Why Didn't the Universe Always Exist?

[YoursTrue]

@Subduction Zone many are on drugs and overdosing to "get away from it all."

 

[muhammad_isa]

There is no other kind of evidence..

..oh, but there is .. Evidence - Wikipedia
It's not limited to physical, scientific evidence.

Yes, but knowledge is only acquired empirically as just described. Other ideas are not knowledge.

That is your philosophical position i.e. opinion

Wisdom come from experience..

Right .. but is not limited to .. our lives are a lot more complex than that.
You might consider psychologists to follow unfounded, unproven theory, but we
all think differently, have different experiences .. and most importantly, have varying intention
behind all that we say and do.

 

[YoursTrue]

You are incorrect. Human animals have funerals.

Your religion teaches you to see the world so darkly. You and I live in the same world, but you see in the most pessimistic of terms like the Jehovah's Witnesses I told you about recently, who didn't know what to say to me after I told them what I'm telling you - I simply didn't agree with them. So they said thank you and left.

I know that the world has a lot of unhappiness in it, but there are millions of people living safe, comfortable, relatively easy lives full of love and beauty, and I'll bet that you're one of them like I am, but you see it only in terms of corruption and greed and disparage civilization because for you, that's all it is.

I'll bet that greed and corruption don't define your days. I'll bet that you have people and/or pets that you love and love you in return. I'll bet that you enjoy flowers and sunsets, and maybe a garden. I'll bet that you eat food you enjoy. I'll bet that you have labor saving devices that wash your clothes and dishes for you, a car, and an air conditioner if you live where it gets hot. I'll bet that you have a roof over your head, and that people stock your grocery stores for you, pick up your garbage, and deliver your mail.

I'm guessing, of course, but I just described the way millions or billions of lives are lived, and even if some of that is wrong, lake maybe you don't have a car or a garden, it's by choice.

That's also civilization, yet you disparage it and define your life in terms of violence, corruption, and greed despite having relatively few brushes with any of those.

Thanks for noticing.

We all are. That's our reality. We perceive consciousness as a subject observing itself and the varied, changing phenomena of consciousness—such as sights, impulses, and moral imperatives—as we move through time.

There will always be an inherent duality in consciousness, a feeling that 'this is me, here and now,' and 'that is an external part of nature, not the self,' along with times that are not the present (past or future).

What do you say - and please try to be as specific and concrete as you can - is the benefit of thinking more about that. I found nothing up that avenue of meditative pursuit. I read repeatedly about people trying to transcend dualistic thought, and I have no idea what it is they are pursuing or why. Why do you spend time trying the collapse that dualistic experience of self and other?

I asked AI that question: "The benefit of contemplating the transcendence of dualistic thought lies in achieving a more integrated perspective. It is not about rejecting one side of a duality but about understanding and balancing both to perceive the whole. This pursuit aims to resolve the dissonance caused by seeing the self and others as separate, which can lead to a more harmonious and unified experience of existence."]

That's the kind of answer that I'm used to, and which says nothing specific to me. What dissonance in seeing self and other as subject and object? What more harmonious and unified experience?

True. But so what? All a model or mental map need do is help one achieve his goals. There is no value in dwelling over what's actually on the other side of consciousness out there, because we can't have experience of it except through consciousness' lens. If the model works, we stick with it.

Consider racecar arcade games, where players turn a wheel and press foot pedals to mimic driving. It's easy to momentarily forget that one is not actually in a car, and the wheel in hand doesn't control real tires on the pavement. At that moment, the mental model is of an actual car; it's incorrect but serves its purpose. When the player steers right, the scene shifts accordingly, just as it would in a real vehicle. If a tree looms ahead, he swerves, avoiding an 'accident' in the simulation. The illusion only shatters if the tree isn't dodged, ending the game without real-world consequences. As long as the experience aligns with expectations, the model suffices, no matter how much it diverges from reality.

This concept extends to everyday life. What if reality isn't as it seems?

