Why Didn't the Universe Always Exist?

[Ben Dhyan]

No, there was no obfuscation on his part. And no, the North Star is not always north. It is very close to True North, but it is not exactly at True North. That means there is a part of the world where following the North Star would take you away from the North Pole.

Thank you SZ, you have supported what I have been trying to convey to Polymath and Pogo, that the Earth's spin axis can be extended beyond the actual North and South Poles in the respective north and south directions to the north and south celestial poles.

Polymath and Pogo have argued that my implying there is a north or south direction beyond the north and south poles is incorrect.

I k

 

[YoursTrue]

No, there was no obfuscation on his part. And no, the North Star is not always north. It is very close to True North, but it is not exactly at True North. That means there is a part of the world where following the North Star would take you away from the North Pole.

It's a bunch of baloney to wonder what's north of north and south of south. Etc and so forth.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

It's a bunch of baloney to wonder what's north of north and south of south. Etc and so forth.

Is not the North Celestial Pole in the direction of north? Why else would it be called North Celestial Pole?

 

[YoursTrue]

No, death is and always has been part of life. That does not mean the people cannot judge the Genesis myth and see if God was evil in his actions or not in that story. Do you understand that?

Here's what I understand, if you'd like to know but I'll tell you anyway. Most people do not look forward to death. Animals, and for the sake of this discussion, I hope you can understand that I firmly believe that humans are not animals, so...animals do not prepare in advance for funerals, they don't wonder where they'll "go" when they die. They don't wonder about their souls or think about Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and more. I don't like to write long posts, so I'm pretty sure you will have a comment about that.

 

[YoursTrue]

Is not the North Celestial Pole in the direction of north? Why else would it be called North Celestial Pole?

Haha very funny...I guess we need directions like that for clarity. If I go east long enough I may do a complete circle.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Thank you SZ, you have supported what I have been trying to convey to Polymath and Pogo, that the Earth's spin axis can be extended beyond the actual North and South Poles in the respective north and south directions to the north and south celestial poles.

Polymath and Pogo have argued that my implying there is a north or south direction beyond the north and south poles is incorrect.

I k

You weren't listening again.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Here's what I understand, if you'd like to know but I'll tell you anyway. Most people do not look forward to death. Animals, and for the sake of this discussion, I hope you can understand that I firmly believe that humans are not animals, so...animals do not prepare in advance for funerals, they don't wonder where they'll "go" when they die. They don't wonder about their souls or think about Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and more. I don't like to write long posts, so I'm pretty sure you will have a comment about that.

Humans are not animals? Do you seriously think that you are a fungus? Hmmm, nope . . . better not go there.

And yes, other animals fear death too. They do not "plan" for it since they lack that ability. Before civilization man was not able to plan for death. This is just one more of your pointless arguments.

 

[YoursTrue]

Haha very funny...I guess we need directions like that for clarity. If I go east long enough I may do a complete circle.

P.S. it isn't considered south of the North Pole...or is it. Wait a minute, I don't like philosophical discussions. There was an old song with the words "ha ha thisaway, haha thataway..." I like that better ..

 

[YoursTrue]

Humans are not animals? Do you seriously think that you are a fungus? Hmmm, nope . . . better not go there.

And yes, other animals fear death too. They do not "plan" for it since they lack that ability. Before civilization man was not able to plan for death. This is just one more of your pointless arguments.

Yeah? Like you know all that? Here now try to understand if you will...IT DOESN'T MATTER about what you call civilization. This is not civilization unless you think murder and war is civilized. But that's not my point. Animals have an instinct of self-preservation. They don't dwell on it. Worry about it. When an animal is ready to die, he just usually lays down and dies. What I am going to say now may not jibe well with you but here it is...even flesh eating animals depend on those animals who must eat plants. Perhaps later but it's been nice talking with you.

 

[YoursTrue]

Humans are not animals? Do you seriously think that you are a fungus? Hmmm, nope . . . better not go there.

And yes, other animals fear death too. They do not "plan" for it since they lack that ability. Before civilization man was not able to plan for death. This is just one more of your pointless arguments.

Let's not get started again with plant life maybe coming from different bombings of meteors or combination of elements dead or alive and animal life coming from...uh... let's see...abiogenesis and/or some other dead or live cell. Or bombardment. That's not the subject now anyway. Naturally you will agree with the general scientific consensus that humans are animals. However, I am not putting humans in the animals category. Meantime, as I said, humans ALONE contract with funeral homes in advance ... or after, depending on situation. Humans ALONE have written tomes about what happens when we die -- pondering over what happens to the "soul," which many misunderstand to be something that lives forever in heaven or -- what's south of it -- haha, just a little joke there...

