Why Didn't the Universe Always Exist?

[Ben Dhyan]

The point is that this is happening and a part of reality.

For you, an observer's viewpoint, dualistic. For the religious practitioner, one indivisible reality, no parts, no distinctions.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

For you, an observer's viewpoint, dualistic. For the religious practitioner, one indivisible reality, no parts, no distinctions.

Yeah, it is different subjective belief systems. And, yes, I am religious, not just like you. You don't control what is religious.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

How do you know?

As far as I can see you have no way to distinguish what you call "non-duality" from reading something into a subjective experience and kidding yourself it's some insight into reality. Just like most religion or superstition, really.

In the state of non-duality, there is nothing to distinguish, all is one, and when the mind returns to the normal dualistic state, one just goes about doing what one normally does. When one has been practicing still mind meditation for many years, it is just life, there is nothing to sell, no one to convince.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Yeah, it is different subjective belief systems. And, yes, I am religious, not just like you. You don't control what is religious.

That's ok, good.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..what you are proposing is only based in your subjective desires..

..desires? No.
You believe in "what can be physically measured", but deny the suggestions of your imagination.
It makes no sense in my view, that 'time' has a cut-off point.

Philosophy explores concept generally, while physics explores 'what we can observe/measure' .
For me, science does not explain what 'reality' (our universe) is or where it came from.
In your view, as you cannot measure anything that is not part of that reality, you would
rather believe that 'where it came from' is invalid, and that time cannot be eternal.
i.e. that time is merely a 'component' of the universe and nothing more

Neither view can be categorically proved.
It is not a proof to suggest that scientific calculations based on a scientific definition of time
proves that time is not eternal. It is circular reasoning.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

..desires? No.
You believe in "what can be physically measured", but deny the suggestions of your imagination.
It makes no sense in my view, that 'time' has a cut-off point.

...

The question is if what makes sense to you, causes the universe as such to be in a manner that makes sense to you?
That is the problem of philosophical rationalism.
Now it might be so, but then you have to explain how it is you that causes the universe to be as it is and not me e.g.?

 

[ratiocinator]

In the state of non-duality, there is nothing to distinguish, all is one, and when the mind returns to the normal dualistic state, one just goes about doing what one normally does. When one has been practicing still mind meditation for many years, it is just life, there is nothing to sell, no one to convince.

So why are you on here criticising the science and telling us all we haven't answered your (meaningless in the context) questions?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

So why are you on here criticising the science and telling us all we haven't answered your (meaningless in the context) questions?

The OP asks the question, "why didn't the universe always exist", and it is clear to me it has always existed so my 2c worth is in. Criticism has sort of gone both ways if I'm not mistaken.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The OP asks the question, "why didn't the universe always exist", and it is clear to me it has always existed so my 2c worth is in. Criticism has sort of gone both ways if I'm not mistaken.

But why do you bother? You have no reason to be here, because there is nothing to gain in the duality as per this:
"In the state of non-duality, there is nothing to distinguish, all is one, and when the mind returns to the normal dualistic state, one just goes about doing what one normally does. When one has been practicing still mind meditation for many years, it is just life, there is nothing to sell, no one to convince."

 

[muhammad_isa]

Something has clearly changed to bring about the rapid scientific progress we are now experiencing. What do you think it was?

That is the topic of the history of civilizations .. they evolve, and rise and fall.

Why not? Science is perfectly capable of dealing with eternity. There is no "philosophical definition of time". There were several different philosophical ideas about time and they have been replaced by testable scientific enquiry.

Not replaced .. that is an unenlightened view .. a broad education leads to a different understanding.

When we have no scientific tools to investigate a subject, then philosophy is the only subject that can really consider it.

Scientific tools, as in what can be observed and measured.
We are more than a 'biological machine' .. we are able to understand a wide range of academia.
..but many people do not bother to explore other than science, believing that it is more relevant
than anything else .. that is partially the result of the education system, that prepares us for the job
market .. and our 'success' leads us to think that science has all the answers .. when it doesn't.

There is zero reason to believe that space and time have any meaning at all beyond this universe..

Ha! You seem to think yourself more intelligent than Einstein and Hawking.

Show us how alternative universes, (that behave differently to our current one), cannot possibly exist.
You can't !

 

[ratiocinator]

You believe in "what can be physically measured", but deny the suggestions of your imagination.

Imagination is unconstrained and can produce endless possibilities with no way to assess whether they bear any relation at all to reality or not. Just accepting imagination is absurd and would lead you into endless contradictions. I have no problem at all imagining different, and completely incompatible, possibilities, so how would I choose between them? And that's before I get to what other people are imagining.

It makes no sense in my view, that 'time' has a cut-off point.

So what? What makes you think that reality is under some sort of obligation to make sense to you?

