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Why Didn't the Universe Always Exist?

gnostic

The Lost One
We are talking about the same reality as you call the universe, I respect that and use that term myself in the scientific context, but in the proper religious context, I may use the concept 'God', or more specifically 'God's creation', God bless.

I don't anthromorphize or personify the Sun with Ra, Helios or Surya, nor the Moon with Selene, Artemis, Thoth, nor the Sky with Horus, Nut, Anu, nor the Earth with Gaia, Geb, Jord, nor the Sea with Poseidon, nor thunder with Zeus, Jupiter, Thor, Indra, nor war with Ares, Sekhmet, Odin, Freyja, and so on.

When people do that, then that just people being superstitious.

You are equating your God with reality or with the Universe, and to me is no different what these other ancient people have been doing for centuries or for millennia, of being superstitious.

How are you and your belief any different?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
What do you (as a Baha'i) think of Wolfram's idea of the hypergraph? Its not a religious idea but seems to fit into certain religious positions. He tries to figure out a universal theory of physics that models the universe mathematically. Within the hypergraphs are the construct of time and space which appear to have a beginning though they exist inside the (eternal I add) hypergraphs. Where would God be? Outside the hypergraphs? Would the hypergraphs be inside God? I am curious what you'd think about it as a Baha'i.

Below is an online article about it:
"https://www.sciencenews.org/article/stephen-wolfram-hypergraph-project-fundamental-theory-physics"
Wolfram's idea of the hypergraph is proposal that the universe is a hypergraph of points. IT is a hypothetical explanation to make things fit a Unified Theory. I can only give it best a maybe, because it trying to work a geometry of the universe back words to make things fit a Unified Theory,

I am not comfortable with this approach
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
I have very good reason to doubt the sincerity your gratuitous "Thank you."

Your avoiding the clear and specific definitions of what is "opinion, supernatural and miraculous," and the difference between evidence based knowledge, and subjective beliefs without evidence,
"
The next word in the dictionary after miracle is mirage."
Treat others as one would like to be treated is not being gratuitous imho.

My comments to simsi that you and gnostic are reacting to was in the context of religion, not science. That you and gnostic have decided to engage me on the subject of the reality represented by the concept of 'God' by saying it is opinion, supernatural, superstition, miraculous, unfounded belief, etc., is your prerogative, and I respect that you have expressed your opinion.

God bless.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
I don't anthromorphize or personify the Sun with Ra, Helios or Surya, nor the Moon with Selene, Artemis, Thoth, nor the Sky with Horus, Nut, Anu, nor the Earth with Gaia, Geb, Jord, nor the Sea with Poseidon, nor thunder with Zeus, Jupiter, Thor, Indra, nor war with Ares, Sekhmet, Odin, Freyja, and so on.

When people do that, then that just people being superstitious.

You are equating your God with reality or with the Universe, and to me is no different what these other ancient people have been doing for centuries or for millennia, of being superstitious.

How are you and your belief any different?
Belief in some reality implies duality, the believer on the one hand and the belief on the other.

However, to transcend duality and become one with reality is yoga, ie,., union, so no belief is involved.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
I have very good reason to doubt the sincerity your gratuitous "Thank you."

Your avoiding the clear and specific definitions of what is "opinion, supernatural and miraculous," and the difference between evidence based knowledge, and subjective beliefs without evidence,
"
The next word in the dictionary after miracle is mirage."


How extraordinarily ungracious of you.

You mock simple people and their simple faith (not that @Ben Dhyan is simple), yet in truth they possess something of far greater value than all your supposed knowledge, and all your intellectual pride.
 
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gnostic

The Lost One
Belief in some reality implies duality, the believer on the one hand and the belief on the other.

However, to transcend duality and become one with reality is yoga, ie,., union, so no belief is involved.

it is still superstition, regardless it is duality or not, whether you do meditation or not, whether it is union or not.

if you ditch God, then you may have something else, but you are adamant that God one with reality and one with Universe, so that still superstition. And that still belief, so I really don’t really give a damn whether there are duality or one. Superstition is superstition.

i see that you have stil have faith-based belief, regardless the oneness or union.
 
