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Why Didn't the Universe Always Exist?

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
There is no direct evidence of BB, there is only theory, no actual replicable proof.
:facepalm: Going on about 'proof' is, err, proof that you don't understand how science works.


I otoh am saying the universe is SS, and the evidence and proof is here and now. Disprove me directly, not theoretically.
As is pointed out in the above links, the most direct evidence is that, due to the finite speed of light, we can directly see that the universe was different in the distant past.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
This is true but totally irrelevant when it comes to the nature of time, which is where all this started. You seem to be trying to bring in anything you can that is different from science as some sort of smokescreen to hide the fact that what was under discussion was about our physical reality and hence in the realm of scientific investigation.

There is no moral aspect to whether time may have had a start or not.
Time is measured with clocks. Clocks, by their nature, define increments of time based on changes within space. This can be the movement of the second hand in space, for the analog clock. Or the change of digital display in a given location of space, for the digital clock. Or the change in the amount of sand, in a given volume of space, for the hour glass. Or the change in the relative location of the moon or sun in space, etc.

Since the philosophy of science requires one prove time by correlating observational data, the clock does not allow one to measure pure time, but a version of time, connected to space and time; space-time. We do not have tools to measure pure time. This cannot be done by a clock, since all clocks are measuring time as it propagates in space; space-time, not just pure time. The clock, as a tool, is where things get philosophically messed up. It is like measuring body weight with a meter stick and hone having a debate about body weight. It is not easy and tidy.

I treat time as a potential for change, but change is not limited to just corresponding space as measured by clocks. In other words, if we separated space-time into independent space and independent time, clocks no longer work to measure time, since the concept of time you will try to measure is no longer connected to space. However, this time still has a potential for change. The lottery may have a winner tomorrow, but we do not know where in space this may occur. The potential for change is there, but we cannot predict where. We will know after the fact and now can use the clock. This is not the same as the second hand, which is predictable. We know, in advance in one minute it will return to same location in space.

This type of time; independent time, takes into account statistical uncertainty in space, human consciousness and the human imagination. Say I am watching a police drama on TV, where they, weekly, solve a complex crime, in less than hour; hour minus commercial breaks. Obviously, real police, in space-time, are not able to do this week after week. We can use clocks to measure the one hour program, but solving crimes in an hour does not add up to what is expected in space-time reality. Yet the TV drama expresses a duration of time. Each week we know the blueprint, with the plot changing, with each blueprint having the potential to solve any crime in one hour. It is a product of the human imagination and can be a fun exercise of unraveling the plot. It is a one hour puzzle. It is real in that sense.

We can use the scientific method and treat this TV drama as a phenomena to be investigated. We consciously analyze and collect data, just like any science project, with the method consistent. We will use clocks to measure time. However, the potential for change, which in this case is the action and drama of solving the crime, of one hour still occurs. This is much less time than expected in space-time reality, for other similar crimes. That that would tell us, although time is propagating, this version of time is too fast, for that series of actions, and therefore it is not in space-time reality. There may be relativity altering time, or it can be just an imaginary clock set to its own time.

If you look at Creation and Evolution, both use time, with Creation using independent time. Like the one hour TV crime drama, it uses an accelerated version of time, to define the potential for drastic universal change in just 6 days. They are not talking about the type of time measured by space-time clocks. That fast scenario would require independent time and independent space. It is a valid scenario where space and time are separated. But it is not valid where space-time are connected and is measured with clocks.

When you enter the quantum realm, both space-time and independent space and time appear together. The speed of light is not always the speed limit. Or in the case of the experiments of Heisenberg, space and time (position and momentum), can go in opposite directions, so the second hand and incremental time get more and more off, the more precise you try to get. Religions tend to deal in independent space and time, where more options open up from imaginary to prophetic. It is not worse or better, but is more connected to where space-time leaves off and more options begin to appear for consciousness. via consciousness within independent space and time. This has applications is physics.