In your view, as you cannot measure anything that is not part of that reality, you would
rather believe that 'where it came from' is invalid, and that time cannot be eternal.

There is no question of 'rather'. Liking an idea as a criterion for its acceptance seems to be your approach. And you're still not paying attention. The science does not say that time cannot be eternal (nobody has argued that it does), it just opens up other possibilities, including a start, but also things like it changing direction or being cyclical.

i.e. that time is merely a 'component' of the universe and nothing more

That's all we have any evidence for. Anything else is baseless imaginings (daydream or fantasy).

Neither view can be categorically proved.
It is not a proof to suggest that scientific calculations based on a scientific definition of time
proves that time is not eternal. It is circular reasoning.

Again PAY ATTENTION! Nobody is claiming proof or that time cannot be eternal.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..but then you have to explain how it is you that causes the universe to be as it is and not me e.g.?

No .. the universe is what we find ourselves in when we are born.
Our conscious mind is able to comprehend much more than our environment, and how it
behaves. Why?

..a product of evolution? In order to survive etc. ?
I think not.
Education enlightens .. it's more than worldly career and status .. if you allow it to be.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

But why do you bother? You have no reason to be here, because there is nothing to gain in the duality as per this:
"In the state of non-duality, there is nothing to distinguish, all is one, and when the mind returns to the normal dualistic state, one just goes about doing what one normally does. When one has been practicing still mind meditation for many years, it is just life, there is nothing to sell, no one to convince."

Oh, still mind meditation means that when there is no ego self present/active, it equates with psychological death. That is why it takes so many years of practice to properly still the mind to the degree a samadhi experience occurs, the ego-self fights to stay 'alive' and not cease thinking. I try to still my mind for many hours every day, so between meditation periods, I stimulate my mind with other activities, else I may actually slip away. I visit a few forums, etc..

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

No .. the universe is what we find ourselves in when we are born.
Our conscious mind is able to comprehend much more than our environment, and how it
behaves. Why?

..a product of evolution? In order to survive etc. ?
I think not.
Education enlightens .. it's more than worldly career and status .. if you allow it to be.

Well, you didn't answer. I am a skeptic and as such not a materialist or a believer in only the objective is real. But I am still not like you, just because we share that we do more than "just science".
So yes, you are not the only result of education enlightens.

 

[ratiocinator]

Not replaced .. that is an unenlightened view .. a broad education leads to a different understanding.

Nonsense. Science has taken over many questions that were previously entirely in the domain of speculation and philosophy. Conclusions beased on evidence and testing are always better than baseless speculation.

Ha! You seem to think yourself more intelligent than Einstein and Hawking.

Please do feel free to cite something by these people that I've disagreed with.

Show us how alternative universes, (that behave differently to our current one), cannot possibly exist.
You can't !

I didn't say I could.

You seem to be very confused. There are things for which we have direct evidence, there are things that we can conclude from reasonable extrapolations of what we have evidence for, there are scientific conjectures, that are based on speculations about as yet unknown mechanisms (in this case, like how GR and QFT might be united, e.g. String Theory or Loop Quantum Gravity), and there is pure fantasy based on nothing but what we would like to be true or personally find 'reasonable'. The last being what appears to be your own approach...

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Oh, still mind meditation means that when there is no ego self present/active, it equates with psychological death. That is why it takes so many years of practice to properly still the mind to the degree a samadhi experience occurs, the ego-self fights to stay 'alive' and not cease thinking. I try still my mind for many hours every day, so between meditation periods, I stimulate my mind with other activities, else I may actually slip away. I visit a few forums, etc..

So why do you continue to try to sell us your truth?
"..., it is just life, there is nothing to sell, no one to convince."

 

[ratiocinator]

The OP asks the question, "why didn't the universe always exist", and it is clear to me it has always existed...

So you're claiming some kind of magical insight not available to us mere mortals....?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I have no problem at all imagining different, and completely incompatible, possibilities, so how would I choose between them?

Experience, of course .. thought, and a process of elimination .. common sense.

So what? What makes you think that reality is under some sort of obligation to make sense to you?

That's a pointless question.
If we had no way of determining for ourselves "what makes sense to us", we would be
blind followers of others. My mind tells me to have the courage of my convictions .. and never
to stop learning i.e. correct our mistaken assumptions etc.

The science does not say that time cannot be eternal (nobody has argued that it does)..

Some in this thread have done, but you think that 'before the big-bang' makes sense .. OK.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

So why do you continue to try to sell us your truth?
"..., it is just life, there is nothing to sell, no one to convince."

I'm not selling you anything, it is a free gift to take or not.

Settle your mind, find peace, the constant chatter is the monkey mind, won't stop!

 

[Ben Dhyan]

So you're claiming some kind of magical insight not available to us mere mortals....?

Just saying what is true from my understanding, my 2c.