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Why Didn't the Universe Always Exist?

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I love this essay: The Beginning. by Brig Klyce

Nor is anything gained by running the difficulty farther back.... Our going back, ever so far, brings us no nearer to the least degree of satisfaction upon the subject. — William Paley (1)
How did life begin in the first place? It's a natural question. Yet science is nowhere near the answer to this question. In fact, the question may be flawed. Maybe there was no beginning. This possibility cannot be logically ruled out.
Old references, 1873 and 1914 are meaningless today. This view as with many with a strong religious bent against science based on the fallacy 'arguing from supposed ignorance does not reflect the current knowledge of abiogenesis and evolution.
Helmholtz

Helmholtz​

This possible consequence of cosmic ancestry is not new. In 1873, the great German physicist Hermann von Helmholtz said, "if failure attends all of our efforts to obtain a generation of organisms from lifeless matter, it seems to me a thoroughly correct scientific procedure to inquire whether there has ever been an origination of life, or whether it is not as old as matter..." (2). Contemporaneously with Helmholtz, Louis Pasteur wrote (3):


In 1914, BAAS President William Bateson suggested that life may have evolved from an original complex that already included all of its ensuing variety (3.5). How could that begin? And in 1926, Russian geochemist V. I. Vernadskii observed (4):
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
The universe cannot have always existed. That would be an infinite regress, meaning we would never arrive at the present moment. Let's say I have to complete a certain number of math problems before I can play video games. Maybe it's five problems; fine, then I can play in five minutes. Maybe it's a hundred problems. Less convenient, but I'll get there. Infinite problems? I'd never get to play video games! Similarly, if there were an infinite number of points in time before this one, this point in time could never exist. Ergo, the universe must have a beginning.

What do you think? Am I missing something? Peace :)
That is a good point. If the universe always existed how long did to take to get to here? Was it infinite time? The estimate we have for time until today is based on a BB beginning, and not a perpetual universe with no beginning. If there was no beginning, we can conceptually start t=0 anywhere, as a reference variable, but will never have an actual genuine t=0. BB time would be a temporal fad.

Say we start from the BB, and it took 13 billion earth years to get to here, how long did the singularity linger in earth years? Or are we still within the singularity, but looking out from the inside, via a more expanded space-time reference?

If I could travel at the speed of light; Special Relativity, the universe would appear contracted to a point instant, which would appears to be the original BB singularity. The universe would not have contracted, because of me, but rather I would appear to see what is not there, due to my reference relativity. If we had an eternal universe; steady state, and the brain could alter reference, we could appear to see the early contracted or expanded universe, all from the POV of an eternal steady state universe. Consciousness could phase in and out, like zooming in an out with a telescope or microscope.

An always existing universe, disproves the universal claim of the BB, since its t=0 is arbitrary as well as reference dependent. There was no earth reference at t=0, yet we measure from the earth. The BB, at t=0, would have been so time dilated due to GR and SR. The inflation could be an artifact of both GR and SR, both able to contract reference to a point; double whammy, until GR and SR shrink add property for space-time.

I prefer the idea of space-time and independent space and independent time. Space-time is finite, while independent space and time is not limited to the constraints of space-time, and can be define as always having existed. This model has two realms, with space-time like an ice cube floating in the endless sea of separated space and time. It is melting back to the mother ship; 2nd law. It is very simple solution that first graders can memorize. Unlike most physics theory it can also accommodate life and consciousness, which is beyond just space-time physics.

For example, imagination, connected to consciousness, can put together space-time data in combinations that are not part of space-time. For example, wings, sun, humans, and wax are all part of space-time. How about wings made of wax used by human, to fly into the sun. This is possible in the imagination, but it is not part of space-time, even though the four parts are. The imagination; innovation, is beyond just space-time and what we can expect to happen in space-time, from just the laws of physics and chance. Innovation needs the human mind, that can go beyond these laws, where space and time are not tethered; impossible combinations in space-time. A genuine theory of everything has to go beyond just physics, and also include consciousness and life, since life and consciousness can manipulate space-time rules for innovative solutions. This comes from separated space and time, where we break the tethers of space-time rules, to add an added stream to space-time; civilization.