If you look at the 2nd law, that states that the entropy of the universe has to increase. This potential for change appears to be connected to independent time. There is constant potential for change called entropy increase. We do not know where in space this may occur, unless we can harness this time potential. This is the nature of life, with water and organics causing surface tension, and water, by being the most dominant secondary bonding force, packs a protein lowering its entropy. Now change in time; time potential, has a more likely place in space to fulfill; enzyme. The entire cell is processing in time, all coordinated like a symphony orchestra, due to entropy manipulation. Consciousness works the same way, processing time potential by reversing entropy; ionic, to there are targets in space for independent time.
 
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ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Time is measured with clocks. Clocks, by their nature, define increments of time based on changes within space. This can be the movement of the second hand in space, for the analog clock. Or the change of digital display in a given location of space, for the digital clock. Or the change in the amount of sand, in a given volume of space, for the hour glass. Or the change in the relative location of the moon or sun in space, etc.

Since the philosophy of science requires one prove time by correlating observational data, the clock does not allow one to measure pure time, but a version of time, connected to space and time; space-time. We do not have tools to measure pure time. This cannot be done by a clock, since all clocks are measuring time as it propagates in space; space-time, not just pure time. The clock, as a tool, is where things get philosophically messed up. It is like measuring body weight with a meter stick and hone having a debate about body weight. It is not easy and tidy.

I treat time as a potential for change, but change is not limited to just corresponding space as measured by clocks. In other words, if we separated space-time into independent space and independent time, clocks no longer work to measure time, since the concept of time you will try to measure is no longer connected to space. However, this time still has a potential for change. The lottery may have a winner tomorrow, but we do not know where in space this may occur. The potential for change is there, but we cannot predict where. We will know after the fact and now can use the clock. This is not the same as the second hand, which is predictable. We know, in advance in one minute it will return to same location in space.

This type of time; independent time, takes into account statistical uncertainty in space, human consciousness and the human imagination. Say I am watching a police drama on TV, where they, weekly, solve a complex crime, in less than hour; hour minus commercial breaks. Obviously, real police, in space-time, are not able to do this week after week. We can use clocks to measure the one hour program, but solving crimes in an hour does not add up to what is expected in space-time reality. Yet the TV drama expresses a duration of time. Each week we know the blueprint, with the plot changing, with each blueprint having the potential to solve any crime in one hour. It is a product of the human imagination and can be a fun exercise of unraveling the plot. It is a one hour puzzle. It is real in that sense.

We can use the scientific method and treat this TV drama as a phenomena to be investigated. We consciously analyze and collect data, just like any science project, with the method consistent. We will use clocks to measure time. However, the potential for change, which in this case is the action and drama of solving the crime, of one hour still occurs. This is much less time than expected in space-time reality, for other similar crimes. That that would tell us, although time is propagating, this version of time is too fast, for that series of actions, and therefore it is not in space-time reality. There may be relativity altering time, or it can be just an imaginary clock set to its own time.

If you look at Creation and Evolution, both use time, with Creation using independent time. Like the one hour TV crime drama, it uses an accelerated version of time, to define the potential for drastic universal change in just 6 days. They are not talking about the type of time measured by space-time clocks. That fast scenario would require independent time and independent space. It is a valid scenario where space and time are separated. But it is not valid where space-time are connected and is measured with clocks.

When you enter the quantum realm, both space-time and independent space and time appear together. The speed of light is not always the speed limit. Or in the case of the experiments of Heisenberg, space and time (position and momentum), can go in opposite directions, so the second hand and incremental time get more and more off, the more precise you try to get. Religions tend to deal in independent space and time, where more options open up from imaginary to prophetic. It is not worse or better, but is more connected to where space-time leaves off and more options begin to appear for consciousness. via consciousness within independent space and time. This has applications is physics.

If you look at the 2nd law, that states that the entropy of the universe has to increase. This potential for change appears to be connected to independent time. There is constant potential for change called entropy increase. We do not know where in space this may occur, unless we can harness this time potential. This is the nature of life, with water and organics causing surface tension, and water, by being the most dominant secondary bonding force, packs a protein lowering its entropy. Now change in time; time potential, has a more likely place in space to fulfill; enzyme. The entire cell is processing in time, all coordinated like a symphony orchestra, due to entropy manipulation. Consciousness works the same way, processing time potential by reversing entropy; ionic, to there are targets in space for independent time.
Wow, 932 words or meanless waffle. How much time did you totally waste typing this out and why?
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
@ratiocinator

Time is measured with clocks..
Correct.

