Why Didn't the Universe Always Exist?

[Ben Dhyan]

You have been talking about "conscious" and about "consciousness", as in being aware or awareness. That's different from thinking, learning or understanding.

Biologists, in particular neuroscience, have mapped out the brain functions as to what control what, what process what, and so on, especially those organs or tissues of nerves that provide senses to human, as well as other animals.

And as I am not a biologist or neurologist, I am only focusing on consciousness in general, as to which living organisms are conscious, and which are not.

What I have learned is that all vertebrates are conscious. As humans are tetrapod vertebrates, humans have something in common with other tetrapod vertebrates that provide then awareness through their senses, namely nervous systems:

• Central Nervous System (eg brain & spinal cord)
• and the sensory receptors, nerves in the tissues and organs that provided senses.

What the different parts (cortices, hence sensory cortex) of the brains do, is process those sensory information that the sensory receptors have picked up.

For invertebrates, many have nervous systems (eg brains) as well as sensory functions, but there are others that don't, instead their nervous systems would be either nerve rings or nerve nets, which provided either full or limited consciousness.

Then there are plants, fungi, protists, bacteria & archaea that have no consciousness at all, but they are alive or they have potential to reproduce. So consciousness play no part for these living organisms.

Those are the fact, biological facts.

What you have, are not facts, but your own personal opinion, belief, worldview, or whatever you want to call it.

You can meditate & still your mind, all you want, none of that provide any insight about the natural world, let alone about the Universe.

So if humans are conscious because of their nervous systems, then why would there need to be a "precursor"?

If you think there is a precursor, that's what you are claiming, then it is up to either show evidence or demonstrate it. Something that you cannot do, except to conceptualise. Your concept of conscious is nothing more than just opinions. The Universe being conscious is one of those opinions you have.

Because if there was no precursor to a human being, they just appeared on the scene, how?

 

[YoursTrue]

Well then, show me their explanation of the first stage of emergent awareness?

When I took biology in school, I remember distinctly that the teacher explained that animals have an instinctive reaction to stimuli that may be perceived as dangerous. It's fight or flight. It's not considered part of the thought process. As in consciousness. Scientists may have an explanation for that about whatever it is. The other day there was a water beetle of the horribly large kind in my bathroom. When it sensed me the thing stood still. Very still. I reached for a bug killer and suddenly the thing ran. I am very sure it did not know or think I was going for the bug killer but when it suddenly ran I instinctively yelled oh! Because I was frightened and wasn't expecting it. So now -- go figure, I don't want to analyze it now but I put down bug traps and hope these little buggers don't think too much about what they are and will walk into them. I hope so. If they don't, I'll put a few more down.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well then, show me their explanation of the first stage of emergent awareness?

Talk with a biologist. But very early on was just the development of neural pathways. At that point organisms could react to stimuli but that does not mean that they were aware in any way at all.

Once again, you have to properly define the terms that you are using to make any demands and you will not even do that.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Talk with a biologist. But very early on was just the development of neural pathways. At that point organisms could react to stimuli but that does not mean that they were aware in any way at all.

Once again, you have to properly define the terms that you are using to make any demands and you will not even do that.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[gnostic]

Because if there was no precursor to a human being, they just appeared on the scene, how?

As I had said before (earlier post).

Al living organisms that are tetrapod vertebrates are conscious, that would include all mammals, extant and extinct species, are all conscious organisms, so that would include all Homo species.

So that would mean Homo sapiens that have evolved from earlier extinct species, Homo heidelbergensis, and the Homo erectus, and they were all conscious “human”.

So every humans born, were all conscious. So if you were referring to “precursors” of earlier species, then the Homo heidelbergensis were that “precursor“. But if you believe that the precursor was God or spirit, then it is nothing but superstition.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

As I had said before (earlier post).

Al living organisms that are tetrapod vertebrates are conscious, that would include all mammals, extant and extinct species, are all conscious organisms, so that would include all Homo species.

So that would mean Homo sapiens that have evolved from earlier extinct species, Homo heidelbergensis, and the Homo erectus, and they were all conscious “human”.

So every humans born, were all conscious. So if you were referring to “precursors” of earlier species, then the Homo heidelbergensis were that “precursor“. But if you believe that the precursor was God or spirit, then it is nothing but superstition.

We are not connecting, I know what you and SZ are saying, but I don't see how it is relevant to my point.

 

[gnostic]

Because if there was no precursor to a human being, they just appeared on the scene, how?

As I had said before (earlier post).

Al living organisms that are tetrapod vertebrates are conscious, that would include all mammals, extant and extinct species, are all conscious organisms, so that would include all Homo species.