Numerous hypotheses speculate on the true nature beyond our conscious awareness, such as Boltzmann brains, simulated realities, brains in vats, and last Thursdayism. Echoing Descartes, we can be certain of nothing but the existence of our experiences, and I would add, the rules to manipulate them for future outcomes. For instance:

Suppose you discovered for an indisputable fact that the world outside was an illusion. Nevertheless, you still see your hand and finger and a flame on a candle. It's not real, you think, and stick your imagined finger into the imagined flame, it burns and hurts, you imagine that you quickly withdrew you imagined finger from that imagined flame, and the pain ends. Are you going to do it again, or just go back to the old rules that always worked before and still work now?

Probably not, and that's the point. The crux of the matter is that the accuracy of our models isn't always ascertainable; their utility lies in their functionality. If a model works, it's considered useful.

All we need to know is that we have desires and preferences, we make decisions, and we experience sensory perceptions of outcomes. When a person holds belief B that a particular action A will lead to a desired outcome D, and outcome D reliably follows action A, we regard belief B as true, correct, or knowledge. We can't know and for that reason needn't ponder for long what exists beyond the realm of consciousness.

Let me put it to you this way (scientifically): psychiatrists have a high rate of suicide, yet they give drugs to people to cope with their problems, hmm? Suicide Rates Among Psychiatrists.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You are dealing with "my first dictionary", that the relevant definitions are not there is not our problem nor the saving of your philosophy.

I am dealing with reality itself, not definitions of reality.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Is a pretty good explanation of the analogy to a 4 dimensional manifold but it is not working in your case because you don't have the background to understand the oops 2 dimensional properties of the surface of a sphere that are being used as the source reference and are stuck in a Cartesian / Newtonian understanding.

The analogy does not work for me period for whatever reason, and it does not matter, existence has always existed, there was never a beginning, nor will there ever be an ending. Only material things have beginnings and endings.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You are incorrect. Human animals have funerals.

Your religion teaches you to see the world so darkly. You and I live in the same world, but you see in the most pessimistic of terms like the Jehovah's Witnesses I told you about recently, who didn't know what to say to me after I told them what I'm telling you - I simply didn't agree with them. So they said thank you and left.

I know that the world has a lot of unhappiness in it, but there are millions of people living safe, comfortable, relatively easy lives full of love and beauty, and I'll bet that you're one of them like I am, but you see it only in terms of corruption and greed and disparage civilization because for you, that's all it is.

I'll bet that greed and corruption don't define your days. I'll bet that you have people and/or pets that you love and love you in return. I'll bet that you enjoy flowers and sunsets, and maybe a garden. I'll bet that you eat food you enjoy. I'll bet that you have labor saving devices that wash your clothes and dishes for you, a car, and an air conditioner if you live where it gets hot. I'll bet that you have a roof over your head, and that people stock your grocery stores for you, pick up your garbage, and deliver your mail.

I'm guessing, of course, but I just described the way millions or billions of lives are lived, and even if some of that is wrong, lake maybe you don't have a car or a garden, it's by choice.

That's also civilization, yet you disparage it and define your life in terms of violence, corruption, and greed despite having relatively few brushes with any of those.

Thanks for noticing.

We all are. That's our reality. We perceive consciousness as a subject observing itself and the varied, changing phenomena of consciousness—such as sights, impulses, and moral imperatives—as we move through time.

There will always be an inherent duality in consciousness, a feeling that 'this is me, here and now,' and 'that is an external part of nature, not the self,' along with times that are not the present (past or future).

What do you say - and please try to be as specific and concrete as you can - is the benefit of thinking more about that. I found nothing up that avenue of meditative pursuit. I read repeatedly about people trying to transcend dualistic thought, and I have no idea what it is they are pursuing or why. Why do you spend time trying the collapse that dualistic experience of self and other?

I asked AI that question: "The benefit of contemplating the transcendence of dualistic thought lies in achieving a more integrated perspective. It is not about rejecting one side of a duality but about understanding and balancing both to perceive the whole. This pursuit aims to resolve the dissonance caused by seeing the self and others as separate, which can lead to a more harmonious and unified experience of existence."]

That's the kind of answer that I'm used to, and which says nothing specific to me. What dissonance in seeing self and other as subject and object? What more harmonious and unified experience?

True. But so what? All a model or mental map need do is help one achieve his goals. There is no value in dwelling over what's actually on the other side of consciousness out there, because we can't have experience of it except through consciousness' lens. If the model works, we stick with it.