This topic is mind expanding and is occurring where space-time ends and separated space and time begin. There is no real solution but rather all the options can be on the table, since they are possible in separated space and time.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
That is a good point. If the universe always existed how long did to take to get to here? Was it infinite time? The estimate we have for time until today is based on a BB beginning, and not a perpetual universe with no beginning. If there was no beginning, we can conceptually start t=0 anywhere, as a reference variable, but will never have an actual genuine t=0. BB time would be a temporal fad.

Say we start from the BB, and it took 13 billion earth years to get to here, how long did the singularity linger in earth years? Or are we still within the singularity, but looking out from the inside, via a more expanded space-time reference?

If I could travel at the speed of light; Special Relativity, the universe would appear contracted to a point instant, which would appears to be the original BB singularity. The universe would not have contracted, because of me, but rather I would appear to see what is not there, due to my reference relativity. If we had an eternal universe; steady state, and the brain could alter reference, we could appear to see the early contracted or expanded universe, all from the POV of an eternal steady state universe. Consciousness could phase in and out, like zooming in an out with a telescope or microscope.

An always existing universe, disproves the universal claim of the BB, since its t=0 is arbitrary as well as reference dependent. There was no earth reference at t=0, yet we measure from the earth. The BB, at t=0, would have been so time dilated due to GR and SR. The inflation could be an artifact of both GR and SR, both able to contract reference to a point; double whammy, until GR and SR shrink add property for space-time.

I prefer the idea of space-time and independent space and independent time. Space-time is finite, while independent space and time is not limited to the constraints of space-time, and can be define as always having existed. This model has two realms, with space-time like an ice cube floating in the endless sea of separated space and time. It is melting back to the mother ship; 2nd law. It is very simple solution that first graders can memorize. Unlike most physics theory it can also accommodate life and consciousness, which is beyond just space-time physics.

For example, imagination, connected to consciousness, can put together space-time data in combinations that are not part of space-time. For example, wings, sun, humans, and wax are all part of space-time. How about wings made of wax used by human, to fly into the sun. This is possible in the imagination, but it is not part of space-time, even though the four parts are. The imagination; innovation, is beyond just space-time and what we can expect to happen in space-time, from just the laws of physics and chance. Innovation needs the human mind, that can go beyond these laws, where space and time are not tethered; impossible combinations in space-time. A genuine theory of everything has to go beyond just physics, and also include consciousness and life, since life and consciousness can manipulate space-time rules for innovative solutions. This comes from separated space and time, where we break the tethers of space-time rules, to add an added stream to space-time; civilization.

This topic is mind expanding and is occurring where space-time ends and separated space and time begin. There is no real solution but rather all the options can be on the table, since they are possible in separated space and time.

Your post have to many “What if…”, including the 3 paragraphs, but here you offer “What I prefer” scenario go with the “What if…”

The question I have is why do you want the cosmology to venture into human imagination and not on physics of the cosmology?

I think there are already more than enough imagination in theoretical aspects of sciences (eg theoretical physics, theoretical astrophysics, theoretical cosmology, etc), but you want to go beyond that.

A lot of these theoretical scientists have already tried to “think outside-the-box”, with some successes of their models of becoming accepted science, but there have been some failed models too (eg (A) those models that have been tested but refuted, and (B) those models have rejected out of hand for being unrealistic & unfalsifiable).

A scientific theory have to be based on what available evidence or experiments & data that support the theory, and not because of any one person’s personal belief or preference.

So my next question to you:

Just exactly what non-physics solution that you have as alternative to the BB theory?
 