So that would mean Homo sapiens that have evolved from earlier extinct species, Homo heidelbergensis, and the Homo erectus, and they were all conscious “human”.

So every humans born, were all conscious. So if you were referring to “precursors” of earlier species, then the Homo heidelbergensis were that “precursor“.

But if you believe that the precursor was God or spirit, then it is nothing but superstition.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

As I had said before (earlier post).

Al living organisms that are tetrapod vertebrates are conscious, that would include all mammals, extant and extinct species, are all conscious organisms, so that would include all Homo species.

So that would mean Homo sapiens that have evolved from earlier extinct species, Homo heidelbergensis, and the Homo erectus, and they were all conscious “human”.

So every humans born, were all conscious. So if you were referring to “precursors” of earlier species, then the Homo heidelbergensis were that “precursor“.

But if you believe that the precursor was God or spirit, then it is nothing but superstition.

Is the universe aware?
Is the Earth aware?
Is a man aware?
Is a molecule aware?
Is a sub-atomic particle aware?
Is dark energy aware?

 

[RestlessSoul]

But we can see consciousness naturally arising. What makes you think that science cannot show that? They already have done so. Perhaps you are using some strange definition of "conscious".

Please show how consciousness arises from matter. And when you’ve done that, go and collect your Nobel Prize.

 

[gnostic]

Is the universe aware?
Is the Earth aware?
Is a man aware?
Is a molecule aware?
Is a sub-atomic particle aware?
Is dark energy aware?

Unlikely.

Unlikely.

Yes.

No.

No.

Don’t know. Highly unlikely.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Unlikely.

Unlikely.

Yes.

No.

No.

Don’t know. Highly unlikely.

Then you apparently believe that human awareness arose from non-awareness. That's my point, how could awareness possibly emerge from non-awareness, either from outside or inside the human.

 

[gnostic]

Then you apparently believe that human awareness arose from non-awareness. That's my point, how could awareness possibly emerge from non-awareness, either from outside or inside the human.

You still not getting.

ALL TETRAPOD VERTEBRATES HAVE CONSCIOUSNESS DUE TO THEIR RESPECTIVE BIOLOGY…​

…including human consciousness exist because of their biology (from their Nervous Systems).​

Consciousness didn’t come from nothing - it is inbuilt into Nervous Systems.

I cannot be any clearer than that!!!!

 

[Subduction Zone]

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Are you being serious? If you are you just lost the debate. Think about it. You need to be able to support what you mean by awareness and consciousness.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Is the universe aware?
Is the Earth aware?
Is a man aware?
Is a molecule aware?
Is a sub-atomic particle aware?
Is dark energy aware?

When you use terms that you cannot define no one can answer your questions for you. By my standards only a man is aware in all of your examples.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You still not getting.

ALL TETRAPOD VERTEBRATES HAVE CONSCIOUSNESS DUE TO THEIR RESPECTIVE BIOLOGY…​

…including human consciousness exist because of their biology (from their Nervous Systems).​

Consciousness didn’t come from nothing - it is inbuilt into Nervous Systems.

I cannot be any clearer than that!!!!

I get that TETRAPOD VERTEBRATES are aware.

But do you get that all the parts that comprise the TETRAPOD VERTEBRATES have no awareness, how can non-awareness, in whatever quantity and combination, produce awareness?

Please explain how you think this possible?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

When you use terms that you cannot define no one can answer your questions for you. By my standards only a man is aware in all of your examples.

Aware means to know, conscious, aware, etc., it is not confined to just human experience.
For example, here is a reference to a scientific article on Electron consciousness.
Conscious Control of an Electron | Bryan | Journal of Consciousness Exploration & Research

 

[Subduction Zone]

Aware means to know, conscious, aware, etc., it is not confined to just human experience.
For example, here is a reference to a scientific article on Electron consciousness.
Conscious Control of an Electron | Bryan | Journal of Consciousness Exploration & Research

Sorry, but that looks like pure nonsense.

 

[gnostic]

I get that TETRAPOD VERTEBRATES are aware.

But do you get that all the parts that comprise the TETRAPOD VERTEBRATES have no awareness, how can non-awareness, in whatever quantity and combination, produce awareness?

Please explain how you think this possible?

They all have consciousness & awareness, because THEIR BIOLOGY ALL HAVE

​

CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEMS​

& SENSORY NERVOUS SYSTEMS.​

How many times must I say it, before you bloody get it?

Man, are you daft!

