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Why Didn't the Universe Always Exist?

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Another rather depressing pop-science article.

It's another quite interesting conjecture but the article doesn't tell you much about it and you'd think from the headline it had been confirmed. Then there's the depressing misrepresentation of the standard view as starting with a singularity. Nobody in cosmology really takes that seriously.

Poor source and not meaningful.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
And I keep telling you that those words mean nothing specific. What exactly are you seeking and why should others find it valuable?

You're not making a point. Your writing words with no clear meaning or referent. What's a "truly religious experience" and what value would there be in that for somebody who already feels centered, complete, and content? You give someone like me no reason to believe that you're on to anything. You've said nothing to make me think that even if there was something to whatever it is you do that it would be worth pursuing. You don't seem smarter or happier than people who disregard all of that, so what's the appeal?

Thanks, but I don't. I called it a spiritual experience.

Once again, what do you think you have explained? You still haven't described what your experience is or why others should want it for themselves. Words like nonduality and quieting the mind simply aren't meaningful or helpful. You're describing unconsciousness. I'm not looking for that. My mind is quite active, and that pleases and entertains me. All conscious experience is subject-object duality, and why would we want it any other way?

If that's a humanist association, then no. I don't belong to any organization.

I guess I made no impact on your thinking. While you're thinking about the doom and gloom in the world, I'll be having a nice day. The high is expected to be 77 deg F and the low tonight 65 deg F. I have online bridge with Neal this morning from 8:30-10 AM, and we'll be meeting Ralph and Trish here at the house at 4PM for wine and conversation before walking a quarter mile to Min-Wah for Peking duck.

The atmosphere is clear and we have no school shootings here. I expect no suicides or overdoses to intersect with my day - just leisure, beauty, and stimulating experiences with friends.

Is that what occupies your mind when gardening? My wife finds gardening a spiritual experience. It's a time she feels connected to the earth, the flowers and herbs, and the butterflies and birds in the birdbath. I'll bet that she never thinks of crime, violence, or greed while doing that.

Disagree twice.

That god hasn't done that yet. But man has solved many problems. Of course, you're likely unaware of that. All you seem to see is greed, corruption, violence, air pollution, suicide, school shootings and drug overdoses. And it seems that that isn't going to change whatever you are told or whatever is actually going on in your daily life.
My heart goes out to those suffering. Certain situations remind me of what Jesus said, some people would be enjoying themselves while others are greatly suffering. Yes, I feel bad for those that are being killed or mistreated because of their situation and status in life. Yes, I enjoy beautiful flowers and today a small child said hello to me, I didn't even know her, but that made me think sweetly of that child. There is a lot of bullying going on in school so I hope her parent helps her to cope with it. When I went to school, and probably when you went to school there really was no bullying and if there was it was stopped immediately. Today it's a different story.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The topic is whether the universe is possibly without a beginning and cyclic, or possibly one universe in a multiverse.
There is a discussion also going on about reality. If you can't figure whether there was or was not a multiverse, have a good day. :)
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Careful with misleading titles. Simply it addresses the current physics and cosmology proposals of a cyclic universe as proposed by Hawking-Penrose.
Poor Dr. Hawking -- so sick -- tragic. Maybe yes/maybe no insofar as how it happened, the universe I mean.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have been responding to your comments to me and explaining to you why your present understanding of religion is incorrect.
But you don't explain. Your words explain nothing. I think that my understanding of religion and meditation are correct. If they weren't you would be able to explain why it's not rather than just say it's not.