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Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
it is still superstition, regardless it is duality or not, whether you do meditation or not, whether it is union or not.

if you ditch God, then you may have something else, but you are adamant that God one with reality and one with Universe, so that still superstition. And that still belief, so I really don’t really give a damn whether there are duality or one. Superstition is superstition.

i see that you have stil have faith-based belief, regardless the oneness or union.
Ok, let me try and understand, you are saying duality is superstition and non-duality/union is superstition, meditation is superstition and non-meditation is superstition?

To be consistent, should not according to your logic, science be superstition, and non-science also be superstition, superstition be superstition and non-superstition be superstition, everything is superstition!
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Ok, let me try and understand, you are saying duality is superstition and non-duality/union is superstition, meditation is superstition and non-meditation is superstition?

No, you are not paying attention.

I am saying whenever you inject “God” into “reality”, into “universe”, or into “infinity”, Sky, Sun, Moon, Earth, sea, thunder, rain, etc, all that are simply believing in superstitions.

Do you not recall, your previous reply that “there is nothing outside of God”, blah, blah, blah:

The reality represented by the concept 'God' is infinite and eternal, the reality represented by the concept 'space' and 'time' is infinite and eternal respectively. God is one, there is nothing outside of God. God is the eternal now, God is the infinite space.

You are basically saying God is everywhere, including the universe, eternal or infinite space. All of them: “God this”, “God, that“ - that’s all superstitions. You are attributing space and time to God - superstition.

The whole union or oneness vs duality are just smokescreens, you are making excuses that what you believe in, are not superstitions, when they really are just that!
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
No, you are not paying attention.

I am saying whenever you inject “God” into “reality”, into “universe”, or into “infinity”, Sky, Sun, Moon, Earth, sea, thunder, rain, etc, all that are simply believing in superstitions.

Do you not recall, your previous reply that “there is nothing outside of God”, blah, blah, blah:



You are basically saying God is everywhere, including the universe, eternal or infinite space. All of them: “God this”, “God, that“ - that’s all superstitions. You are attributing space and time to God - superstition.

The whole union or oneness vs duality are just smokescreens, you are making excuses that what you believe in, are not superstitions, when they really are just that!
Yes, try to understand, the reality represented by the concept 'God' is 'all there is'. Now if I say to you 'the whole of existence', I would mean 'all there is'. This is not superstition, all that exists is plain English, there is nothing outside of all that exists as a fact of logic, all that exists is all that exists, there is nothing else, it is not mystical.

So if you accept that the concept of 'all that exists' is not mysticism, then next try to understand is that 'all that exists' is the reality represented by the concept of 'God' when I use that concept.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Now if I say to you 'the whole of existence', I would mean 'all there is'.

If that all you have to say, in the above quote, then sure, that’s not superstition.

But that’s not really what you are saying, when you sneak “God” into example, especially when you say in this earlier post -

The reality represented by the concept 'God' is infinite and eternal, the reality represented by the concept 'space' and 'time' is infinite and eternal respectively. God is one, there is nothing outside of God. God is the eternal now, God is the infinite space.

That above, is most definitely “superstition“.

You asserting repeatedly “concept God” that isn’t superstition, is merely making weak excuse, it’s self-denial and it’s sophistry.

You say space & time are “infinite & eternal”. And you say God is “infinite & eternal”. So basically you’re asserting that “space & time” is “God”, that they are both one and the same.

Have you heard of “False Equivalence“?

Because that’s what you are doing.

To give you example of False Equivalence. FE would be like comparing apples and oranges. As they are both fruits, you could conclude that apples are oranges (or vice versa, oranges are apples).

FE is where you use 2 completely different objects to compare them of some shared characteristics, then you would make erroneous and unreasonable conclusion that they are the same things.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
If that all you have to say, in the above quote, then sure, that’s not superstition.

But that’s not really what you are saying, when you sneak “God” into example, especially when you say in this earlier post -



That above, is most definitely “superstition“.

