Why Didn't the Universe Always Exist?

[David Davidovich]

No. Prior to the Torah being giving as a national revelation - Avraham ben-Terahh (who is called Abraham in English) and his descendants had only the personal revelation of their leaders. I.e. Avraham ben-Terahh, Yitzhhaq ben-Avraham, Ya'aqov ben-Yitzhhaq, Yehudah ben-Ya'aqov, and Yoseph ben-Ya'aqov had personal revelations that either people accepted/beleived based on their personalities or did not accept.

There are a lot of ancient cultures that knew that something created all of the reality. Another sub-set also claimed that there was one source of creation/reality. Avraham ben-Terahh's point in his culture was that they were placing things that were created in place of the source of creation.

The giving of the Torah as a mass revelation to the Israeli people and also the non-Israelis who were there changed that circumstance so that instead of personal revelation there was a national revelation on what the reality is.

@Ehav4Ever, actually, my reply to you was a response to your reply to @gnotic's post in your post #128 where @gnostic said to you:

gnostic said: ↑
The Abrahamic religions do express the needs for Creator deity in the creation

However, from what I understand about ancient human behavior along with an earlier verse in Genesis at Genesis 4:26, humans started to seek the name of God/Hashem in early human history, even if doing so was in the wrong way. And then there's the account of the golden calf worship at Exodus 32 where the Israelites attributed Hashem's salvation to the golden calf. Along with all the pagan worship, which attributed creation to pagan gods, that both pre and post Israelites craved and participated in.

Therefore, it seems as if humankind in general, and particularly ancient humankind, seemed to express a need for a creator deity or deities.

 

[YoursTrue]

@Ehav4Ever, actually, my reply to you was a response to your reply to @gnotic's post in your post #128 where @gnostic said to you:



However, from what I understand about ancient human behavior along with an earlier verse in Genesis at Genesis 4:26, humans started to seek the name of God/Hashem in early human history, even if doing so was in the wrong way. And then there's the account of the golden calf worship at Exodus 32 where the Israelites attributed Hashem's salvation to the golden calf. Along with all the pagan worship, which attributed creation to pagan gods, that both pre and post Israelites craved and participated in.

Therefore, it seems as if humankind in general, and particularly ancient humankind, seemed to express a need for a creator deity or deities.

Do you think cows and birds have a need to express belief in a creator or deities?

 

[Ponder This]

Great logic. But I'm curious about something. Do you believe that this "Force" was intelligent or not?



Well, seeing that video games are created by human beings...

"Intelligent" must be adequately defined. Some say, "people are intelligent" and some say, "people are stupid". And it even seems that people can be both at the same time.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

However, from what I understand about ancient human behavior along with an earlier verse in Genesis at Genesis 4:26, humans started to seek the name of God/Hashem in early human history, even if doing so was in the wrong way.

BTW - the Torath Mosheh position on the Hebrew of Genesis 4:26 was not that humans were seeking. Instead, that the time period being discussed is the origin of what we call Avodah Zara which was the creation of the concept of deities and what is called in English gods.

The Torath Mosheh claim is that at a certain it was known that there was a source of reality. The claim about Avraham is not that he expressed the needs for Creator deity in the creation. The Torath Mosheh claim was that Avraham already had the conclusion that there was a source of creation/reality. His challange was that he didn't know what it was, at first. So, he experimented for decades with variuos forms of Avodah Zara by process of elemination to determine which was was historically and realistically the answer to his questions of "if" there is a source of creation and if so "what it is." According to some sources one of his experiments was whether it logically made sense that there was a source of reality or whether it was more logical that that is not a source. The idea is that at a certain point he concluded that Hashem was the source of creation/reality and that this information had been known but had been forgotten in his culture.

The difference between Avraham and the generation of Israelis who received the Torah at Mount Sinai is that Avraham had personal revelations, which of course those who were him couldn't verfiy for themselves. They simply saw his success and followed that. His children and grandchildren also had personal experiences. Yet, with the Torah being given at Mount Sinai there was a large Israeli and non-Jewish population who experienced it at what ever level they could hanlde. Also, the type of communication between Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) and Hashem was at a higher level than Avraham and others.