I can see that nothing more will come from this discussion than did from the dozens of similar ones I have had with other people making soft, fuzzy claims with nothing to back them up either in terms of an explanation of why they do what you do or in terms or in terms of it improving their own lives.
did you read about Harvey Weinstein being taken to the hospital emergency because he was having heart problems? Not sure if you live in the U.S. but it's headlines here for the most part.
I saw the headline but didn't read the article. That's irrelevant to my life and not interesting. News needs to be at least one of those to be worth reading.
I was driving today and saw beautiful white fluffy clouds in a beautiful blue color.
Through all of the pollution? You don't mention such things when describing your world.
what Jesus said, some people would be enjoying themselves while others are greatly suffering.
You must have missed that first part, and you seem to be in that second group. There has been nothing positive or happy in your writing until I pointed that out to you, and now you talk of fluffy clouds when what really seems to matter to you was Weinstein's bad health. "If you plant ice, you're gonna harvest wind."

What I'm seeing with these twin conversations is that neither of you have anything I want. He's thinking about duality and you're thinking about the horrors of the world.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
But you don't explain. Your words explain nothing. I think that my understanding of religion and meditation are correct. If they weren't you would be able to explain why it's not rather than just say it's not.

I can see that nothing more will come from this discussion than did from the dozens of similar ones I have had with other people making soft, fuzzy claims with nothing to back them up either in terms of an explanation of why they do what you do or in terms or in terms of it improving their own lives.

I saw the headline but didn't read the article. That's irrelevant to my life and not interesting. News needs to be at least one of those to be worth reading.
The point is that Mr. Weinstein allegedly did some not-so-nice things to people. They suffered. He's suffering due to situation and illness. Many people are suffering far worse than that. That you cannot absorb this is kind of sad, almost reminds me of Candide in many ways. I paraphrase, of course, but hey, let's get back to gardening! Or--glitter and be gay...Or "Look on the Sunny Side..." or ... "It's a Wonderful World." While I like blue skies and like flowers for the most part and I like nature -- one should be realistic as well. At least I think so.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
But you don't explain. Your words explain nothing. I think that my understanding of religion and meditation are correct. If they weren't you would be able to explain why it's not rather than just say it's not.

I can see that nothing more will come from this discussion than did from the dozens of similar ones I have had with other people making soft, fuzzy claims with nothing to back them up either in terms of an explanation of why they do what you do or in terms or in terms of it improving their own lives.

I saw the headline but didn't read the article. That's irrelevant to my life and not interesting. News needs to be at least one of those to be worth reading.

Through all of the pollution? You don't mention such things when describing your world.

You must have missed that first part, and you seem to be in that second group. There has been nothing positive or happy in your writing until I pointed that out to you, and now you talk of fluffy clouds when what really seems to matter to you was Weinstein's bad health. "If you plant ice, you're gonna harvest wind."

What I'm seeing with these twin conversations is that neither of you have anything I want. He's thinking about duality and you're thinking about the horrors of the world.
If you think it's a Wonderful World in the sense of groups killing other groups, torturing others, warfare, greed -- hey, that's up to you.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
But you don't explain. Your words explain nothing. I think that my understanding of religion and meditation are correct. If they weren't you would be able to explain why it's not rather than just say it's not.

I can see that nothing more will come from this discussion than did from the dozens of similar ones I have had with other people making soft, fuzzy claims with nothing to back them up either in terms of an explanation of why they do what you do or in terms or in terms of it improving their own lives.
Your logic is off, how can the religious truth be explained to an atheist who has already made up their mind that religion is not true. Iow, you rejected my explanation, it is not that I did not explain.

Naturally, if you are an atheist, you do not see the truth of religious teaching. So hopefully you will learn from our exchange that you are wasting your time asking religious folk to explain religion when you have already made up your mind that there is no spiritual God.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Your logic is off, how can the religious truth be explained to an atheist who has already made up their mind that religion is not true. Iow, you rejected my explanation, it is not that I did not explain.

Naturally, if you are an atheist, you do not see the truth of religious teaching. So hopefully you will learn from our exchange that you are wasting your time asking religious folk to explain religion when you have already made up your mind that there is no spiritual God.
I believe the subject of the thread was "Why Didn't the Universe Always Exist?"

Our physical existence likely has always existed.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Poor source and not meaningful.
On the contrary. Strassler is a working theoretical physicist, who worked a CERN, now at Harvard. His site is extremely useful for more accessible articles on physics.