Consider racecar arcade games, where players turn a wheel and press foot pedals to mimic driving. It's easy to momentarily forget that one is not actually in a car, and the wheel in hand doesn't control real tires on the pavement. At that moment, the mental model is of an actual car; it's incorrect but serves its purpose. When the player steers right, the scene shifts accordingly, just as it would in a real vehicle. If a tree looms ahead, he swerves, avoiding an 'accident' in the simulation. The illusion only shatters if the tree isn't dodged, ending the game without real-world consequences. As long as the experience aligns with expectations, the model suffices, no matter how much it diverges from reality.

This concept extends to everyday life. What if reality isn't as it seems?

Numerous hypotheses speculate on the true nature beyond our conscious awareness, such as Boltzmann brains, simulated realities, brains in vats, and last Thursdayism. Echoing Descartes, we can be certain of nothing but the existence of our experiences, and I would add, the rules to manipulate them for future outcomes. For instance:

Suppose you discovered for an indisputable fact that the world outside was an illusion. Nevertheless, you still see your hand and finger and a flame on a candle. It's not real, you think, and stick your imagined finger into the imagined flame, it burns and hurts, you imagine that you quickly withdrew you imagined finger from that imagined flame, and the pain ends. Are you going to do it again, or just go back to the old rules that always worked before and still work now?

Probably not, and that's the point. The crux of the matter is that the accuracy of our models isn't always ascertainable; their utility lies in their functionality. If a model works, it's considered useful.

All we need to know is that we have desires and preferences, we make decisions, and we experience sensory perceptions of outcomes. When a person holds belief B that a particular action A will lead to a desired outcome D, and outcome D reliably follows action A, we regard belief B as true, correct, or knowledge. We can't know and for that reason needn't ponder for long what exists beyond the realm of consciousness.

The benefit of realizing the oneness of existence is to transcend the ego self, not to attain any benefit for it. The ego self has to be sacrificed for the soul/spiritual Self to manifest.

 

[YoursTrue]

The analogy does not work for me period for whatever reason, and it does not matter, existence has always existed, there was never a beginning, nor will there ever be an ending. Only material things have beginnings and endings.

It is possible that the One (God) who always existed can give ability to a material person to keep living without an end. I think that is possible for more than one reason, but because -- that is what the Bible indicates. Those blessed by God will never die. Luke 18: 29“Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times more in this age— and in the age to come, eternal life.”

 

[Subduction Zone]

Sorry but you are sadly very wrong and off base. People can be greedy to the extent of killing others, ruining the atmosphere, being very selfish. So long for now...

How am I wrong? None of what you posted goes against my claim. <sigh> Just another "So what?" argument.

 

[Subduction Zone]

@Subduction Zone many are on drugs and overdosing to "get away from it all."

And another "So what?" argument. You need to do better than to post random facts that only elicit a "So what?"

 

[Sargonski]

What information? If there is alternative science there and there is, it is being studied, but you have not presented any, only vague ideas that there is something out there.

The wiki suggestion was not the greatest idea .. nor support for claim .. otherwise we would all just say "just go to wiki" every time we are stuck in a position and have no valid argument out.

Rather than "alternative science" .. I suggest one can find "Something out there" by using the Science .. with the help of philosophic reason.

The first 'Major Problem - with folks claiming "proof for God" .. or "Something out there" - is that they have not defined what God might be .. and worse .. when pressed for definition will blurt out "The God of Everything" .. which is not a definition .. and turns out to be a fallacy.

If I define God as "the Wind" .. or better yet "The Sun" which many a human has done .. Look up in the Sky .. God exists .. and in deed this is the God of Creation of man .. and everything else living .. without which .. we would never have come into existence. This is obviously quite a polytheistic universe as you will notice there are may other Gods out there Suns .. lets just call them Sons of God for Fun.

now how about we will make the definition more difficult .. this thing must have awareness of itself -- "Like US" - and have God-like Powers .. such as hurling thunderbolts around or moving a chair though force of Will .

If you encounted such an entity --- whould you claim this entity was a God ? .. at least a lesser one ? allowing for the possibility of more powerfull Gods ?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The benefit of realizing the oneness of existence is to transcend the ego self, not to attain any benefit for it. The ego self has to be sacrificed for the soul/spiritual Self to manifest.