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idea

Question Everything
Old references, 1873 and 1914 are meaningless today. This view as with many with a strong religious bent against science based on the fallacy 'arguing from supposed ignorance does not reflect the current knowledge of abiogenesis and evolution.

Many core concepts remain unchanged over the years; while new research emerges, the foundational insights from early 20th-century continue to underpin our current understanding.

Same website, new news:
 

gnostic

The Lost One
..so scientific theories are not scientific theories, if they are not (or cannot) be tested.

Yes.

It must followed the guidelines of Methodological Naturalism and Scientific Method.

The Scientific Method have many steps, but it be broadly divided two main sections:
  1. Formulation of a hypothesis.
  2. Testing the hypothesis.

The first part - formulating the hypothesis -

Always begins with OBSERVATIONS (to the phenomena) follow by QUESTIONS about those observations.​
This is usually followed by RESEARCH, attempting to find solutions to the questions.​
Then the next step is using the research, to FORMULATE THE HYPOTHESIS, which involved​
(A) explaining WHAT the phenomena are, and HOW the phenomena work; the explanations would often include logical models, like formulas or equations (these are maths are the “proofs”);​
(B) based on the explanations, above, scientist would make some predictions, some sorts of like baseline for the expected outcomes when the scientist test the hypothesis;​
(C) the hypothesis should also include instructions of how one would test the models within a hypothesis - like where & when to the evidence, or how one would perform the lab experiments.​
The second part - testing the hypothesis -
Following the instructions of (C), one would actually TEST each model separately by finding the evidence, or by performing experiments. The more evidence and test results from experiments, the better chance of verifying or refuting each model. The tests should also yield some information (DATA) about the phenomena - these data would often come in the forms of quantities and measurements.​
ANALYZE THE DATA, to find out whether the experiments & evidence (A) refute the model (B) verify the model.​
The CONCLUSION should be based on whether the tests (experiments, evidence & data) verify or refute the explanations & predictions of the hypothesis.​

These are the procedures in the Scientific Method, one would test a new hypothesis, to see if the hypothesis would quantify of becoming a “scientific theory“ and be accepted as a new field in science.

As this thread is about the universe, the current scientific theory is the Big Bang theory, and the BB encompassed currently the latest model -the Lambda-CDM model, formulated during the late 1990s, that explained why the expansion of the universe is accelerating, the abundance and distribution of lightest elements (hydrogen, helium & lithium), and the formation of large structures (eg stellar formation, galactic formation, etc).

However the original model began during the 1920s, which was unofficially called the Expanding Universe model. Friedmann, Robertson & Lemaître have independently used Einstein’s Field Equations as framework for the new cosmology that the universe have been expanding; the revised equations became known as the Friedmann equations, when used with a metric (FLRW metric). Robertson & Lemaître also predicted that the galaxies were moving away from each other, by observing the redshift of the objects. It is the discovery of the redshifts in 1929, by Edwin Hubble that provided the first evidence for the Expanding Universe model.

This was followed in 1948’s model by Gamow, Alpher & Herman about formation of the lightest elements (hydrogen, helium & lithium) in the universe known as the Primordial Nucleosynthesis (today known as Big Bang Nucleosynthesis, BBN), and the detection of the earliest radiation - the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR).

The 3rd model was developed in the early 1980s, by Guth, Linde & Starobinsky, who each independently developed model on the Cosmic Inflation, where the universe underwent exponential expansion. The Cosmic Inflation solved several problems of the 1948’s model, why there are particle horizon and why the shape of the universe is geometrically flat, and why there are no magnetic monopole.

Prior to the original model, Edwin Hubble have observed in 1919 that the universe was much larger than the Milky Way, and that the Milky Way was only one among many galaxies. That’s what started the questions & researches on cosmology, with the Expanding Universe model & the original Steady-state model, during the 1920s.