Take a look at his published papers:

On the subject of the BB singularity, although it abounds in pop-science, I know of no current cosmologists who take it seriously any more. Much more relevant is that Matt Strassler doesn't either.


I’m not making this up out of my head. Just yesterday I was involved in a long conversation with professors and post-doctoral researchers at Harvard, in which we discussed various exotic mathematical methods for exploring the inflationary epoch and the era before it. The possibility that there really is a singularity at the beginning of the universe never came up once.
Or you can look at papers by the world’s experts — say, one by Alan Guth, a 17-page review of “eternal” inflation (i.e. inflation that continues, at least somewhere in our very large universe, into the infinite future) — and although he devotes some pages to the issue of what might have preceded inflation, the word “singularity” does not appear anywhere in his text.
...
...
Yet all over the media and all over the web, we can find articles, including ones published just after this week’s cosmic announcement of new evidence in favor of inflation, that state with great confidence that in the Big Bang Theory the universe started from a singularity. So I’m honestly very confused. Who is still telling the media and the public that the universe really started with a singularity, or that the modern Big Bang Theory says that it does? I’ve never heard an expert physicist say that. And with good reason: when singularities and other infinities have turned up in our equations in the past, those singularities disappeared when our equations, or our understanding of how to use our equations, improved.
Moreover, there’s a point of logic here. How could we possibly know what happened at the very beginning of the universe? No experiment can yet probe such an early time, and none of the available equations are powerful enough or usable enough to allow us to come to clear and unique conclusions.
The modern Big Bang Theory really starts after this period of ignorance, with a burst of inflation that creates a large expanding universe, and the end of inflation which allows for the creation of the heat of the Hot Big Bang. The equations for the theory, as it currently stands, can be used to make predictions even though we don’t know the precise nature of our universe’s birth. Yes, a singularity often turns up in our equations when we extend them as far as they can go in the past; but a singularity of this sort is far from likely to be an aspect of nature, and instead should be interpreted as a sign of what we don’t yet understand.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
On the contrary. Strassler is a working theoretical physicist, who worked a CERN, now at Harvard. His site is extremely useful for more accessible articles on physics.

Take a look at his published papers:

On the subject of the BB singularity, although it abounds in pop-science, I know of no current cosmologists who take it seriously any more. Much more relevant is that Matt Strassler doesn't either.

Good references, but they do not justify your confusing religious agenda.

It has already been brought up that the cyclic universe view is what is described in the above references, and not controversial. You over state the objections to the support to the existence of a singularity. Actually some cyclic versions include a singularity.

Basically none of the above actually supports your confusing agenda of 'arguing from ignorance' instead of focusing on what the current knowledge of origins of our universe or possible universes in a multiverse

Again unanswered questions concerning physics, Quantum Mechanics and cosmology do not support your arguments.
I’m not making this up out of my head. Just yesterday I was involved in a long conversation with professors and post-doctoral researchers at Harvard, in which we discussed various exotic mathematical methods for exploring the inflationary epoch and the era before it. The possibility that there really is a singularity at the beginning of the universe never came up once.
Nonetheless the possibility of a singularity is still in the accepted models, and cyclic versions like those proposed by Hawking-Penrose are important in understanding the possible histories of the origins of our universe.
Or you can look at papers by the world’s experts — say, one by Alan Guth, a 17-page review of “eternal” inflation (i.e. inflation that continues, at least somewhere in our very large universe, into the infinite future) — and although he devotes some pages to the issue of what might have preceded inflation, the word “singularity” does not appear anywhere in his text.
Again, again and again . . . the possibility of a singularity is a part of some models of the origins of our universe even cyclic models. No specific model at present has resolved the unanswered questions.

