Why Didn't the Universe Always Exist?

[TagliatelliMonster]

Why didn't the universe always exist? Because since God is supposed to be outside of time and is supposed to have always existed, then how could God have used a point in time to start creation? Any thoughts on this?

I know it ain't really helpful... but in a very real sense, the universe has always existed.

"Always" is a period of time. All of time, to be exact.
And the universe = the space-time continuum.

At any point in time, the universe existed. There is no point in time when the universe did not exist.

So yeah, the universe has in fact always existed.

My mind can't wrap itself around the implications of that.
But nevertheless, I don't see what is wrong with the logic presented above.

There is no point in time when the universe didn't exist.
Therefor, the universe always (=for all of time) existed.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I made no implication that any god did anything. I was asking if the universe would still exist in the absence of an experiencer.

Yes, why would you think otherwise?

This is kind of like the whole "if nobody is around when a tree falls, does it still make a noise?"

Well, yes... Why wouldn't it.

 

[Kenny]

 

[Brickjectivity]

No wonder my thread got transferred to Science and Religion. (Just joking.)

You can always ask in site feedback why a thread has been moved, however we don't just announce your business to everybody.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The 3.8 was a typo. I meant to say 13.8, which happens to be closer to your 15 to 20 billion speculation. And yes, I did watch your video about this, and I will admit that it was interesting..

One note that I forgot mention. One concept, that has been stated from certain Torath Mosheh discussions of the Torah is that before reality, as we understand it and experience it, was established there was no concept of past, present, or future.

It is seen as the part of the Torah (shown below) is what established the reality of past, present, and future as we experience it.

 

[shunyadragon]

Because God created nature, and nature is as such (to suffer for a short time).

'Suffering' in this context is an ancient anthropomorphic mythological attempt to explain why the physical existence from the human perspective that our existence is imperfect and not perfect as God Created.it before the Sin of Adam and Eve and the Fall. Our physical existence has always been as it is very natural, and the apparent suffering of life and humans is simple the nature of life on earth.

 

[shunyadragon]

But how could that even be possible if God is outside of time?

Dod could very well be outside our three dimensional/time nature of our universe just as the Quantum World underlies outside our three dimensional/time nature of our universe.

 

[MonkeyFire]

'Suffering' in this context is an ancient anthropomorphic mythological attempt to explain why the physical existence from the human perspective that our existence is imperfect and not perfect as God Created.it before the Sin of Adam and Eve and the Fall. Our physical existence has always been as it is very natural, and the apparent suffering of life and humans is simple the nature of life on earth.

The devil hurt the fallen angel, then mankind got involved, when God wanted St. Michael to handle it personally. This is what I call the falls of life, and it is so beautiful, as we all witness this nature first hand. Take it for what it is 2/3 good, knowledge of good and evil. This world is fallen from Eden, it is the natural domain to the fallen angels, who’s place it is to heal others, and be saved by God. These angels don’t keep falling they live in descent from God as divine healers, they are fallen from God giving them their place in the world, and a nature of their own.

 

[shunyadragon]

The devil hurt the fallen angel, then mankind got involved, when God wanted St. Michael to handle it personally. This is what I call the falls of life, and it is so beautiful, as we all witness this nature first hand. Take it for what it is 2/3 good, knowledge of good and evil. This world is fallen from Eden, it is the natural domain to the fallen angels, who’s place it is to heal others, and be saved by God. These angels don’t keep falling they live in descent from God as divine healers, they are fallen from God giving them their place in the world, and a nature of their own.

This remains an unfortunate ancient mythical primitive view of humanity that is not remotely relevant to our natural knowledge of the evolving nature of being human over the millennia. The description on the Bible as God Created a perfect world and humanity without suffering death and sin then ended with the sin of two individuals is pure unbelievable mythology evolved from Sumerian, and Canaanite legends..

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Why didn't the universe always exist? Because since God is supposed to be outside of time and is supposed to have always existed, then how could God have used a point in time to start creation? Any thoughts on this?

I don't think this question is answerable. We say the universe did not always exist, because science has determine it had a beginning, when time began. There is not way for us to imagine how this would be experienced by a being living in eternity, outside of time.

 

[shunyadragon]

I don't think this question is answerable. We say the universe did not always exist, because science has determine it had a beginning, when time began. There is not way for us to imagine how this would be experienced by a being living in eternity, outside of time.

Science has not determined that our universe nor our physical existence had a beginning.

 

[gnostic]

Why didn't the universe always exist?

You are referring to the Big Bang theory.

The Big Bang theory only focused on the evolution of the “Observable Universe” only, attempting to explain the following origins:

• The origin of all planets, stars, galaxies and other astronomical objects known to us today.
• The origins of fields & forces and of matters (eg atoms, molecules) and the known elementary particles as they are defined in the Standard Model in particle physics...plus the fundamentals connections & interactions between fields/forces and particles.
  • I need to add that the origins of atoms can be explained in the 1948’s model of the Big Bang in 3 stages:
  1. The Big Bang Nucleosynthesis (BBN) where the lightest elements formed (eg hydrogen, deuterium, helium & lithium atoms) without electrons bonding to these atoms.
  2. The Recombination Epoch explained how the universe became transparent for the first time, when the atoms became stable and electrical neutral with their bonding of electrons, and the energy released during decoupling of photons are the light observed as the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR).
  3. Elements heavier than lithium were formed by the stars, eg Stellar Nucleosynthesis & Supernova Nucleosynthesis.
• The universe has been expanding since the earliest stage (the Planck Epoch) when the universe was hotter and denser and more compact than it is, today.