The reasons why the Big Bang theory has survived to this day, is because the evidence supported the predictions of each models. Maybe one day, a new alternative theory will replace the BB theory, but it must meet the requirements of the Scientific Method as the BB theory have.
 
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muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
The reasons why the Big Bang theory has survived to this day, is because the evidence supported the predictions of each models. Maybe one day, a new alternative theory will replace the BB theory, but it must meet the requirements of the Scientific Method as the BB theory have.
That's right .. the same applies to the theory that we all derive from a single molecule (and many
other of the sprawling theories of evolution).

..so the ToE is "a fact", whilst the BB is not a fact. :D
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Many core concepts remain unchanged over the years; while new research emerges, the foundational insights from early 20th-century continue to underpin our current understanding.

Same website, new news:
I believe in the physical and spiritual evolution of humanity over time and of course, knowledge changes, There is a problem in any religion to try and force to literal and inflexible understanding scripture or we will be left in the dust of ancient paradigms. Humility of understanding is the best route.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
That's right .. the same applies to the theory that we all derive from a single molecule (and many
other of the sprawling theories of evolution).

..so the ToE is "a fact", whilst the BB is not a fact. :D
Describing the ToE as a fact is misleading, though often misused to describe the certainty of the sciences of evolution,. The Sciences of evolution is an evolving body of knowledge based on objective verifiable and predictable "facts" describing the history of life on earth,

The BBT is Science is not considered a "fact" either and less certain than the sciences of evolution.,
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Many core concepts remain unchanged over the years; while new research emerges, the foundational insights from early 20th-century continue to underpin our current understanding.

Clear over statement of old references, Oldy moldy is oldy moldy.

Yes scientific knowledge evolves on the foundation of older science, but particularly the old references to unknowns of abiogenesis are not helpful.
Good reference, more current and does address unanswered questions concerning early evolution and abiogenesis. Particularly concerning abiogenesis it is best to explore the current progress of research, advances and discoveries. Your references does address some of these. I have had at least two threads that address this,
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Say we start from the singularity of the BB, and it took 13 billion earth years to get to here, how long did the singularity linger in earth years? Or are we still within the singularity, but looking out from the inside, via a more expanded space-time reference?
I quoted myself. The current BB model is not an explosion model that propels matter outward, causing space-time to expand with the lowering mass density; GR. This model can be demonstrates in the lab. The current model has space-time expanding first, and thereby leading the matter to spread out with expanding space-time like filling a ballon with air. The science problem is, how can you demonstrate that in the lab, without using other matter expanding to get the needed experimental zone of space-time to expand? I do not think they ever demonstrated this model in reality. It is hard to sneak that past someone who knows science. It is a conceptual flaw.

This space-time driven expansion is explained with dark matter and dark energy. However, neither of these has been shown to real in the lab; particle accelerators. Math allows you to model, even things without proof. What is more fundamental is the conceptual framework.

That model, where unproven expanding space-time leads, could actually allow the singularity to "appear to expand", until we are inside the singularity with a reference that is highly magnified. This change of reference can be simulated by slowing from the speed of light to finite speed. A point-instant universe will be seen at the speed of light. This universe never changes, but rather we will appear to see the point expanding and changing detail level, due to our slowing reference; cause space-time reference to expand. That type of model could actually support an eternal universe, since the details appear, based on where you look; reference, in space-time; going faster or slower from C.

I can at least prove separated space and separated time, by recycling the results of Heisenberg's experiments. Position is static; space, while momentum is dynamic; needs time. In the Heisenberg experiment, space and time were not walking together, tethered as expected in the three legged race of space-time. Space-time also stays tethered together in SR and GR. But they appear disconnected; loosen tether, at the quantum scale, as shown by the Heisenberg experiments.