That I why I say, IF in reality that theer is no creation there doesn't have to be one from a Torath Mosheh Jewish perspective. The idea is that this was the reason that a national revelation was given by Hashem to the Israeli nation of that generation.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

And then there's the account of the golden calf worship at Exodus 32 where the Israelites attributed Hashem's salvation to the golden calf.

This is actually not what the Hebrew text states. I have video where I talk about the Torath Mosheh perspective see it below. AT 14:18 is where I dicuss this.

Also, it is important to note that gold calf happened after the Torah was given as a national revelation and not before. Thus, the information of there being a source of creation/reality was already known. The Mixed multitude was seeking to replace Mosheh ben-Amram with Avodah Zara.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Gensis 1:1-23:
Verse 5 says: God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. So, how could there be evening and morning anywhere else other than on earth?

The Hebrew text is not talking about day and night, as we know it on earth. The light being described, according to ancient Jewish sources if what one would call in English radiation or cosmic light.

According to various Torath Mosheh sources, something akin to the following.

Everything from First day to 5th day are talking about the universe and not the planet. I.e. it is stages of creation which is full of metaphor that is described in the oral Torah.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Same idea with verses 9 and 10: 9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good. Other than earth, where else in the universe are there planets with dry ground/land and waters or seas?

In our solar system alone there are numerous planets with dry ground and water. It is believed that Mars once had water which is now frozen. There are a number of exo-planets that are considered to potentially be earth like.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Same thing with11-13 verses : 11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day. So, where else other than earth is there vegetation, seed-bearing plants and trees that bear fruit, etc.?

There are Torath Mosheh sources that state that the potential for such was created on this day. There are some scholars who posit that life on this planet had its source from space.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Also, I forgot to mention that what you said almost seems to imply that God kind of had to keep trying and trying to bring our current reality into existence... until he finally got it right.

No, I would word it this way.

Hashem, being the source of reality works has a process of establishing reality in ways that are completely beyond and different than what a human would come up with. Also, the Torah being written in the language of humanity, in Hebrew, uses terms that can be understood by anyone but can investigated by those who need more.

I.e. Hashem was not "trying" to bring our current reality in existance. Hashem simply has a process that benefits our reality in ways that we may not fully understand while being alive. Kind of like we currently benefit from oil and natural gas, all elements that are the result of the life and planetary processes that existed millions of years before our generation. Why that stuff is the process, may be beyond most of us, yet it is a process that benefits us if we use it correctly.

We have the ability to understand it and the drive, given by Hashem, to understand as much as we can individually and collectively based on generation and technology.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

And with verses 14-19: 14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day. I can see how this could apply to other planets, but I don't understand why this isn't applying to the planet earth.

And finally, there's verses 20 to 23 that are only now supposed to be starting to refer to the planet earth. Please explain.

This is true, that the ability for day and night to exist on any planet is a part of what is described here also. YET, if one continues to the creation of humanity on earth this is where things start to become specific to elements that establish how humans exist on earth and affects all humans. I.e. day and night due to our planet's movement around the sun affects us directly in ways that radition from other suns or stars in far off reaches of the universe does. I.e. a simple farmer on this planet has a direct experience and need for earth day and night more than he does day and night on other planets. Further, the Jewish calender is reliant on the information of this day in ways that are more direct, yet, the previous establish the basis for which the sun and our planet can even exist to get us there.

That is what I mean.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

There's a commentary that has it that the Genesis creation accounts were haShem's 7th creation with the previous 6 being largely, but not entirely, destroyed by Him. This might explain where Cain's wife came from.

Actually, that Midrash doesn't use that as an explaination for Cain's wife. What it explains is that Qayyin (Cain) and Hevel were born with twin sisters. Hevel had two twin sisters where Qayyin had one. The idea being that they married thier twins until there were enough modern humans to no longer have to do that.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Verses 6 to 8 say: And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day. And yes, I know what a comet is, but where else other than earth is there a specific reference to a vault and separated water under and above the vault? Also, what is this verse supposed to be referring to with the word "sky" and the words morning and evening? Where else other than earth do those three things exist?