You asserting repeatedly “concept God” that isn’t superstition, is merely making weak excuse, it’s self-denial and it’s sophistry.

You say space & time are “infinite & eternal”. And you say God is “infinite & eternal”. So basically you’re asserting that “space & time” is “God”, that they are both one and the same.

Have you heard of “False Equivalence“?

Because that’s what you are doing.

To give you example of False Equivalence. FE would be like comparing apples and oranges. As they are both fruits, you could conclude that apples are oranges (or vice versa, oranges are apples).

FE is where you use 2 completely different objects to compare them of some shared characteristics, then you would make erroneous and unreasonable conclusion that they are the same things.
Dear gnostic, a concept represents reality (bear in mind that the word 'reality' is also a concept, but you know I mean the actual reality represented by the concept reality), but it is not reality, except as a concept, it is merely a sort of symbol to represent the real. The reader/listener needs to imagine the reality represented by the writer/speaker, not just use one's own definition/understanding.

So now hopefully we can agree that the reality represented by the concept 'God' as 'all that is' is not superstition in the context I was using it.

It is true that God to some people may be the FSM, or some old man with a beard in the heavens, etc., and in these cases the concept is being using in a superstitious context. But the same situation can arise with the concept of science, some people may use the word science in the context of talking to the dead, or fortune telling, etc..
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Dear gnostic, a concept represents reality (bear in mind that the word 'reality' is also a concept, but you know I mean the actual reality represented by the concept reality), but it is not reality, except as a concept, it is merely a sort of symbol to represent the real. The reader/listener needs to imagine the reality represented by the writer/speaker, not just use one's own definition/understanding.

So now hopefully we can agree that the reality represented by the concept 'God' as 'all that is' is not superstition in the context I was using it.

It is true that God to some people may be the FSM, or some old man with a beard in the heavens, etc., and in these cases the concept is being using in a superstitious context. But the same situation can arise with the concept of science, some people may use the word science in the context of talking to the dead, or fortune telling, etc..

You can do yoga & meditate on reality, and presume the concept of God, all you want, but a concept is merely an abstract idea, that cannot be real without evidence to support it. Meditations are not evidence.

And an unfounded concept is no different from personal opinion or personal belief, which still leave you concept of God that I don’t see as part of reality, the Universe, the “all there is” - and attributing reality with concept of God, is still a superstition.

How do define “concept“?

I defines it as being “idea”, hence abstract. It can be true or false, correct or incorrect. A concept without substance, without evidence, are no different from imagination, opinion or belief.

In my book, concepts are not real, until it has been tested & verified as being “probable”, which it isn’t, if you are meditating over the concept.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
You can do yoga & meditate on reality, and presume the concept of God, all you want, but a concept is merely an abstract idea, that cannot be real without evidence to support it. Meditations are not evidence.

And an unfounded concept is no different from personal opinion or personal belief, which still leave you concept of God that I don’t see as part of reality, the Universe, the “all there is” - and attributing reality with concept of God, is still a superstition.

How do define “concept“?

I defines it as being “idea”, hence abstract. It can be true or false, correct or incorrect. A concept without substance, without evidence, are no different from imagination, opinion or belief.

In my book, concepts are not real, until it has been tested & verified as being “probable”, which it isn’t, if you are meditating over the concept.
All concepts are abstract dear gnostic, that is what I have been trying to convey, reality is forever on the other side of words.

Now if you test and have evidence/proof that an idea is real, then you understand the reality represented by the concept/word, but you cannot expect that everyone knows that reality, because many just believe it to be true based on the authority or others.

For example, take the reality represented by the concept 'God', or 'Speed of Light', many people believe in it as an abstract idea based on the authority of teachers but have no direct proof or evidence of its existence. But not all people, some have realized it to be true from the evidence of testing, the rest just believe it on authority.

Now Pantheism | Definition, Beliefs, History, & Facts explains the reality represented by the concept God, but science calls absolute reality the Universe, not God. I use either name based on context. And in the post that you quoted that began this whole exchange, I used the concept 'God' as equating with 'universe' in the context of an exchange of a religious nature, not scientific, which you obviously did not consider.