I believe an important point is the unanswered questions concerning the origins of our universe does not detreact from the depeth of knowledge we have of our universe,
...
...
Yet all over the media and all over the web, we can find articles, including ones published just after this week’s cosmic announcement of new evidence in favor of inflation, that state with great confidence that in the Big Bang Theory the universe started from a singularity. So I’m honestly very confused. Who is still telling the media and the public that the universe really started with a singularity, or that the modern Big Bang Theory says that it does? I’ve never heard an expert physicist say that. And with good reason: when singularities and other infinities have turned up in our equations in the past, those singularities disappeared when our equations, or our understanding of how to use our equations, improved.
Moreover, there’s a point of logic here. How could we possibly know what happened at the very beginning of the universe? No experiment can yet probe such an early time, and none of the available equations are powerful enough or usable enough to allow us to come to clear and unique conclusions.
The modern Big Bang Theory really starts after this period of ignorance, with a burst of inflation that creates a large expanding universe, and the end of inflation which allows for the creation of the heat of the Hot Big Bang. The equations for the theory, as it currently stands, can be used to make predictions even though we don’t know the precise nature of our universe’s birth. Yes, a singularity often turns up in our equations when we extend them as far as they can go in the past; but a singularity of this sort is far from likely to be an aspect of nature, and instead should be interpreted as a sign of what we don’t yet understand.
Your perpetually 'arguing from ignorance' of unanswered questions and the obvious that it is likely that science can never know ultimately the origin of our physical existence. These arguments are not productive and not relevant to your other objections to science based on a religious agenda.
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
I've just read a new paper that may help to explain the universe in more detail than ever before. A mathematical formula that unites Einsteins theory of relativity and quantum physics.

The article that lead me to the paper.
Magical equation unites quantum physics, general relativity in a first


The paper, quite heavy but fascinating.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0927650524001130?via=ihub
Ok, @ratiocinator , you gave it an informative, but have you looked at it far enough to tell whether there is something to it or is it making some unjustified equivocations that seem to work in some sense.
Over my head, but looks too simple to have been overlooked if real.

Is it a pallet cleanser from energy or a wine that has turned?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Ok, @ratiocinator , you gave it an informative, but have you looked at it far enough to tell whether there is something to it or is it making some unjustified equivocations that seem to work in some sense.
Over my head, but looks too simple to have been overlooked if real.

Is it a pallet cleanser from energy or a wine that has turned?

We will find out in time if some of the unsolvable problems of the universe are being solved in the near future.

Or not
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Good references, but they do not justify your confusing religious agenda.
You seem to lose track of who you're talking to sometimes.

I'm an atheist. I have no religious agenda.

It has already been brought up that the cyclic universe view is what is described in the above references, and not controversial.
There is more than one cyclic model, none of them are generally accepted, and the first page certainly didn't mention them. The second was a list of papers, but I've never seen Strassler suggest one, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

His point was that we simply don't know enough yet to have a definite answer, which is what I keep saying on this forum.

You over state the objections to the support to the existence of a singularity. Actually some cyclic versions include a singularity.
Like which? It doesn't look to me as if you really understand what a singularity is.

Basically none of the above actually supports your confusing agenda of 'arguing from ignorance' instead of focusing on what the current knowledge of origins of our universe or possible universes in a multiverse

Again unanswered questions concerning physics, Quantum Mechanics and cosmology do not support your arguments.
What agenda, what argument from ignorance, and what argument about unanswered questions?

Again, I think you're getting confused about who you are talking to.

For the rest of your post you are arguing against what I quoted from the site I linked to, so you are claiming to know more than a working theoretical physicist with multiple published papers, which is quite funny, really, since you showed elsewhere that you can't even do basic calculus.

You often make good points against those with religious agendas, but when it gets more technical you seem out of your depth.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Ok, @ratiocinator , you gave it an informative, but have you looked at it far enough to tell whether there is something to it or is it making some unjustified equivocations that seem to work in some sense.
It's a published paper that I just glanced at TBH, I'll maybe take a more detailed look at some stage. There are lots and lots of proposals for this sort of thing, maybe there's something in it, maybe not.
 
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