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Why Didn't the Universe Always Exist?

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
That is not how the midrash works. Midrashim are not for the purposes of opening doors to things they don't mention. A large number of them are simply "sermons" of the day.



Which Midrash did the Lubavitch teach you?
Since this was about 30 years ago when I attended one of their seminars at our local JCC, I really cannot remember any name per se. What I do remember is that there was a possible belief that earlier generations that were partially destroyed may not have had souls until Adam, thus it was possible that Cain's wife may have been one of those, and which may have necessitated the Flood.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I don't understand your question and how it applies to my quote that your replied to. Could you elaborate please?
It was just a question about the difference between human thinking and the ways of life of animals like cows and such.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Those, on their own are not Avodah Zara. Having an incorrect concept of what the Source of reality is/isn't, what it does, and adding incorrect elements to one's concept of reality really works is Avodah Zara. Avodah Zara means "foreign work/worship."



Probably because it is natural for one to look at reality and question how it works.
Yes. Some, like Einstein, might look at reality (light, for instance) and question how it works. I look at light and usually think how wonderful it is. If it's not too bright when I'm driving.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Those, on their own are not Avodah Zara. Having an incorrect concept of what the Source of reality is/isn't, what it does, and adding incorrect elements to one's concept of reality really works is Avodah Zara. Avodah Zara means "foreign work/worship."



Probably because it is natural for one to look at reality and question how it works.
Yes. Some, like Einstein, might look at reality (light, for instance) and question how it works. I look at light and usually think how wonderful it is. If it's not too bright when I'm driving.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Everything always existed in the presence everything.

Themed by human...garden body...animals...father human mother human.

Brothers and sisters first tribal lots of the same paired humans.

Balances exact.

No argument. No self idolator existed.

Self idolator an egotist was adult human man baby. Told not to self idolate yet most do... some don't.

Those that don't are the human brothers we need.

In the presence of everything existing.

A baby man adult knew he wasnt first man. Father was.

Mind status..I was conceived only as a human by human sex.

Everyone owns that status since.

No argument allowed.

A baby adult says to his family. Let me tell you as I know it all why we own life.

Not by human sex.

He tells another story why he is a super human.man.

And first theme says my man life is immaculately conceived.

So as he's living to make the claim.. as no one but that man type claimed the claim. You question.

What do you mean?

As his man life was owned first by father. First father had died. When man became a theist.

He says a woman's human body only owns ova ovary. Man never did.

As I'm born from a woman's cell my man's cell miraculously became within that cell. Yet I'm not woman.

Is his baby man looking back not at father's information. At his own.

So you ask him why are you looking at our human mother for?

His answer after claiming god created me. I did God science with machines. I changed the heavens spirit mass. My biology got sacrificed.

It's my mother's fault.

Now use some common shared human sense.

Why was it is human mother's fault?

It wasn't.

He realised as life by species is two he had lied about one.

As one human the men owned the scientific agreement.

Proven wrong in zero womb fake maths calculus.

Some basic natural history.
Natural human role plays.
Theisms as a human proves the scientist wrong.

Egotism was self idolisation.

Humans make humans by choice a human idol. Still do today.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Since this was about 30 years ago when I attended one of their seminars at our local JCC, I really cannot remember any name per se. What I do remember is that there was a possible belief that earlier generations that were partially destroyed may not have had souls until Adam, thus it was possible that Cain's wife may have been one of those, and which may have necessitated the Flood.

Even if a Midrash stated that, it doesn't sound it was stating that physically proceeded Adam Harishon and was able to stick around to marry Qayyin. If the midrash mentioned a "soul" that is more in line with the concept of (גיגול) meaning she died and a part of her soul was reborn in a new body. Even, if that were what the midrash was stating the Mishnah for Sanhedrin warns that things like this can't taken as fact.

Again, this is all IF the Midrash states such a thing.

Midrash Rabba 22:2, Sepher Yashar, and several places in the Talmud state Qayyin and Hevel had twin sisters who they married.

The basis of this is from the following in the Torah.

upload_2023-2-14_7-48-49.png
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Even if a Midrash stated that, it doesn't sound it was stating that physically proceeded Adam Harishon and was able to stick around to marry Qayyin. If the midrash mentioned a "soul" that is more in line with the concept of (גיגול) meaning she died and a part of her soul was reborn in a new body. Even, if that were what the midrash was stating the Mishnah for Sanhedrin warns that things like this can't taken as fact.