Lastly, scientific evidence for the reality represented by abstract concepts is available for the material universe, but not spiritual, and on that we agree because you have not yet any experience of spirit.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
You can do yoga & meditate on reality, and presume the concept of God, all you want, but a concept is merely an abstract idea, that cannot be real without evidence to support it. Meditations are not evidence.

And an unfounded concept is no different from personal opinion or personal belief, which still leave you concept of God that I don’t see as part of reality, the Universe, the “all there is” - and attributing reality with concept of God, is still a superstition.

How do define “concept“?

I defines it as being “idea”, hence abstract. It can be true or false, correct or incorrect. A concept without substance, without evidence, are no different from imagination, opinion or belief.

In my book, concepts are not real, until it has been tested & verified as being “probable”, which it isn’t, if you are meditating over the concept.


You can define a concept any way you like; you can define it out of existence if doing so comforts you in some way. Doing so changes little; nothing in God’s world is dependent on your definition, or your use of reason.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
Without conclusive evidence, what you describe as a brute fact is merely a personal conviction.
The question was not, "What is your personal conviction on the explanation for the universe." The question was "How could [the universe] exist without One G-d 's commandment for its existence, please, right?" Learn the difference between a conviction and a list. Sheesh.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Why Didn't the Universe Always Exist?
How could it exist without One G-d 's commandment for its existence, please, right?
By being a brute fact. By being the product of a brute fact where no god exists or has ever existed.
Without conclusive evidence, what you describe as a brute fact is merely a personal conviction.
Good ^ response of our friend RestlessSoul, right, please?

Regards
_______________
etymology of fact:

fact (n.)

1530s, "action, a thing performed, anything done, a deed," good or evil but in 16c.-17c. commonly "evil deed, crime;" from Latin factum "an event, occurrence, deed, achievement," in Medieval Latin also "state, condition, circumstance" (source also of Old French fait, Spanish hecho, Italian fatto), etymologically "a thing done," noun use of neuter of factus, past participle of facere "to do" (from PIE root *dhe- "to set, put").
An earlier adaptation of the Old French word that also became feat. The older senses are mostly obsolete but somewhat preserved in such phrases as after the fact, originally legal, "after the crime." Also compare matter-of-fact.
The modern, empirical, sense of "thing known to be true, a real state of things, what has really occurred or is actually the case," as distinguished from statement or belief, is from 1630s, from the notion of "something that has actually occurred." The particular concept of the scientific, empirical fact ("a truth known by observation or authentic testimony") emerged in English 1660s, via Hooke, Boyle, etc., in The Royal Society, as part of the creation of the modern vocabulary of knowledge (along with theory, hypothesis, etc.); in early 18c. it was associated with the philosophical writings of Hume. Middle English thus lacked the noun and the idea of it; the closest expression being perhaps thing proved (c.1500).
Hence facts "real state of things;" in fact "in reality" (1707). By 1729, fact was being used of "something presented as a fact but which might be or is false."
By fact is also often meant a true statement, a truth, or truth in general ; but this seems to be a mere inexactness of language .... Fact, as being special, is sometimes opposed to truth, as being universal ; and in such cases there is an implication that facts are minute matters ascertained by research, and often inferior in their importance for the formation of general opinions, or for the general description of phenomena, to other matters which are of familiar experience. [Century Dictionary]
Facts of life is by 1854 as "the stark realities of existence;" by 1913 it had also acquired a more specific sense of "knowledge of human sexual functions." The alliterative pairing of facts and figures for "precise information" is by 1727.
Facts and Figures are the most stubborn Evidences; they neither yield to the most persuasive Eloquence, nor bend to the most imperious Authority. [Abel Boyer, "The Political State of Great Britain," 1727]

Etymology of "brute":
brute (adj.)