The problem you will have here is the English. The world that your translation is calling a "vault" is the Hebrew word.

This word is not a vault. Especially not in the way you would know it in English.

There are a number of long meta-physical explainations of what the word means in all of the places that it is used. It is commonly understood that there is more than one type of

One type is not physical, i.e. not made of matter. Further, a lot of Jewish sources from the last 2,000 years describe on type of

as being something that is a location like matter has. I.e. you can't say it is up there or down here. I.e. it has a form beyond matter. One modern way of looking at it is how people talk about dark matter even though "currently" it can't be measured or quantified.

Dark matter can refer to any substance which interacts predominantly via gravity with visible matter (e.g., stars and planets). Hence in principle it need not be composed of a new type of fundamental particle but could, at least in part, be made up of standard baryonic matter, such as protons or neutrons.​

 

[David Davidovich]

Do you think cows and birds have a need to express belief in a creator or deities?

I don't understand your question and how it applies to my quote that your replied to. Could you elaborate please?

 

[David Davidovich]

BTW - the Torath Mosheh position on the Hebrew of Genesis 4:26 was not that humans were seeking. Instead, that the time period being discussed is the origin of what we call Avodah Zara which was the creation of the concept of deities and what is called in English gods.

Right. And that's why I said in my quote about Genesis 4:26 that "humans started to seek the name of God/Hashem in early human history, even if doing so was in the wrong way."

The Torath Mosheh claim is that at a certain it was known that there was a source of reality. The claim about Avraham is not that he expressed the needs for Creator deity in the creation. The Torath Mosheh claim was that Avraham already had the conclusion that there was a source of creation/reality. His challange was that he didn't know what it was, at first. So, he experimented for decades with variuos forms of Avodah Zara by process of elemination to determine which was was historically and realistically the answer to his questions of "if" there is a source of creation and if so "what it is." According to some sources one of his experiments was whether it logically made sense that there was a source of reality or whether it was more logical that that is not a source. The idea is that at a certain point he concluded that Hashem was the source of creation/reality and that this information had been known but had been forgotten in his culture.

The difference between Avraham and the generation of Israelis who received the Torah at Mount Sinai is that Avraham had personal revelations, which of course those who were him couldn't verfiy for themselves. They simply saw his success and followed that. His children and grandchildren also had personal experiences. Yet, with the Torah being given at Mount Sinai there was a large Israeli and non-Jewish population who experienced it at what ever level they could hanlde. Also, the type of communication between Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) and Hashem was at a higher level than Avraham and others.

That I why I say, IF in reality that theer is no creation there doesn't have to be one from a Torath Mosheh Jewish perspective. The idea is that this was the reason that a national revelation was given by Hashem to the Israeli nation of that generation.

Okay, you lost me on your last paragraph.

 

[David Davidovich]

This is actually not what the Hebrew text states. I have video where I talk about the Torath Mosheh perspective see it below. AT 14:18 is where I dicuss this.

Okay, thanks, I will look at that.

Also, it is important to note that gold calf happened after the Torah was given as a national revelation and not before. Thus, the information of there being a source of creation/reality was already known. The Mixed multitude was seeking to replace Mosheh ben-Amram with Avodah Zara.

Right. And I think that somewhere in my post, I did say before and after those of Hebrew lineage received the Torah and that is why I also mentioned Genesis 4:26. Although, I had thought that Avodah Zara always included the concept of yearning for a creator and having creation myths. However, I did just stumble upon this article:

Stories describing creation are prominent in many cultures of the world. In Mesopotamia, the surviving evidence from the third millennium to the end of the first millennium B.C. indicates that although many of the gods were associated with natural forces, no single myth addressed issues of initial creation. It was simply assumed that the gods existed before the world was formed. Unfortunately, very little survives of Sumerian literature from the third millennium B.C. Several fragmentary tablets contain references to a time before the pantheon of the gods, when only the Earth (Sumerian: ki) and Heavens (Sumerian: an) existed. All was dark, there existed neither sunlight nor moonlight; however, the earth was green and water was in the ground, although there was no vegetation. More is known from Sumerian poems that date to the beginning centuries of the second millennium B.C.

click here: Mesopotamian Creation Myths | Essay | The Metropolitan Museum of Art | Heilbrunn Timeline of Art History (metmuseum.org)

I've only read the above first paragraph, but now I'm curious as to when ancient humans started to focus on creation myths/concepts/ideas or however one wants to word that.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Okay, you lost me on your last paragraph.