Again, this is all IF the Midrash states such a thing.

Midrash Rabba 22:2, Sepher Yashar, and several places in the Talmud state Qayyin and Hevel had twin sisters who they married.

The basis of this is from the following in the Torah.

View attachment 71691
That is why when Moses wrote that God said He took Adam from the dust and he will go back to dust as a result of his sin, there is nothing to say that God took anything but the breath of life and put it in Adam's nostrils. Not part of another person. When Adam stopped breathing for good, he died
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Even if a Midrash stated that, it doesn't sound it was stating that physically proceeded Adam Harishon and was able to stick around to marry Qayyin. If the midrash mentioned a "soul" that is more in line with the concept of (גיגול) meaning she died and a part of her soul was reborn in a new body. Even, if that were what the midrash was stating the Mishnah for Sanhedrin warns that things like this can't taken as fact.

Again, this is all IF the Midrash states such a thing.

Midrash Rabba 22:2, Sepher Yashar, and several places in the Talmud state Qayyin and Hevel had twin sisters who they married.

The basis of this is from the following in the Torah.

View attachment 71691
I'm beginning to think that the ruminations of those written in Midrash are similar to the possibilities of evolution scientists render.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
When men today are humans first.

When men in the past are human first.

There is only mass.

You became a lying greedy enslaver of family to build empires.

Humans today ask how and why.

Reason a small group of star fall phenomena involved men had become brain changed. We didn't know how to reason with their mind state.

Everyone was natural spiritual kind loving and would do no harm to anything. How I feel healed now and how Buddhists act now. It's natural.

So God human by your sick head terms greedy men and Satanism science was non destructive.

As changed mass your greedy I want energy the base of any created substance was your gain. The base of substance is God. As energy god he said had created all things as any type of a one type.

It's own origin one self. In mass. Mass being the giant body that humans aren't.

Not a resource first...back then the memory said you alchemised gold by mass conversion.

Was for trade commodity between greedy men in science. We didn't have machine technology as you do now communication machine to communication machine.

Designed as a communication to a same communication. Those types of machines conditions don't produce resources. Especially not electricity.

So you are wrong.

And as humans aren't machines it's why I got biological attacked. Basic answers for inhumane liars.

As resource was his clay urns as batteries. Water into wine acidic batteries to power your machines. Life type of machines.

Life type including of machines ...man's god his machine was involved in your technology how to change a dust. Is what you taught.

Destroyer advice is science.

Doing underground beamed technology. Inside pyramid machinations. Alchemy terms in nuclear change. That blew up.

You knew you had to pressure encase the stone in pressures earth mass hadn't owned to do that type of science.

Why you made huge sin..K holes in earths mass.

As you do what you want whenever you want. History rich kings to sacrificed king's. Who learnt they said how wrong they were as humans.

Introduced as those rich men religion. Legal first versus Satanism science. Destroyer.

As no man is God.
No man invented mass.

Is the story mass everywhere is one.

Any one type.

Versus the destroyer of all things One anything.

The teaching.
 
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rational experiences

Veteran Member
When men today are humans first.

When men in the past are human first.

There is only mass.

You became a lying greedy enslaver of family to build empires.

Humans today ask how and why.

Reason a small group of star fall phenomena involved men had become brain changed. We didn't know how to reason with their mind state.

Everyone was natural spiritual kind loving and would do no harm to anything. How I feel healed now and how Buddhists act now. It's natural.

So God human by your sick head terms greedy men and Satanism science was non destructive.

As changed mass your greedy I want energy the base of any created substance was your gain. The base of substance is God. As energy god he said had created all things as any type of a one type.

It's own origin one self. In mass. Mass being the giant body that humans aren't.

Not a resource first...back then the memory said you alchemised gold by mass conversion.

Was for trade commodity between greedy men in science. We didn't have machine technology as you do now communication machine to communication machine.

Designed as a communication to a same communication. Those types of machines conditions don't produce resources. Especially not electricity.

So you are wrong.

And as humans aren't machines it's why I got biological attacked. Basic answers for inhumane liars.

As resource was his clay urns as batteries. Water into wine acidic batteries to power your machines. Life type of machines.