Clocks, by their nature, define increments of time based on changes within space.
Correct.

Since the philosophy of science requires one prove time by correlating observational data, the clock does not allow one to measure pure time, but a version of time, connected to space and time; space-time. We do not have tools to measure pure time. This cannot be done by a clock, since all clocks are measuring time as it propagates in space; space-time, not just pure time. The clock, as a tool, is where things get philosophically messed up. It is like measuring body weight with a meter stick and hone having a debate about body weight. It is not easy and tidy.
Now, this is where it becomes tricky. You will assert that there is no such thing as "pure time",
but neither I or you knows that without further explanations from the author.
I think they refer to 'philosophical time' .. which refers to the passing of subjective time.

It is a real thing .. just as our minds are a real thing, as is philosophy. :)

This type of time; independent time, takes into account statistical uncertainty in space, human consciousness and the human imagination. Say I am watching a police drama on TV, where they, weekly, solve a complex crime, in less than hour; hour minus commercial breaks. Obviously, real police, in space-time, are not able to do this week after week. We can use clocks to measure the one hour program, but solving crimes in an hour does not add up to what is expected in space-time reality. Yet the TV drama expresses a duration of time. Each week we know the blueprint, with the plot changing, with each blueprint having the potential to solve any crime in one hour. It is a product of the human imagination and can be a fun exercise of unraveling the plot. It is a one hour puzzle. It is real in that sense.
Nothing contradictory there .. an attempt to explain how our minds envisage a one hour 'who-done-it'

If you look at Creation and Evolution, both use time, with Creation using independent time. Like the one hour TV crime drama, it uses an accelerated version of time, to define the potential for drastic universal change in just 6 days. They are not talking about the type of time measured by space-time clocks. That fast scenario would require independent time and independent space. It is a valid scenario where space and time are separated. But it is not valid where space-time are connected and is measured with clocks.
That's not particularly incoherent..
etc. etc.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Not speculative, logical. Something cannot come from nothing, and in any event, nothing does not exist, therefore existence exists everywhere eternally.

Unless science can create or show how something can come from nothing, BB can't be taken seriously. Now a multiverse may be a reality.

Logic can be speculation, unless the logic is presented in mathematical form.

Logic are not evidence, Ben.

As I mentioned before, science required all theories to be rigorously tested, and the only tests accepted are experiments & evidence, something that can be detected, quantified, measured, etc, hence tests required observations.

While logic is a tool that can be used, like chemical formulas of some chemical reactions or mathematical equations, these logic doesn’t make it true, scientifically.

Logic, like formulas or equations, must be subjected to testing, just like testing any explanation or testing any prediction. The test can verify or refute logic.

Logic are not infallible or inerrant, Ben, because all logic are of human constructs, and humans can err, and if humans can be wrong, so can any logic be wrong.

Don’t be offended, ben, I don’t trust your logic. If you cannot test logic, then to me your logic is merely personal opinion.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Now, this is where it becomes tricky. You will assert that there is no such thing as "pure time",
but neither I or you knows that without further explanations from the author.
I think they refer to 'philosophical time' .. which refers to the passing of subjective time.
Wow. Trying to read something into vague ramblings. You also seem to have totally changed what you mean by "philosophical time" because you first raised it in the context of something that cannot have a start. Now it's become subjective time, which is, well, subjective, so somewhat irrelevant here since this is not about psychology or physiology.

Nothing contradictory there .. an attempt to explain how our minds envisage a one hour 'who-done-it'
Which would be relevant to this topic, how, exactly?

That's not particularly incoherent..
Debatable. You may not be aware that @wellwisher has some bizarre idea about quite literally separating time and space out of space-time and seems to think it has something to do with the uncertainty principle in QM and the BB, so "independent time" might not mean what you think.

Regardless, the way you've read this particular avalanche of pointless waffle, it's just totally irrelevant. The universe can't have always existed in subjective time, or story telling time, because you need conscious beings for that.
 