The worst blunder of Science was interpreting Heisenberg data as connected to uncertainty; Uncertainty Principle. The Golden Age of Science ended and the age of uncertainty began. In the case of Heisenberg, space and time were always inversely related; logical, not random. I call this the Heisenberg Certainty Theorem. Einstein said, he did not think God chose to play dice with the universe. This was in reference to the trend to move toward dice and cards, away from a more rational deterministic model, such as a simple inverse Heisenberg relationship.

I applied to the Copy Right Office for a copy of my MDT theory contents. I am waiting for a price estimate.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
The universe cannot have always existed. That would be an infinite regress, meaning we would never arrive at the present moment. Let's say I have to complete a certain number of math problems before I can play video games. Maybe it's five problems; fine, then I can play in five minutes. Maybe it's a hundred problems. Less convenient, but I'll get there. Infinite problems? I'd never get to play video games! Similarly, if there were an infinite number of points in time before this one, this point in time could never exist. Ergo, the universe must have a beginning.

What do you think? Am I missing something? Peace :)
Infinite regress isn't a problem. All that one needs is any brute fact that fluctuates. Heck, an infinite regress could be the brute fact foundation of reality itself.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
That's not in the theory of evolution. Shouldn't you at least know what the theory of evolution says before complaining about it?
I'm not complaining about it .. just saying that it is comprised of a lot of theories,
with some recognized as "fact", and others speculation.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
That's right .. the same applies to the theory that we all derive from a single molecule
That's not in the theory of evolution. Shouldn't you at least know what the theory of evolution says before complaining about commenting on it?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
This space-time driven expansion is explained with dark matter and dark energy. However, neither of these has been shown to real in the lab; particle accelerators. Math allows you to model, even things without proof. What is more fundamental is the conceptual framework.

Dark matter is used to explain their gravitational effects on large structures, eg galaxies, galactic clusters, molecular clouds, nebulas, stars, etc.

The expansion of the universe, of spacetime, is explained with Dark Energy.

Unlike Dark Matter, which is the attractive gravitational force, Dark Energy, on the other hand, is the repulsive force that drive the expansion, and possibly also responsible for the cosmic inflation (exponential rapid expansion).

Prior to the introduction of Dark Energy, eg the last two models of the Big Bang theory: the Cosmic Inflation model (early 1980s), the Lambda-CDM model (ΛCDM, late 1990s), the expansion of the universe are dependent on 3 essential factors:
  1. The Cosmological Principle: that the universe observed at larger scale (greater than 200 million light-year), is known to be both uniformly isotopic (eg universe appeared the same in every direction, regardless of the positions in the universe) & homogeneous (eg evidence are the same regardless of positions in the universe).
  2. The Redshift: measurement of distance are based on shifts in the electromagnetic spectrum, eg using spectrometry. The distance are from the “Observer” and the “observed” respective objects (eg galaxies). If the objects appear blue in spectrometer, then the objects would appear moving towards each other, that would imply the universe to be contracting. But if the objects appeared to be shifted towards each other the red end of EM spectrum, then the objects are moving away from each other, indicating the universe is expanding.
  3. The Friedmann Equations and the FLRW metric: The Friedmann Equations are actually based on Einstein’s Field Equations that Einstein have formulated in his General Relativity theory (1915), which Alexander Friedmann revised (1922), with the then Friedmann metric (now called FLRW metric). Georges Lemaître did the same thing, independently in 1927.
Together, they are part of the Hubble’s Law, as Edwin Hubble discovered the redshifts in 1929.

In the Friedmann Equations has equation notion for the rate (velocity) of expansion, denoted by H0, the Hubble Constant, although it is really not a constant, because throughout its history, the values have changed, from Hubble’s measurement (1929) of H0 to be 500 (km/s)/Mpc, to the Planck 2018 Data Release of the CMBR to 66.88 (km/s)/Mpc.

Whereas the WMAP & the Planck have used the CMBR to measure the expansion rate (H0), while Edwin Hubble used the Cepheid variable stars as his benchmark or “standard candle”. In 1998, the standard candle was the observation of the Type 1a Supernova, independently observed by 2 different teams, led by Adam Riess (High-Z Supernova Search Team), and by Saul Perlmutter (Supernova Cosmology Project).