Life type including of machines ...man's god his machine was involved in your technology how to change a dust. Is what you taught.

Destroyer advice is science.

Doing underground beamed technology. Inside pyramid machinations. Alchemy terms in nuclear change. That blew up.

You knew you had to pressure encase the stone in pressures earth mass hadn't owned to do that type of science.

Why you made huge sin..K holes in earths mass.

As you do what you want whenever you want. History rich kings to sacrificed king's. Who learnt they said how wrong they were as humans.

Introduced as those rich men religion. Legal first versus Satanism science. Destroyer.

As no man is God.
No man invented mass.

Is the story mass everywhere is one.

Any one type.

Versus the destroyer of all things One anything.

The teaching.
The memory says it's about what you science brothers learnt.

Science your calculus never represented universal existence. You pretended it did for nothing calculus machine only conversions.

Exact as the practice of science.

If you owned why all things were changed science numbers today used would prove you did it. Change equals the outcome what you first now look at.

Satanic cloud images of angels evolved into human like images in origin earths total life combustion eradication. Of biology by man the scientist.

How it was recorded. Visionary only.

Carbon for nature body ashes for biology.

As the clouds cooled after many years...how images of our pre lived life emerged in clouds mass. You look you see lots of images non stop emerge. As bodies.

Cloud mass is smoking rolling. The bodies form separately but within clouds mass. Images.

Recorded history.

When modern man's mind was changed by the star mass you had previously forced earth to be hit were inherited. You reasoned the entirety of the past event.

Was exactly advised how men of science obliterated all life on earth. Spatial ice freeze use to instantly snap freeze human artefacts you found inside of fusion.

Why earth didn't get iced. Why dinosaurs then inherited earth life in the garden.

After earth cooled by ice presence it's why origin life has now Reinherited the earth as proven. Earths actual mass fusion and gas mass heavens once owned what was cooler.

Meek humanity returned our first life given back. Inherited already.

Now we depend on ice mass.

Changing of dusts now was for Alchemy and not images. As man's science thesis.

Is the lie you told. You didn't write I realised old science giant pyramid history a long time ago was by life's total destruction. Visionary.

Visionary events. Star dusts above not ground dusts. Formed images above. By causes.

You knew new ground mass dust converting didn't equate to images at all. As you alchemised the dust mass into gold.

Just another lie you use today. That images came from dusts that began organic life....it never had. It had only caused images.

Men had in fact by visionary remembered how to apply pyramid sciences. Had to now use a temple on mountain design to keep transmitters cooler inside clouds mass.

It's why they pumped water over the casement as they knew grounds mass heated.

Nature living on the ground mass died sacrificed. As greedy rich science men cared less about life or family.

No amount of teaching spirituality had any effect on their mind state.
 

Madmogwai

Madmogwai
Why didn't the universe always exist? Because since God is supposed to be outside of time and is supposed to have always existed, then how could God have used a point in time to start creation? Any thoughts on this?
No thoughts, Buddha said don’t think about it as it is beyond your comprehension.
It serves no purpose the think about what has already passed
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Men of new Theisis said I heard voice. I saw images.

Outcome of the Isis false the sis.

What position did the man life own?

Natural men. Mind changed by stars return. Spiritual men bodily consciously yet altered reality mind chemical.

Why behaviour was involved. Behaviour involves unreasonable choices. A pretty basic teaching.

As men who gained human man's scientific advice. Without owning a machine mass or changing mass. Second time wanting mass as by God the machine.

His said as a body of higher colder mass machine..
He reacted mass inside its form body pretend earth. Inside earth is not a reaction however.

Is the exact human lie itself.

No reacting reaction. But inside earth was a shifted mass condition of itself.

Where his fake time shifting other reacting thesis came from. Totally fake.

How did men copy causes in laws?

They didn't.

It's why science blows up in their end as science. Machine overheats. Machine blows up.

As the idea Jesus and ground earth mass cooling was a one of only advice. Why nuclear model will destroy itself eventual one by one.

Ignored science wasn't God caused the outcome itself.

Machine practice is in its law conditional to change remove earths mass plus earths gases.

As earth only raised a Mountain volcano..not any machine in mass pressure changes. A mountain isn't machine science either.

However where did the raised mass own science? Atop it as temple transmitters placed. All lies today. Apportioned remembered not factual.