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gnostic

The Lost One
There is no direct evidence of BB, there is only theory, no actual replicable proof.

There are no direct evidence that the universe is eternal.

As to proof, you haven’t shown any.

if you understand what PROOF is, the ways scientists and mathematicians understand ”proof”, then ”proof” is a logical statement or logical model, often expressed as equation or a set of equations.

When anyone say “prove” or “disprove“, then that would means to a mathematician or a scientist, solving the equation, or do partial differentiation or do truth table (eg using the operators AND, OR, NAND, NOR, etc), etc.

To give some examples as to what proofs mean in science, particularly in physics:
Ohm’s Law is V = I R that equation is proof, not evidence​
Newton‘s law for force is F = m a, that would be a proof for force.​
Here is Einstein’s proof for mass-energy equivalence (used in Special Relativity): E = m c^2​

So if you had any proof, then should be able to show mathematical equations that the universe is eternal. But since this thread started, you have not shown a single equation.

You keep saying you have proof, then do you either the equation or formula?

If you don’t, then stop claiming you have them.

I otoh am saying the universe is SS, and the evidence and proof is here and now. Disprove me directly, not theoretically.

Proofs (eg equations) are theoretical.

here, you have demonstrated once again, you don’t even know what proof is.

if you want to prove or disprove something, then that would be “theoretical”.

you are utterly clueless, using wrong words, only demonstrated how little understand science.
 
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Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

I made no implication that any god did anything. I was asking if the universe would still exist in the absence of an experiencer.
I think everything that makes a universe, hence fundamental forms of matter/energy, always existed even if there is nothing around to experience it.

It gives me reason to suspect we are in a continuum.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
I think everything that makes a universe, hence fundamental forms of matter/energy, always existed even if there is nothing around to experience it.
That's nice for you, but do you have any actual evidence or reasoning? And "matter/energy" is meaningless. The two things aren't even in the same category (E=mc² relates mass to energy, and they are both properties, not 'stuff').
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
That's nice for you, but do you have any actual evidence or reasoning? And "matter/energy" is meaningless. The two things aren't even in the same category (E=mc² relates mass to energy, and they are both properties, not 'stuff').
We are the evidence coupled with the fact nothing really goes anywhere as everything is interrelated.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
You may not be aware that @wellwisher has some bizarre idea about quite literally separating time and space out of space-time..
I'm aware that they have some 'unusual' ideas. :)

The universe can't have always existed in subjective time, or story telling time, because you need conscious beings for that.
I didn't see that their post claimed one way or the other, whether our physical universe has "always existed".
..and re. conscious beings, it is only an assumption that physical beings made of matter are
the only ones with consciousness .. as its subjective. :)
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
I didn't see that their post claimed one way or the other, whether our physical universe has "always existed".
Maybe not, but that's the subject of this thread and the current discussion.

..and re. conscious beings, it is only an assumption that physical beings made of matter are
the only ones with consciousness ..
We have exactly zero evidence of any other conscious beings.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
What would you expect to see?
No idea. Somebody would have to come up with a testable hypothesis first.

I'm not trying to claim that it's impossible for such consciousness to exist, or that we can somehow rule it out, just that we have no reason at all, that I can see, to take the idea seriously. This is the case for endless other unfalsifiable propositions.

 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
No idea. Somebody would have to come up with a testable hypothesis first.

I'm not trying to claim that it's impossible for such consciousness to exist, or that we can somehow rule it out, just that we have no reason at all, that I can see, to take the idea seriously.
You mean that you don't. I see plenty of reason to believe in non-physical phenomena.
In fact, I don't rate this physical existence to be the sum total of reason..
..not that I find it pointless or insignificant, on the contrary, we have a lot to learn.

Not just scientific discovery, but including social science and the humanities, for example.
We see billionaires are now 'reaching for the moon' ..
Maybe they think they can make money out of it .. selling moon rock or something. ;)
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
:facepalm: Going on about 'proof' is, err, proof that you don't understand how science works.



As is pointed out in the above links, the most direct evidence is that, due to the finite speed of light, we can directly see that the universe was different in the distant past.
Speed of light is not direct evidence, science wrt BB is conceptual.
 
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