early 15c., "of or belonging to animals, non-human," from Old French brut "coarse, brutal, raw, crude," from Latin brutus "heavy, dull, stupid, insensible, unreasonable" (source also of Spanish and Italian bruto), said to be an Oscan word, from PIE *gwruto-, suffixed form of root *gwere- (1) "heavy" (see de Vaan).
Before reaching English the meaning expanded to "of the lower animals." Used in English of human beings from 1530s, "wanting in reason, blunt or dull of sentiment, unintelligent." The sense in brute force (1736) is "irrational, purely material."
Brute ... remains nearest to the distinguishing difference between man and beast, irrationality .... Brutish is especially uncultured, stupid, groveling .... Brutal implies cruelty or lack of feeling: as brutal language or conduct. [Century Dictionary]
also from early 15c.

brute (n.)
1610s, "a beast" (as distinguished from a man), especially one of the higher quadrupeds, from brute (adj.). From 1660s as "a brutal person, a savage in disposition or manners."

also from 1610s
 

gnostic

The Lost One
You can define a concept any way you like; you can define it out of existence if doing so comforts you in some way. Doing so changes little; nothing in God’s world is dependent on your definition, or your use of reason.

Then look it up in either in dictionary or google it.

concept, New American Oxford Dictionary
noun
an abstract idea; a general notation​

Then you might look up what abstract means:

abstract, New American Oxford Dictionary
adjective
existing in thought, or as idea but not having physical or concrete existing​
relating to or denoting art that does not attempt to represent external reality, but rather seeks to achieve its effects with shapes, colors, and textures​

Wikipedia described concept a lot more, explaining more in details, but the bottom lines are, it can be either direct or indirect reality, or merely mental representation.

Whether the concept is true or not, whether it is accurate representation, depends on how far a person would try to prove it logically or externally with physical evidence. Is purely imaginary or real, depends on the person using concept.

@Ben Dhyan, who I have been debating with, believe that mere meditation, concept are more than real, but I have yet to seen any past or present master yogi actually formulating science treatise on the cosmology of the universe with any accuracy that modern astronomers & astrophysicists have done so far.

For astronomy & astrophysics, it has been long, ongoing learning process, where there have been mistakes or false leads, but the great things about either sciences, that people can learn from their mistakes.

Most religions have only described the world they lived in, especially ancient religions, never knew much about how much larger the universe is. What astronomers saw before the invention of telescopes, was merely some planets, moons, and about 2000 to 3000 stars in their given location (so whether you live at the equator or near equator, or further south or further north, hemisphere-wise) and depending on how good & clear the eyesight, they would only see the tiniest of fraction of the Milky Way, closest to Earth.

For centuries after Galileo, but before Edwin Hubble in 1919 to 1929, astronomers thought the Milky Way was the only galaxy, that Andromeda and other galaxies were mistakenly as identified and cataloged as nebulas.

As Ben is a pantheist with leaning towards more more easterly dharma religions, like Hinduism & Buddhism, than with the Abrahamic religions, then you would have to ask yourself, just much did the ancient Hindu or Buddhist astronomers really know about the universe?

Without even basic telescopes, not much at all. Eastern and western astronomers in ancient times, knew very little.

Ben Dhyan like to pretend that people that have mastered the meditation of yoga would know more about the universe than today with current knowledge supported be technology, but this is all anachronistic.

I am saying ancient astronomers were ignorants and idiots…no, they were simply just limited by what they can learn from their own eyes, just like everyone else back then.

It took times, for ancient people to reason that the Earth was spherical in shape, not flat like a disk or cylinder, that the earth wasn’t the centre of the celestial planetary system (geocentric vs heliocentric). It was the same with those astronomy in ancient India as well as well for ancient Greek astronomy. Both sides of the world in ancient times, really didn’t know where all the light and heat come from the Sun, no idea about Stellar Nucleosynthesis, until mid-20th century.

Instead, the Sun was personified as various deities in ancient religions, like the Ra in Egypt, Shamash in Babylonia, Heilios in Greece, Surya in India, and so on.

Until the mid-19th century, astronomy was often entwined with astrology, including India.

my understanding of the word concept, lies pretty much with definitions given, and it is clear to me, that Ben has taken the word out-of-context, he wanted more than the what the actually means, then perhaps he should use a different word.
 
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