It is complicated because Torath Mosheh Jewish texts for thousands of years have provided large amoungs of information about Avraham ben-Terahh's life and what was the method he used to come to the conclusion that Hashem, specifically Hashem alone, is the source of reality and the source of how the process of creating even exists.

I will try to condense it in the following way.

1. Test #1 - There is a reality. Verify that this is the case.
2. Test #2 - Reality exists. How did it get here?
   • Possibility #1 it is random and without direction. i.e. reality just exists as a part of a natural process that is not put in place by anything.
   • Possibility #2 reality has always existed.
   • Possibility #3 that something put reality in place. i.e. created it.
   • Test all three.
3. Test #3 - If possibility #1 and #2 are true, then exist as is w/o change.
4. Test # 4 - If possibility #3 is true determine what the source of reality is. i.e. determine what is the source of reality and the ability for reality to exist.
   • Once the source is determined and is proven to be a constant, base entire reality on this circumstance.

This is how combined Torath Mosheh Jewish sources describe the process Avraham ben-Terahh went through for decades while he was living in Ur-Chasdim. Once he came to his conclusion, Hashem gave him a personal revelation to fill in the gaps.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Although, I had thought that Avodah Zara always included the concept of yearning for a creator and having creation myths.

Those, on their own are not Avodah Zara. Having an incorrect concept of what the Source of reality is/isn't, what it does, and adding incorrect elements to one's concept of reality really works is Avodah Zara. Avodah Zara means "foreign work/worship."

but now I'm curious as to when ancient humans started to focus on creation myths/concepts/ideas or however one wants to word that.

Probably because it is natural for one to look at reality and question how it works.

 

[rational experiences]

The topic is a testimony. Legal. Laws.

Man shifted earths mass.

The destroyer human predictions warnings.

How do humans destroy?

By inventions.

What is humans future predictions?

Maths not owning mass. Mass is past.

A prediction a future.

A reaction of man to mass theoried not yet reacted a future.

His highest god in science a machine man built that by laws had transcended by sun time under his control a God of man.

Pretty basic. Yet he said he had. Sun converted seams of metals into dusts. Sun had. Not man.

Rationale says there is no future in a mass conversion man predicts he will change. Mass ended sealed in the past.

What light term on earth does man claim a human owns?

Suns activated light history. Above.

No human ever owned it. Gods Inheritor immaculate clear gas did. It was Sacrificed Gods heavens body mass Inheritor.

Why did garden animals human and sink hole open as life was sacrifycing?

As no life on earth was Gods inheritor first body Sacrificed in time space a clear gas.

 

[metis]

Actually, that Midrash doesn't use that as an explaination for Cain's wife. What it explains is that Qayyin (Cain) and Hevel were born with twin sisters. Hevel had two twin sisters where Qayyin had one. The idea being that they married thier twins until there were enough modern humans to no longer have to do that.

Even though that midrash doesn't specifically say Cain's wife, it nevertheless opens the door to that being applied. As far as the twin sisters are concerned, I don't think the midrash that I was taught about [Lubavitch] mentions them.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Even though that midrash doesn't specifically say Cain's wife, it nevertheless opens the door to that being applied.

That is not how the midrash works. Midrashim are not for the purposes of opening doors to things they don't mention. A large number of them are simply "sermons" of the day.

As far as the twin sisters are concerned, I don't think the midrash that I was taught about [Lubavitch] mentions them.

Which Midrash did the Lubavitch teach you?