics in the device you are using to post, relies on Quantum Mechanics. If you think the GR view of space-time is not how it is because of the simplistic way it seems to us, take a look at QM.

Reality is simply not the way it subjectively seems to be to humans. There is endless evidence for this.

Stick to principles and it is not so difficult to apprehend. Atomics clocks, quartz x'tals, etc. use the same principle as the pendulum, just counting cycles. Proxy measurement of self generated cycles to 'time' existence continuing to exist.

QV is merely space, called it what you will, etc., in the sense it is omnipresent, it occupies the same space as that which other culture may conceive of as ether, zpe, spirit, dark energy, etc.. this is is not saying the reality represented by these concepts are one and the same, just that different cultures and different times attribute different natures to this same one omnipresent universal space.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

'Expression' seems to imply something deliberate. There is no evidence for that. We are a part of the universe. Creatures that evolved to survive in a very limited and very particular environment. That informs all our subjective impressions of reality and the universe.

Our intuitions are simply not generally applicable outside that context and are simplistic and distorted even within it, because of the need for making quick choices for survival in the environment we evolved in.

The careful, evidence based, study of the physical world has provided endless evidence of that, and it's the acceptance of that that has enabled the technology you are using right now.

You talk too much. If you can't see yourself as an expression of the universe, then we can't take it to the next step. I don't mean that I am trying to brainwash you, if you can't see clearly that the universe is expressing itself through you, then that's just the reality of your present understanding of what you are in the context of all that is.

 

[ratiocinator]

Stick to principles and it is not so difficult to apprehend. Atomics clocks, quartz x'tals, etc. use the same principle as the pendulum, just counting cycles. Proxy measurement of self generated cycles to 'time' existence continuing to exist.

You're still not getting it at all. Observe a pendulum that is moving relative to you, and it will be going slower. If somebody is moving along with that pendulum looks at one stationary with respect to you, and they will see that one going slower than theirs. It's symmetrical, each will see the other's going slower. This is made completely clear with the geometry of space-time.

A pendulum deep in a gravitational field will go slower than one out in empty space, or even at the height of a GPS satellite relative to the surface of the Earth. This is made clear by the varying geometry of space-time ('curvature').

Both of these effects are small on a human level but very significant to a system like the GPS and both need to be compensated for.

QV is merely space, called it what you will, etc., in the sense it is omnipresent, it occupies the same space as that which other culture may conceive of as ether, zpe, spirit, dark energy, etc.. this is is not saying the reality represented by these concepts are one and the same, just that different cultures and different times attribute different natures to this same one omnipresent universal space.

QV? Word salad, yum.

 

[ratiocinator]

You talk too much. If you can't see yourself as an expression of the universe, then we can't take it to the next step. I don't mean that I am trying to brainwash you, if you can't see clearly that the universe is expressing itself through you, then that's just the reality of your present understanding of what you are in the context of all that is.

There is no evidence that the universe is (deliberately) expressing anything. It's just doing what it does.

You seem to have made up a fantasy version of reality in which humans are really special and can somehow connect directly to reality. This sort of superstition is not uncommon. It's just expressed in various different ways to reach different conclusions, none of which are testable or objective.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You're still not getting it at all. Observe a pendulum that is moving relative to you, and it will be going slower. If somebody is moving along with that pendulum looks at one stationary with respect to you, and they will see that one going slower than theirs. It's symmetrical, each will see the other's going slower. This is made completely clear with the geometry of space-time.

A pendulum deep in a gravitational field will go slower than one out in empty space, or even at the height of a GPS satellite relative to the surface of the Earth. This is made clear by the varying geometry of space-time ('curvature').

Both of these effects are small on a human level but very significant to a system like the GPS and both need to be compensated for.


QV? Word salad, yum.

You are changing the subject, do you see that the concept of time represents the continuation of existence, and measurement of existence existing must employ using a proxy because there is no actual entity called time.

Word salad maybe, but there is only one omnipresent universal space, and there are all these attributes claimed for it, a wise soul may consider them all.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

There is no evidence that the universe is (deliberately) expressing anything. It's just doing what it does.

You seem to have made up a fantasy version of reality in which humans are really special and can somehow connect directly to reality. This sort of superstition is not uncommon. It's just expressed in various different ways to reach different conclusions, none of which are testable or objective.

There you go, that is your present understanding, and so you will not understand my pov.

So the good news is that we now know that our respective povs are not complementary and thus save time.