That's just more of that vague language that doesn't seem to be referring to anything at all.

For starters, why do that if there is no benefit? And exactly what are you saying with that second sentence? It sounds like a Chinese fortune cookie or a horoscope to me - vague.

What soul? What spirit? Have yours "manifested" (whatever that means)? If you think so, what actual concrete things have happened in your life that tell you that such a thing has happened but doesn't happen in a life like mine that ignores all of that? Do you think that you've had a valuable experience not available to me? If so, what is it?

What I'm telling you is that I keep reading vague and nonspecific things like your answer there and have decided that there must be nothing to all of this not a single advocate of these ideas can produce anything to make me think that these aren't all just words that correspond t nothing real or valuable.

What I'm seeking is an answer for why some people spend so much time on these matters - hours a day for years - and I not only find no benefit there myself, the people doing this can't say a single thing that makes me think that they are benefiting from it. You've actually said that there is no benefit.

That is your philosophical position i.e. opinion

I wrote, "but knowledge is only acquired empirically as just described. Other ideas are not knowledge." Yes, that is my understanding. But more importantly, you haven't tried to rebut it. I suspect that's because you can't. You want to imply that there is more and dismiss my claim that there isn't with the wave of a hand, but like so many others, you can produce no effective counterargument or produce a counterexample.

I'm quite convinced that all of this is people fooling themselves about spiritual truth and the soul manifesting. What puzzles me is why they do it. What do they get out of it? I find a dead end there.

You misunderstand. Humans may have funerals depending on circumstances . Animals do not contact life insurance agents and pay premiums up front. Only some humans do.

I think YOU misunderstood. You were implying that humans were not animals because they have funerals. I answered that humans are animals that have funerals. Having funerals and buying life insurance doesn't make human beings not animals.

I find it very sad and tragic that you do not see this world corrupted by violence and greed.

You misunderstood me again. I didn't say that violence and greed don't exist. What I said is that civilization and life are much more than that, and in my case, and I suspect yours as well (which I elaborated on but you disregarded), those two play a very small role in my life.

I don't expect to disabuse you of that oppressive worldview. Your clergy taught it to you, and you trust them much more than me. Even if you can't benefit from my words, perhaps others can.

many are on drugs and overdosing to "get away from it all."

OK. So what? Many are not overdosing.

let me put it to you this way (scientifically): psychiatrists have a high rate of suicide, yet they give drugs to people to cope with their problems

Again, how is this relevant? Maybe what you're telling me is that these are the only kinds of things you see in the world - that you never see kindness or happiness or success or love. You never mention any of these things, only violence, greed, corruption, overdosing, and suicide.

As for me, it's a very different reality for this atheistic, agnostic humanist. I don't think about the only things that you seem to think about much at all. None of those things have much presence in my life. My world is characterized by hope and optimism, by love and beauty - but maybe that's because I don't have a religion telling me how terrible life is or why I need it to escape life's omnipresent horrors.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

It is possible that the One (God) who always existed can give ability to a material person to keep living without an end. I think that is possible for more than one reason, but because -- that is what the Bible indicates. Those blessed by God will never die. Luke 18: 29“Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times more in this age— and in the age to come, eternal life.”

My understanding is that certainly there will always be material human beings, but no one human material body can be immortal. Immortality goes with becoming a spiritual being, ie., being born of the spirit, and to do that, one must give up their mortality. I am sure that some JW souls, while having the expectation and belief in the immortality of the body while alive, will be pleasantly surprised to find themselves after death, spiritually immortal (presuming they have realized being born of the spirit).

I mean I can't imagine the horror of having to exist in a physical body forever, peeing and pooing and smelly toilets every day forever, yuck!

 

[YoursTrue]

My understanding is that certainly there will always be material human beings, but no one human material body can be immortal. Immortality goes with becoming a spiritual being, ie., being born of the spirit, and to do that, one must give up their mortality. I am sure that some JW souls, while having the expectation and belief in the immortality of the body while alive, will be pleasantly surprised to find themselves after death, spiritually immortal (presuming they have realized being born of the spirit).

I mean I can't imagine the horror of having to exist in a physical body forever, peeing and pooing and smelly toilets every day forever, yuck!

The recognition of immortality (that which CANNOT die) and the ability like Adam and Eve had to live forever but they could die, and they did die, is different.