And here is the punchline, since 1998, the observations of Type 1a Supernova provided indirect evidence of Dark Energy, which are supported by the WMAP & the Planck missions. It was in 1998, that led to formulation of the latest BB model - the ΛCDM. Both Riess & Perlmutter (independently) stated that the universe is slowing down its expansion, instead it is accelerating.

Anyway, Dark Matter is not doing the same thing as Dark Energy. Dark Matter is responsible for formation of large structures, like stars, galaxies, quasars, nebulae, etc.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I'm not complaining about it .. just saying that it is comprised of a lot of theories,
with some recognized as "fact", and others speculation.
This is very confusing and contradictory understanding as to what is a "fact" and what is a "theory" in science. It reflects your lack of knowledge of science.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
This is very confusing and contradictory understanding as to what is a "fact" and what is a "theory" in science. It reflects your lack of knowledge of science.
Not really.
A "fact" has been shown to be true, through empirical evidence, whilst many theories are often
thought to be true, but cannot be categorically proved.

..theories in evolutionary psychology being a case in point.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Not really.
Yes, really
A "fact" has been shown to be true, through empirical evidence,
True, but in previous posts you equated Theories as claims of being "facts," which as previously noted is a miss use of the word "fact." When some say evolution is a "fact" this is a layman's miss use of the terminology as to what is a "fact,"
whilst many theories are often
thought to be true, but cannot be categorically proved.
This is where your glaring problem with the ignorance of science based on your religious agenda is apparent, Theories in science are NOT "categorically proven," nor "thought to be true." The Theories that are foundation of ALL sciences are the same theories that are the foundation of the sciences of evolution.

SCIENCE DOES NOT PROVE ANYTHING. Scientific theories and hypotheses are falsified by Methodological Naturalism based on objective verifiable evidence that provides predictable results.

See -0st #1,708 which you apparently misunderstood.

You have a severe problem with basic understanding and terminology of science.
..theories in evolutionary psychology being a case in point.
There is no theory of evolutionary psychology in the sciences of evolution. Psychology. like all human science, interpret the origins of human behavior as evolved, which the foundation of the sciences of evolution is not dependent on interpretations. The sciences of evolution is dependent on the objective verifiable evidence not the interpretation by other sciences. I seriously doubt you have any significant knowledge in the sciences of evolution or psychology to make such judgements. Can you provide specific citations to support your claims against science? Another problem with your understanding of science?
 
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muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Theories in science are NOT "categorically proven,"..
Some are..
Is it not a fact that 'hereditary traits' are passed on from parents to their offspring?
..so more than a theory, then.

There is no theory of evolutionary psychology in the sciences of evolution. Psychology. like all human science, interpret the origins of human behavior as evolved..
You've just contradicted yourself.

Evolutionary_psychology - Wikipedia

Are you suggesting that no unproven theories exist in the above?
 

Balthazzar

N. Germanic Descent
We don't know whether the universe always existed. There are some compelling hypothesis but there is no theory (though some hypothesis are misnamed theories).
If time, space and matter were created at the same time, there is no "before" the Big Bang. And "always" is at every time. The universe always existed in that case.
If there was time before the Big Bang, the energy of the universe could still have existed, either as an eternal singularity or in a previous universe. Our known universe would then be a different state or instantiation.
The eternal singularity has seemingly the same problem as your question. It arises from the unintuitive nature of infinities. Why is there a zero if there are infinite negative numbers?

Inside/outside
-/+
0

The infinite measure of all

It's an ouroboros reality or dna ... But I'm unsure about the latter

Maybe an n-sphere - multiple zeros going in every direction inward and outward without end and with infinite amount of space or "nothingness" which is definitely "something" between every zero point to grow on or in.
 

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