 

[YoursTrue]

Is not the North Celestial Pole in the direction of north? Why else would it be called North Celestial Pole?

It depends, doesn't it, from where I would be looking. I used to think when I was a little girl and went to the beach that if I dug deep enough in the sand I'd get to China. I found a lot of sand crabs little buggers though, that crawled out of the sand holes. Never did get to China that way.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

It depends, doesn't it, from where I would be looking. I used to think when I was a little girl and went to the beach that if I dug deep enough in the sand I'd get to China. I found a lot of sand crabs little buggers though, that crawled out of the sand holes. Never did get to China that way.

I've been only thinking of this in the context of the Earth's spin axis, which, when it intersects with the Earth's surface going in the north direction is labeled North Pole, and in the south direction is labeled South Pole. Further along the axis in both directions, it may get labeled Celestial North and South Poles.

But yes, when you up and running in your fully functioning spiritual body, I imagine it possible to travel to China through the Earth, just you weren't ready for it then.

 

[YoursTrue]

I've been only thinking of this in the context of the Earth's spin axis, which, when it intersects with the Earth's surface going in the north direction is labeled North Pole, and in the south direction is labeled South Pole. Further along the axis in both directions, it may get labeled Celestial North and South Poles.

But yes, when you up and running in your fully functioning spiritual body, I imagine it possible to travel to China through the Earth, just you weren't ready for it then.

Haha, very funny, and plus I hope not.

 

[muhammad_isa]

What information? If there is alternative science there..

No, not science .. philosophy .. but that's all nonsense to you, right?

 

[ratiocinator]

Anything and everything .. you may limit yourself, but I don't.

That's meaningless. You've made up an idea about time, how do you tell if it's nothing but fantasy or if it's likely to be true? You can't test it against how good your breakfast tasted....

 

[muhammad_isa]

What other forms of evidence do you propose?

You don't need me to tell you that .. do your own 'homework' .. I've made many longer posts
in this thread, and I'm basically told that anything other than physical science is not acceptable.
What a narrow-minded approach.

Aesthetics is not determined by science. The difference is that those are not forms of *knowledge*, but rather of shared opinions..

That's how materialists view it .. they feel that physical, scientific knowledge is somehow more reliable than anything else, which is false, imo.
One can be methodical in a variety of academic disciplines, and don't forget that many
conclusions of physical science use statistical analysis and are not binary.

In fact, statistics are often employed to convince us that 'black is white'.
..as many people are not statisticians, they get fooled.

 

[ratiocinator]

I've been only thinking of this in the context of the Earth's spin axis, which, when it intersects with the Earth's surface going in the north direction is labeled North Pole, and in the south direction is labeled South Pole. Further along the axis in both directions, it may get labeled Celestial North and South Poles.

And in doing so you are spectacularly missing the point.

The point of the analogy is that we are comparing the surface of the Earth with space-time, and lines of longitude with time directions. They all 'terminate' at the North Pole because you can't go further north (on the surface). The comparison is between north and past.

The point really is that we wouldn't look at the North Pole to find out why the surface of the Earth exists because it all exists anyway. That's the kind of picture we get of space-time. The manifold just is. The past is directions through it, that might (if the conclusion of GR is correct) terminate but that is not going to tell you why it exists.

Similarly, causation is something that can only make sense within space-time, so looking for a cause at the start of the time directions is also nonsensical.

 

[muhammad_isa]

That's meaningless..

Believe what you like .. I, for one, am not fooled by the deception.

I am not prepared to discuss with you any longer..
I'll quote your reply to me some time ago:-
"And people should care about your uninformed, unjustified opinion because.......?"

 

[RestlessSoul]

No, my understanding is that there was simply no before the BB, just like there is no south of the South Pole.

There is no south of the South Pole, on the two dimensional surface of the three dimensional object that is the earth. The analogy only works in two dimensions; the earth’s electromagnetic field obeys no such constraints.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

And in doing so you are spectacularly missing the point.

The point of the analogy is that we are comparing the surface of the Earth with space-time, and lines of longitude with time directions. They all 'terminate' at the North Pole because you can't go further north (on the surface). The comparison is between north and past.

The point really is that we wouldn't look at the North Pole to find out why the surface of the Earth exists because it all exists anyway. That's the kind of picture we get of space-time. The manifold just is. The past is directions through it, that might (if the conclusion of GR is correct) terminate but that is not going to tell you why it exists.

Similarly, causation is something that can only make sense within space-time, so looking for a cause at the start of the time directions is also nonsensical.

Let me get this straight, because the lines of longitude converge at the North Pole, you can't travel further north on the surface of the planet.

Ok, I get that!

Because a human being cannot travel on the surface of the planet any further north than the North Pole, it is analogous to why there is no time before the BB.

No, I don't get that!