 

[YoursTrue]

My understanding is that certainly there will always be material human beings, but no one human material body can be immortal. Immortality goes with becoming a spiritual being, ie., being born of the spirit, and to do that, one must give up their mortality. I am sure that some JW souls, while having the expectation and belief in the immortality of the body while alive, will be pleasantly surprised to find themselves after death, spiritually immortal (presuming they have realized being born of the spirit).

I mean I can't imagine the horror of having to exist in a physical body forever, peeing and pooing and smelly toilets every day forever, yuck!

That question was asked in the Bible, I can't remember the exact scripture but -- it was something like 'why did you make us this way"/ And the answer was about the potter and the clay. Who are we to say to the Potter, why did you make us this way? Here is one reference: Isaiah 64:8 -
New International Version
"Yet you, LORD, are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand."
I know few of us really want to die.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

That's just more of that vague language that doesn't seem to be referring to anything at all.

For starters, why do that if there is no benefit? And exactly what are you saying with that second sentence? It sounds like a Chinese fortune cookie or a horoscope to me - vague.

What soul? What spirit? Have yours "manifested" (whatever that means)? If you think so, what actual concrete things have happened in your life that tell you that such a thing has happened but doesn't happen in a life like mine that ignores all of that? Do you think that you've had a valuable experience not available to me? If so, what is it?

What I'm telling you is that I keep reading vague and nonspecific things like your answer there and have decided that there must be nothing to all of this not a single advocate of these ideas can produce anything to make me think that these aren't all just words that correspond t nothing real or valuable.

What I'm seeking is an answer for why some people spend so much time on these matters - hours a day for years - and I not only find no benefit there myself, the people doing this can't say a single thing that makes me think that they are benefiting from it. You've actually said that there is no benefit.

I wrote, "but knowledge is only acquired empirically as just described. Other ideas are not knowledge." Yes, that is my understanding. But more importantly, you haven't tried to rebut it. I suspect that's because you can't. You want to imply that there is more and dismiss my claim that there isn't with the wave of a hand, but like so many others, you can produce no effective counterargument or produce a counterexample.

I'm quite convinced that all of this is people fooling themselves about spiritual truth and the soul manifesting. What puzzles me is why they do it. What do they get out of it? I find a dead end there.

I think YOU misunderstood. You were implying that humans were not animals because they have funerals. I answered that humans are animals that have funerals. Having funerals and buying life insurance doesn't make human beings not animals.

You misunderstood me again. I didn't say that violence and greed don't exist. What I said is that civilization and life are much more than that, and in my case, and I suspect yours as well (which I elaborated on but you disregarded), those two play a very small role in my life.

I don't expect to disabuse you of that oppressive worldview. Your clergy taught it to you, and you trust them much more than me. Even if you can't benefit from my words, perhaps others can.

OK. So what? Many are not overdosing.

Again, how is this relevant? Maybe what you're telling me is that these are the only kinds of things you see in the world - that you never see kindness or happiness or success or love. You never mention any of these things, only violence, greed, corruption, overdosing, and suicide.

As for me, it's a very different reality for this atheistic, agnostic humanist. I don't think about the only things that you seem to think about much at all. None of those things have much presence in my life. My world is characterized by hope and optimism, by love and beauty - but maybe that's because I don't have a religion telling me how terrible life is or why I need it to escape life's omnipresent horrors.

It is about the manifestation/incarnation/evolution of God through the elemental, mineral, plant, animal, human, angelic, archangelic, etc., kingdoms to realize Itself. At the end of evolutionary unfoldment, one realises one is God. God/Existence is expressing itself through all things, and awareness has unfolded to a lessor or greater extent according to the evolutionary state, The human soul cannot become an angel without giving up its desire to be a human.

The purpose of religious practice is to give up worldly desires to discover the underlying spiritual nature of being. It requires many incarnations in the human kingdom to become an immortal angelic being. The world is presently near a judgement where there will be many human souls becoming immortals, and likewise many atheists who will have failed this time around and have to repeat. There is no hell per se, but reincarnating repeatedly in smelly frail bodies will eventually cause the respective souls to dig a little deeper and begin to discover what and who they really are in the context of all existence/God.