The explanations of the current model of the Big Bang theory - the ΛCDM model (Lambda-CDM model) - formulated in the late 1990s, is the accumulation of the 3 previous models (models 1920s (eg gravitational redshift, the Hubble law), 1948 (eg BBN, CMBR), 1980s (the inflationary model)).

ΛCDM model included additional information extrapolated from observations and data (eg observations of the CMBR from WMAP & Planck missions) that the universe have been accelerating in expansion since about 4 billion years ago.

All models of the Big Bang theory, is based on the Observable Universe, and this universe as we know it began 13.798 billion years ago. The Big Bang models don’t go beyond the 13.798 billion years, but if you are interested in highly theoretical models of cosmology, than there are two models that speculate the universe being infinite in age:

1. The cyclical universe model, where the universe undergone a series of birth, death, rebirth, eg a series of expansion (Bang) and contraction (Crunch), where all the matters and particles get recycled;
2. the Multiverse model, where there are infinite numbers of universes.

There are lot more other models, but these two are the ones that proposed infinite or eternal universe.

The Multiverse model grew from the BB’s inflationary model (earlier 1980s).

But regardless of which alternative theoretical models you look at, they are speculative, and currently untestable.

 

[gnostic]

Abrahamic discussion of this subject matter seems to tend to revolve around variations of "god is the necessary uncreated creator who exists outside of both existence and time".

Myself, I find that notion remarkably pointless. Nothing more than an exercise at intentional obfuscation aiming to appease certain anxieties and the aesthetical demands that come with them.

In a nutshell: there are people who want very badly to believe that existence is a deliberate project by a conscious entity. It is not a matter of facts of reality, but of emotional need instead.

I don't know that it even makes any sense to speak of "creation of existence". The very idea is more than a bit self-contradictory.

The Abrahamic religions do express the needs for Creator deity in the creation, but only Christianity and Islam (and their respective offshoot), have these “to appease certain anxieties and the aesthetical demands”, that anxieties and the appeals being life after death, the afterlife.

They feared death, so like many other ancient and pagan religions before Christianity and Islam, the needs for the soul or spirits to live forever after the physical death.

That’s the fantasies of these two Abrahamic religions. They tried to tie the afterlife with creation.

Judaism don’t dwell on the afterlife.

 

[MonkeyFire]

This remains an unfortunate ancient mythical primitive view of humanity that is not remotely relevant to our natural knowledge of the evolving nature of being human over the millennia. The description on the Bible as God Created a perfect world and humanity without suffering death and sin then ended with the sin of two individuals is pure unbelievable mythology evolved from Sumerian, and Canaanite legends..

a millennia is not a long time if you have always been.

 

[shunyadragon]

a millennia is not a long time if you have always been.

In terms of human existence, hundreds of thousands of years at least, and billions of years of earth history, a few millennia is not very long.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Science has not determined that our universe nor our physical existence had a beginning.

Yes it has. It's called the big bang.

 

[shunyadragon]

Yes it has. It's called the big bang.

No it is not. There are a number of variations of the Big Bang Model and none represent tbe proposal that our universe had an absolute beginning. The current proposals range from our ubiverse originating from pre-existing matter and energy as a singularity in a Quantum World of a possible multiverse to other proposals such as a cyclic universe also in a Quantum World.

 

[David Davidovich]

This may either help, or confuse you.

View attachment 71470

There are some ancient Jewish sources that state that during Day One, not first day as is sometimes mistranslated, there were numerous realities that existed, ran their course, and then ceased over and over again until our current reality was established.

So, could you transliterate into English what the entire Hebrew text says at Genesis 1:1?

 

[rational experiences]

Men theists ask humans now give me spirit heavens terms of past now....as we redeveloped healed evolved.

I want you to give me the science advice.

Answer... it's not science it's evolution.

Natural.

No he says if I Understand it I can remove it first then put it back myself.

As I only want the reactive Jesus above moment first but last.

Humans tell him Jesus wasn't above first. Old man's cloud human animal images were.

By machines.

As theists they don't share that part of conscious terms they are expressing in forums. Their behaviour is I want first. Not it's just science.

As just science says my awareness says life now exists only by its own owned human evolution. And human sex owned all human bodies reasoned in the past as adult babies.

As the first adult human type is just dusts I can't study it.

 

[rational experiences]

No it is not. There are a number of variations of the Big Bang Model and none represent tbe proposal that our universe had an absolute beginning. The current proposals range from our ubiverse originating from pre-existing matter and energy as a singularity in a Quantum World of a possible multiverse to other proposals such as a cyclic universe also in a Quantum World.

Legal said all planets in the universe are named by man men agreed as gods. O held bodies to see.

Stars are scattered gods by a cold sun that exploded whilst cooling is universal. God made the stars as a God and a sun god. Two variables.

All within deep space one law.