Was the true scientific teaching that past mans legal status had stopped theists destroying life by.

Pretty basic it all owned purposes that are not taught factually today... as it's all just by man's wants first. Ignored.

Truth of laws.

Laws first basic accountability of presence on earth only.

So its geo central as a teaching one God earth.

Thesis design isn't laws.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
The Hebrew text is not talking about day and night, as we know it on earth. The light being described, according to ancient Jewish sources if what one would call in English radiation or cosmic light.

According to various Torath Mosheh sources, something akin to the following.

View attachment 71617

But how could ancient Jewish sources be describing cosmic microwave background radiation when human beings didn't even know what cosmic microwave background radiation was until the year 1964?

On May 20, 1964, American radio astronomers Robert Wilson and Arno Penzias discovered the cosmic microwave background radiation (CMB), the ancient light that began saturating the universe 380,000 years after its creation. And they did so pretty much by accident.

Everything from First day to 5th day are talking about the universe and not the planet. I.e. it is stages of creation which is full of metaphor that is described in the oral Torah.


I may have watched this video already, but I'll look at it again.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
In our solar system alone there are numerous planets with dry ground and water. It is believed that Mars once had water which is now frozen. There are a number of exo-planets that are considered to potentially be earth like.

View attachment 71603

View attachment 71604

Well, I kind of stepped right into that one since I know there are other planets that have water and land on them... However, how could the ancient Hebrew speaking audience have understood that when they had no idea that there was a Mars or what an exo-planet even was?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
No thoughts, Buddha said don’t think about it as it is beyond your comprehension.
It serves no purpose the think about what has already passed
Some scientists spend a lot of time thinking about it. It seems like a game to them and some of them understand a lot about physics and get paid a good amount to teach these concepts. Write books. Papers.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
David Davidovich said:

Same thing with11-13 verses : 11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day. So, where else other than earth is there vegetation, seed-bearing plants and trees that bear fruit, etc.?

There are Torath Mosheh sources that state that the potential for such was created on this day. There are some scholars who posit that life on this planet had its source from space.

View attachment 71605

View attachment 71606

Sorry, but all that doesn't address my quote above.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
David Davidovich said:

Also, I forgot to mention that what you said almost seems to imply that God kind of had to keep trying and trying to bring our current reality into existence... until he finally got it right.

No, I would word it this way.

Hashem, being the source of reality works has a process of establishing reality in ways that are completely beyond and different than what a human would come up with. Also, the Torah being written in the language of humanity, in Hebrew, uses terms that can be understood by anyone but can investigated by those who need more.

So, it sounds like God or Hashem really can't do anything and everything. But he has to work within certain parameters.

I.e. Hashem was not "trying" to bring our current reality in existance. Hashem simply has a process that benefits our reality in ways that we may not fully understand while being alive. Kind of like we currently benefit from oil and natural gas, all elements that are the result of the life and planetary processes that existed millions of years before our generation. Why that stuff is the process, may be beyond most of us, yet it is a process that benefits us if we use it correctly.

Really? So, you're using an example with fossil fuel? A fuel that is suffocating and destroying our planet? However, you're trying to say that there's a 'correct' way to use it.

We have the ability to understand it and the drive, given by Hashem, to understand as much as we can individually and collectively based on generation and technology.

I don't know. Solar, wind, hydroelectric, or geothermal would have been better examples to me.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
But how could ancient Jewish sources be describing cosmic microwave background radiation when human beings didn't even know what cosmic microwave background radiation was until the year 1964?

Because, the Torah was given as a written and oral format from Hashem - the source of reality. The oral Torah explains these issues going back about 2,000 years.

Besides, ancient civilizations appear to have been more advanced that some modern western scholars let on. There are some think that this concept is a mistake.

 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Shuny, I am baffled why you continue to argue with me. We are not going to agree. You have a religious belief that the universe always existed, so you filter everything with that idea. I accept the standard scientific theory that the universe had a beginning--the big bang

The universe having a beginning does not, in any way, contradict the notion that the universe has always existed.


The beginning of the universe = the beginning of time.
Always = for all of time.

Go back in time. Pick ANY moment in time. Go ahead. ANY MOMENT IN TIME.

Was there a universe at that time?
Yes. Yes, there was.

At any moment IN TIME, the universe existed.
Hence, the universe always existed.
And it began when time began.
 
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