 

[YoursTrue]

My understanding is that certainly there will always be material human beings, but no one human material body can be immortal. Immortality goes with becoming a spiritual being, ie., being born of the spirit, and to do that, one must give up their mortality. I am sure that some JW souls, while having the expectation and belief in the immortality of the body while alive, will be pleasantly surprised to find themselves after death, spiritually immortal (presuming they have realized being born of the spirit).

I mean I can't imagine the horror of having to exist in a physical body forever, peeing and pooing and smelly toilets every day forever, yuck!

Romans 9:20, it helps me comprehend more --
But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”
Life in the future will be different. I'm not going to be explicit about this because I hope to experience life in the future, and we don't exactly know what it will be like, but I can say that there are so many things to enjoy now, or at least ponder over the wonderment of life, and I can understand to a reasonable degree what God meant when he told Adam to take care of the earth and subdue it. Adam, of course, lost that chance when he was banished from the Garden and lost his close relationship with God as his teacher. But I believe that is yet to come.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

The recognition of immortality (that which CANNOT die) and the ability like Adam and Eve had to live forever but they could die, and they did die, is different.

Adam and Eve are not personal names, Adam means red clay representing the creation of man from clay/minerals. It was the breath of God into the red clay body that made the clay/Adam a living soul.

It is the soul of the clay body that God gave to the clay body that becomes immortal when it sufficiently understands what it is in the context of God. So long as the soul incarnate does not know its potential to exist outside the body, it must reincarnate until it does understand what and who it is in the context of all existence.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

That question was asked in the Bible, I can't remember the exact scripture but -- it was something like 'why did you make us this way"/ And the answer was about the potter and the clay. Who are we to say to the Potter, why did you make us this way? Here is one reference: Isaiah 64:8 -
New International Version
"Yet you, LORD, are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand."
I know few of us really want to die.

Yes, you are presently self identifying with the clay body, Jesus taught that that which is born of flesh/clay is flesh, and that which is born od spirit is spirit, unless you are born of the spirit, you will not become an immortal in the kingdom of God.

We as aspirants need to transition our self idenentiy from the body. to the soul (the spirit originally breathed into the clay by God). You can not have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Romans 9:20, it helps me comprehend more --
But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”
Life in the future will be different. I'm not going to be explicit about this because I hope to experience life in the future, and we don't exactly know what it will be like, but I can say that there are so many things to enjoy now, or at least ponder over the wonderment of life, and I can understand to a reasonable degree what God meant when he told Adam to take care of the earth and subdue it. Adam, of course, lost that chance when he was banished from the Garden and lost his close relationship with God as his teacher. But I believe that is yet to come.

Ok, if you believe the JW teaching of immortality in a clay body, then so be it. I hope though, there will be pleasant surprise, if it happens that your clay body does die, your soul is self-realized as an immortal angel.

 

[YoursTrue]

I think YOU misunderstood. You were implying that humans were not animals because they have funerals. I answered that humans are animals that have funerals. Having funerals and buying life insurance doesn't make human beings not animals.

I am saying (1) I do not go along with the notion that humans are animals because that is what I discern from the Bible. And (2) no chimpanzee, gorilla, or bird signs contracts with mortuaries and arranges for life insurance policies prior to their deaths.

You misunderstood me again. I didn't say that violence and greed don't exist. What I said is that civilization and life are much more than that, and in my case, and I suspect yours as well (which I elaborated on but you disregarded), those two play a very small role in my life.

The world is corrupt in most senses. People have greatly damaged the atmosphere, life is treacherous in many senses and murders and mass murders continue and I'm not speaking only of school killings or surprise shootings in Las Vegas, things like that. I knew of the world's awful situation due to greed and selfishness long before I ever saw what the Bible had to say. I also might mention again that with all the mind altering drugs, including antidepressants that doctors and psychiatrists may prescribe, the rate of suicides among psychiatrists is quite high. In fact, one report stated: "Of course, we psychiatrists are not immune to suicide. On the contrary, psychiatrists and other physicians have the highest rates of suicide of any profession.2,3" Imagine that! Suicide Rates Among Psychiatrists.
Now I'm not sure about gorillas and suicide but I'm pretty sure they (the gorillas) don't keep statistics on that, and I'm also pretty sure humans do not keep statistics about animal suicides.