In mammals, including humans, they have the following Sensory Nervous Systems that connect their sensory receptors to the portions of the brains that process the sensory stimuli:

SOMATOSENSORY SYSTEM:​

Receptors:​

• mechanoreceptors that provide sense of touch;
• thermoreceptors that detect temperature;
• nociceptors that sense pains & damages

Somatosensory Cortex: the cortex that processes the stimuli from each of those above receptors.​

​

VISUAL SYSTEM:​

Receptors: photoreceptors are the nerves within the eyes that provide vision, detect colours.​

Visual Cortex​

​

AUDITORY SYSTEM:​

Receptors: the mechanoreceptors of the ears that detect sound pressures in the medium (eg air), that include the eardrums and the inner ear’s cochlea that turns those pressures into electrochemical signals​

Auditory Cortex: the cortex that processed the electrochemical signals into sounds.​

​

OLFACTORY SYSTEM:​

Receptors: the chemoreceptors that (within the nose) that detect gases that have smells.​

Olfactory cortices: several parts of the brains, including the primary olfactory cortex that processed stimuli of gases​

​

GUSTATORY SYSTEM:​

Receptors: the chemoreceptors - the taste buds in the tongue that detect stimuli or sensation of food or liquid​

Gustatory Cortex: portions of the brain that processed taste from the mouth and tongue.​

​

VESTIBULAR SYSTEM:​

Receptors: the mechanoreceptors that are detected & coordinated the motions of one’s body, with the inner ear’s 3 semicircular canals & the vestibule that provide the sense of balance; the vestibular system also coordinates with the eyes; the canals and vestibule has liquid within, so when the liquid are imbalanced, person may experiences dizziness or vertigo & nausea.​

Vestibular Cortex: the cortex that processes the signals from the ear’s canals & vestibules.​

All of these sensory systems are what provide consciousness to a person; it is built into their biology, as long as he or she alive.

The question is why do you insist on talking about "non consciousness" or "non awareness"?

I have repeatedly talk about the biology of conscious organisms, most particular on human consciousness, based on what we can understand their biology. There are no single precursor, their consciousness are builtin their sensory nervous systems, I am content to leave it at that.

You want more, except that I have already given you my answers. I am fed up with you repeating the same stupid questions, as if I have not answer them. Stop repeating the damn non-awareness BS!

 

[Ben Dhyan]

When you use terms that you cannot define no one can answer your questions for you. By my standards only a man is aware in all of your examples.

It may come as a surprise, I was addressing a man, and he understood and answered.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

They all have consciousness & awareness, because THEIR BIOLOGY ALL HAVE

​

CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEMS​

& SENSORY NERVOUS SYSTEMS.​

How many times must I say it, before you bloody get it?

Man, are you daft!

In mammals, including humans, they have the following Sensory Nervous Systems that connect their sensory receptors to the portions of the brains that process the sensory stimuli:

SOMATOSENSORY SYSTEM:​

Receptors:​

• mechanoreceptors that provide sense of touch;
• thermoreceptors that detect temperature;
• nociceptors that sense pains & damages

Somatosensory Cortex: the cortex that processes the stimuli from each of those above receptors.​

​

VISUAL SYSTEM:​

Receptors: photoreceptors are the nerves within the eyes that provide vision, detect colours.​

Visual Cortex​

​

AUDITORY SYSTEM:​

Receptors: the mechanoreceptors of the ears that detect sound pressures in the medium (eg air), that include the eardrums and the inner ear’s cochlea that turns those pressures into electrochemical signals​

Auditory Cortex: the cortex that processed the electrochemical signals into sounds.​

​

OLFACTORY SYSTEM:​

Receptors: the chemoreceptors that (within the nose) that detect gases that have smells.​

Olfactory cortices: several parts of the brains, including the primary olfactory cortex that processed stimuli of gases​

​

GUSTATORY SYSTEM:​

Receptors: the chemoreceptors - the taste buds in the tongue that detect stimuli or sensation of food or liquid​

Gustatory Cortex: portions of the brain that processed taste from the mouth and tongue.​

​

VESTIBULAR SYSTEM:​

Receptors: the mechanoreceptors that are detected & coordinated the motions of one’s body, with the inner ear’s 3 semicircular canals & the vestibule that provide the sense of balance; the vestibular system also coordinates with the eyes; the canals and vestibule has liquid within, so when the liquid are imbalanced, person may experiences dizziness or vertigo & nausea.​

Vestibular Cortex: the cortex that processes the signals from the ear’s canals & vestibules.​

All of these sensory systems are what provide consciousness to a person; it is built into their biology, as long as he or she alive.

How many times do I have to tell you that I understand the biology, my question is, since you believe that sub-atomic particles, atoms, molecules, etc., have no consciousness, then no matter how they could come together, there could never be consciousness. But there is, so that means there is some intrinsic awareness in all things.